responding to common objections to bible

[Kadagar_AV]

Pipe down - without us there'd be no priests' daughters.

So be quiet and grateful.

As much as I like the intention of what you say... I am for a world where girls sexuality wouldn't have to be stigmatised by their upbringing.

The christian church view on sex create more problems than they solve, imho.

[Empire*Of*Media]

Oh mY God !! Why you Think Catholicism Is The Main Christianity ?!?! Catholicism was made by some selfish priests & & Cardinals & popes in 500 AD !!

We Have a better Christianity like Protestanism & Armenian Orthodox and the extincted ARYAN CHRISTIANITY !! They Believe that Jesus was a great person sent by god ! simply like Gandhi & Mother Teresa & ..... !! How a Wise man can accept that Jesus is GOD ?!? and Their power equal ?!! but they created Laws and som nonsense shits about Christianity (like that Priests & Nuns Never should marry!!)

Everything Good that would go to Europe & Western, would be Preversed & Corrupted in Those Times(Specially Ancient Rome & Greece), Even Christianity !! (and even Mithrayism!!)

[Sigurd]

Oh mY God !! Why you Think Catholicism Is The Main Christianity ?!?! Catholicism was made by some selfish priests & & Cardinals & popes in 500 AD !!

We Have a better Christianity like Protestanism & Armenian Orthodox and the extincted ARYAN CHRISTIANITY !! They Believe that Jesus was a great person sent by god ! simply like Gandhi & Mother Teresa & ..... !! How a Wise man can accept that Jesus is GOD ?!? and Their power equal ?!! but they created Laws and som nonsense shits about Christianity (like that Priests & Nuns Never should marry!!)

Everything Good that would go to Europe & Western, would be Preversed & Corrupted in Those Times(Specially Ancient Rome & Greece), Even Christianity !! (and even Mithrayism!!)

It would help if you quote the post you object to. I can't see that any of us have promoted Catholicism as the main Christian faith.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Oh mY God !! Why you Think Catholicism Is The Main Christianity ?!?! Catholicism was made by some selfish priests & & Cardinals & popes in 500 AD !!

We Have a better Christianity like Protestanism & Armenian Orthodox and the extincted ARYAN CHRISTIANITY !! They Believe that Jesus was a great person sent by god ! simply like Gandhi & Mother Teresa & ..... !! How a Wise man can accept that Jesus is GOD ?!? and Their power equal ?!! but they created Laws and som nonsense shits about Christianity (like that Priests & Nuns Never should marry!!)

Everything Good that would go to Europe & Western, would be Preversed & Corrupted in Those Times(Specially Ancient Rome & Greece), Even Christianity !! (and even Mithrayism!!)

That's absurd.

[Conradus]

It would help if you quote the post you object to. I can't see that any of us have promoted Catholicism as the main Christian faith.

Isn't it the largest denomination, in terms of numbers of believers?

[Rhyfelwyr]

I believe the general theory for most of the last 1800~ years is that one of the witnesses is Elias and the other Enoch.

Maybe so, I guess it's just speculation though. Maybe I've been lazy in just going along with the Evangelical trend of thinking it is Elijah and Moses - come to mention it I've no idea why we set on those two.

agreed fully, but do you see a differences in a spiritual gift and new scripture being written?. These gifts were taken after apostle age as well. They were there to confirm who was from god or of god/holy spirit in early church. You can have gist of profacy in nt apostle times,without being a prophet.

I thought your claim was that Jesus was the last prophet of any sort - rather than anything relating in particular to scripture.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Maybe so, I guess it's just speculation though. Maybe I've been lazy in just going along with the Evangelical trend of thinking it is Elijah and Moses - come to mention it I've no idea why we set on those two.

Elijah and Enoch are the only Prophets recorded as ascending to heaven alive. Most theologians agree that Moses died, although it is euphemistically stated, because no other fate is recorded for him. Enoch was carried up in a whirlwind and Elijah rode a chariot of fire into heaven.

In traditional Christian theology, Moses would have been in Hell, possibly still is.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Elijah and Enoch are the only Prophets recorded as ascending to heaven alive. Most theologians agree that Moses died, although it is euphemistically stated, because no other fate is recorded for him. Enoch was carried up in a whirlwind and Elijah rode a chariot of fire into heaven.

Doesn't it only say that Elijah went to heaven (and even then there could be some subtlety lost in translation, since Jesus says no man has ascended to heaven)? We are not told where Enoch went. Still, you may well be right it could be those two - maybe we'll find out at the time!

In traditional Christian theology, Moses would have been in Hell, possibly still is.

What sort of traditional Christian theologian says this?!

I'm pretty sure the standard Protestant respose is that the Old Testament saints were saved by faith in Jesus the same way Christians have been since the Resurrection.

And I'm not sure but I think Catholics say that Moses etc went to heaven after the Resurrection, having been in purgatory or Abraham's Bosom or whatever beforehand.

[total relism]

Clearly Agabus was not just confirming what was from God and what was not.. He gave a specific prophecy about what would happen to Paul.
The Bible name them prophets. All after Christ's death. I am not even interpreting these scriptures. You said Jesus was the last prophet. Yet the Bible name several people prophets in Acts.. the book written about the time after Christ's ministry. And it is you who keep bringing in Mormons here... I didn't even mention them in my last post.
Does the Bible name these men as prophets or not?

Maybe so, I guess it's just speculation though. Maybe I've been lazy in just going along with the Evangelical trend of thinking it is Elijah and Moses - come to mention it I've no idea why we set on those two.



I thought your claim was that Jesus was the last prophet of any sort - rather than anything relating in particular to scripture.

as i said b-4 i make distinction, it was my fault falsely assuming others had my starting meaning of word so my bad. When i think of prophets i think who is of god who is not, Muhammad, jospeh smith etc that was what brought us on this talk. When i think prophet, i think adding scripture, not a early spiritual gift given to true believers [no longer] for a short time proving the work of god/holy spirit in nt times. Bible is done,no more prophets adding scripture, revaluations was last.

.In traditional Christian theology, Moses would have been in Hell, possibly still is.

matt 17 1-11

hebrews 11 23-29

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

What sort of traditional Christian theologian says this?!

I'm pretty sure the standard Protestant respose is that the Old Testament saints were saved by faith in Jesus the same way Christians have been since the Resurrection.

And I'm not sure but I think Catholics say that Moses etc went to heaven after the Resurrection, having been in purgatory or Abraham's Bosom or whatever beforehand.

In the Catholic Medieval theology (so that's the first 1500 years) the Jewish prophets were in Hell, though possibly without torment, until Jesus freed them when he himself entered Hell.

The Protestant response - method of saving aside - would need to be the same. Nobody gets into heaven (dead) until after Christ's Death.

Now - the "possibly still is" comes from the fact that certain Christian sects interpret entry into heaven as only coming after the Apocalypse -in which case everyone who dies is currently in some kind of Limbo, in Hell, because there's nowhere else to go.

[Sigurd]

In the Catholic Medieval theology (so that's the first 1500 years) the Jewish prophets were in Hell, though possibly without torment, until Jesus freed them when he himself entered Hell.

Which is quite aligned to Rhyf's belief in Abraham's bosom. The spirits in prison/paradise.
But you have the canonical claim that Elijah and Moses appeared to Peter, James and John on the mount of transfiguration as TR referenced in his last post. This was before Christ's death. Now if Moses couldn't be released from Hell/Paradise before Christ's death, then you must assume that he didn't die, like Elijah and Enoch.

About Enoch: Genesis 5:24 claim that God took him.
The LDS faith (sorry TR) claim that Enoch with his entire city of Zion was taken from the earth and will at a future day return with all its citizens. Not entirely baseless as you will find references for this in the Apocrypha (2 Baruch , Apocryphon of John).

Jude in the New Testament quotes Enoch..

It was to them that Enoch, the seventh in descent from Adam, directed his prophecy when he said: 'I saw the Lord come with his myriads of angels, to bring all men to judgement and to convict all the godless of all the godless deeds they had committed, and of all the defiant words which godless sinners had spoken against him.'
(Jude:14-15)

The book (Book of Enoch?) this quote is from, is lost. A missing scripture that was quote-worthy in the early church.

[total relism]

In the Catholic Medieval theology (so that's the first 1500 years) the Jewish prophets were in Hell, though possibly without torment, until Jesus freed them when he himself entered Hell.

The Protestant response - method of saving aside - would need to be the same. Nobody gets into heaven (dead) until after Christ's Death.

Now - the "possibly still is" comes from the fact that certain Christian sects interpret entry into heaven as only coming after the Apocalypse -in which case everyone who dies is currently in some kind of Limbo, in Hell, because there's nowhere else to go.

[/B]

All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.
revaluations 13.8

[Pannonian]

[/B]

All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.
revaluations 13.8

There's the book of revaluations again. Can anyone explain to me what its central tenet is, and how it affects the themes of Christianity?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

There's the book of revaluations again. Can anyone explain to me what its central tenet is, and how it affects the themes of Christianity?

It's actually really interesting when you read it in it's literary context (Classical literature and dream-visions).

The most interesting thing is that John describes everything in two dimensions, rather than three, which implies he's recounting images he's seen rather than events he's "experienced" for lack of a better word.

Basically though - the world is going to end now that Christ is dead, and then God will decide who goes to heaven and who doesn't. The rest is window dressing.

[Greyblades]

It is interesting to read a first person account (kinda sorta) of what happens when god stops caring about human free will and decides to clean the slate.

You know, in the narritive of the bible, I wonder if god did that sort of thing every time he did a do-over, and Noah just missed it.

[HopAlongBunny]

Unless its about what humans will "freely create"; liberated by Christ yet refusing to follow the path of peace.

[Pannonian]

It's actually really interesting when you read it in it's literary context (Classical literature and dream-visions).

The most interesting thing is that John describes everything in two dimensions, rather than three, which implies he's recounting images he's seen rather than events he's "experienced" for lack of a better word.

Basically though - the world is going to end now that Christ is dead, and then God will decide who goes to heaven and who doesn't. The rest is window dressing.

That's the Book of Revelations, isn't it? I'm wondering what the Book of Revaluations describes, and what its literary, cultural and historical context is. Perhaps it was written after a particularly bad bout of inflation during the late Roman empire, and the government wanted to enlist the church's help in propagating a new currency standard by finding support for it in the bible.

[/B]

All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.
revaluations 13.8

In that context, the lamb in total relism's quote could refer to the old debased currency that was increasingly adulterated with base metals and was thus purged from the economy ("slain from the creation of the world"), and the beast whom all inhabitants of the earth shall worship could refer to the brand spanking new currency.

[Rhyfelwyr]

It is interesting to read a first person account (kinda sorta) of what happens when god stops caring about human free will and decides to clean the slate.

I expect that what you consider to be 'free will' is really no freedom at all.

[drone]

I'm wondering what the Book of Revaluations describes, and what its literary, cultural and historical context is. Perhaps it was written after a particularly bad bout of inflation during the late Roman empire, and the government wanted to enlist the church's help in propagating a new currency standard by finding support for it in the bible.

If I'm not mistaken, it was written by Marcus Aurelius's accountant after he came across some mushrooms during the conquest of the Germanic tribes.

[Papewaio]

What is free will?

Is it the ability to choose without influence of an outside agency?
The ability to choose without a predetermined outcome based on fixed internal rules?

Is free will an illusion or does a RNG break the first order illusion to replace it with a second order one?

[Beskar]

Free Will is arguably the internal decision created in the mind. However, there are many external influences which can affect the internal judgement, such as social constructions: conformity, authority, etc artificial inducers: drugs (medicine and illegal), shock therapy.

So one could hypothetical argue that whilst we have Free Will, people would choose free tasty cookies over the contents of a public toilet. So the feedback from the decisions created by free will are statistically measurable and thus, could be altered for you to produce a more desired outcome, such as replacing the public toilet option for £20.

[Greyblades]

I expect that what you consider to be 'free will' is really no freedom at all.

Hey, don't judge me, I'm only parroting what they teach me.

"Mr priest why doesn't god stop people from being bad"
"Why my son, it's because god loves us and doesn't want to infringe on our free will."
"Oh, but why does god make the pharaoh harden his heart when he's asked to free the jews?"
"Just shut up and drink your communion wine already kid, you're holding up the line."

[Pannonian]

If I'm not mistaken, it was written by Marcus Aurelius's accountant after he came across some mushrooms during the conquest of the Germanic tribes.

I remember that one. It was the companion piece to Meditations, titled Hallucinations.

[Kadagar_AV]

Free Will is arguably the internal decision created in the mind. However, there are many external influences which can affect the internal judgement, such as social constructions: conformity, authority, etc artificial inducers: drugs (medicine and illegal), shock therapy.

So one could hypothetical argue that whilst we have Free Will, people would choose free tasty cookies over the contents of a public toilet. So the feedback from the decisions created by free will are statistically measurable and thus, could be altered for you to produce a more desired outcome, such as replacing the public toilet option for £20.

How did God plan the free will, together with the brain altering parasites that has infected roughly 50% of the human population?

[Sigurd]

What is free will?

Is it the ability to choose without influence of an outside agency?
The ability to choose without a predetermined outcome based on fixed internal rules?

Is free will an illusion or does a RNG break the first order illusion to replace it with a second order one?

In religion, free will is the ability to choose evil over good. "I give unto you a commandment, but you may act according to your own conscience". Free will does however not exempt from any consequences.

[Papewaio]

Well you couldn't be held responsible without free will.

[HopAlongBunny]

But you can be held responsible for imperfect knowledge?

[Kadagar_AV]

But you can be held responsible for imperfect knowledge?

If you have some sort of internet connection, in many situations.... YES!

[Papewaio]

But you can be held responsible for imperfect knowledge?

Married? I'm pretty sure saying "I didn't know" is a winning position with the wife...

[HopAlongBunny]

It just strikes me as ironic to have a "perfect" god, create imperfect beings, and then threaten to burn them in Hell for imperfections built into them.

Hmmm, not ironic i guess: cruel/sadistic perhaps.