Why Does Scotland Want To Be Independent?

[LittleGrizzly]

Gawain never really got back into it after his brother was murdered (r/l)
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WTF?!

Always enjoyed debating with Gawain, was as hard headed as me just a hell of a lot smarter... always wondered what happened to him and absolutely gutted to find out that was the reason for it. Wasn't too bad at Total War either (I am guessing one or two of us actually played the games)

Rhyfelwyr enjoyed reading the wiki but it doesn't actually make clear that he was killed by the state, just some evidence that possibly supports the theory... is it a commonly held perception that he was killed by the state?

Edit: Not doubting you or claiming more knowledge, all I know of the guy came from the wiki article you linked, just curious.

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i just dissaponted with people in so called 1st world! i thought there is a better place! i didnt know there too, is a place that they tell you undirectly how to live & Believe!
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Us 1st worlders are just as bad for telling people how to live and what to believe we have just become clever enough to make it seem like it isn't so...

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Gawain never really got back into it after his brother was murdered (r/l)
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WTF?!

He was online briefly after months of absence and explained why (though not it great detail). It was very saddening.

[Sarmatian]

The discourse in the backroom has sunk so very low from it's heyday about 8-9 years ago.

However this thread is priceless, on the same level as that Backtia thingy. Except that was funny.

This is just pointless and sad.

We really need to reform our youth setup. We haven't had any decent youngsters in years.

[HoreTore]

We really need to reform our youth setup. We haven't had any decent youngsters in years.

Try snagging some from Zamalek. They usually have a few....

[Rhyfelwyr]

Rhyfelwyr enjoyed reading the wiki but it doesn't actually make clear that he was killed by the state, just some evidence that possibly supports the theory... is it a commonly held perception that he was killed by the state?

It's pretty much commonly accepted by people of all persuasions.

[johnhughthom]

Really? Must be another Northern Ireland and another Billy Wright. Only commonly accepted thing with most people I know, Catholic and Protestant, is the guy was complete scumbag and no loss to the world.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

It's probably commonly accepted in Rhy's part of Scotland.

[Empire*Of*Media]

Rhyfelwyr enjoyed reading the wiki but it doesn't actually make clear that he was killed by the state, just some evidence that possibly supports the theory... is it a commonly held perception that he was killed by the state?

Edit: Not doubting you or claiming more knowledge, all I know of the guy came from the wiki article you linked, just curious.

.................................................................
i just dissaponted with people in so called 1st world! i thought there is a better place! i didnt know there too, is a place that they tell you undirectly how to live & Believe!
.................................................................

Us 1st worlders are just as bad for telling people how to live and what to believe we have just become clever enough to make it seem like it isn't so...

yes indeed !! but some few like you are clever to know, but most dont know, and if they be said, they just cant understand and run away from thinking of it !!



and at all, i dont know why some want to clean or legalize the English Crown's hidden Crimes & Colonizations !!

[Pannonian]

yes indeed !! but some few like you are clever to know, but most dont know, and if they be said, they just cant understand and run away from thinking of it !!



and at all, i dont know why some want to clean or legalize the English Crown's hidden Crimes & Colonizations !!

It must be very well hidden for the history books to say that the English invited the Scottish king to rule over them circa 1600 AD when in fact (as you have enlightened us) it was the English who occupied Scotland around that time. Damn the English Crown and their hiding of crimes and colonisations! Kurdistan 4eva!!!!!!!

[gaelic cowboy]

Really? Must be another Northern Ireland and another Billy Wright. Only commonly accepted thing with most people I know, Catholic and Protestant, is the guy was complete scumbag and no loss to the world.

He made enemies on both sides so its not a surprise that he was topped in prison at all at all, six months after his death an the LVF called a ceasefire.

[Rhyfelwyr]

It's probably commonly accepted in Rhy's part of Scotland.

I based what I said on what Northern Irish people have said to me. All Protestants to be fair, but from different parts of the spectrum. Granted, I don't know any that would identify as liberal or Alliance-types, but I think johnhughthom's circle must be pretty narrow to have that conclusion.

[johnhughthom]

Of course, that must be it Rhy, you must have a wider circle of acquiantances from Northern Ireland, despite my being born here, being brought up here and working here for most of my adult life.

I'm not saying there wasn't government collusion, I'm just saying it's far from accepted amongst the circle of people I know (however big or small it may be).

I'm guessing you've spoken to a lot of people who describe Billy Wright as some sort of Loyalist hero? I was brought up in a Loyalist housing estate in what is a mainly middle class Protestant town (city now, apparently). For most of my youth there was little happened in the town, a few murders (including people I knew both murdering and being murdered) and some bombings, but generally the troubles almost seemed to be something that took place somewhere else. That changed for a while because of Billy Wright, there was a lot of violence, intimidation and tension around during the UVF/LVF feud, and it was the only time I was ever wary walking home at night and didn't feel completely safe in my community. A community that was never really troubled before Billy Wright decided he knew what was best for it.

But sure Rhy, you know best after speaking to a few people.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Well if you want to play that game, from what you've said I can see I have more first-hand experience with loyalism and loyalists than you do even if you lived there longer. And the area I lived in didn't support Billy's side of the feud so they weren't biased because of that - but they still recognise what happened.

Billy Wright was before my time and my relatives have had their neighbours and workmates killed on either side of that feud and the related feuds (as far as the C Company chain of events was a spinoff), I've actually been at one of their graves because we visited it while paying respects to another relative there and it really brings home the reality. Everyone has their own theories on who did what and who did it first, so if they can't agree with first-hand experience (by that I mean living there at the time) then who am I to judge?

For all that I have only ever heard people say that Wright's death was a government job.

But I guess you know best, when, even by your own admission, you have pretty much no experience with any of that.

[johnhughthom]

For a pretty intelligent chap, I don't quite understand how you got my admitting little first hand experience with loyalism and loyalists, but I'm not going to continue this, quite frankly, pathetic little debate any further.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

yes indeed !! but some few like you are clever to know, but most dont know, and if they be said, they just cant understand and run away from thinking of it !!



and at all, i dont know why some want to clean or legalize the English Crown's hidden Crimes & Colonizations !!

I suggest you have a read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_VI_and_I

Awesome Scottish King takes over England - English rejoice (except Roman Catholics who try to kill him.)

[Greyblades]

I suggest you have a read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_VI_and_I

Awesome Scottish King takes over England - English rejoice (except Roman Catholics who try to kill him.)

To be fair the roman catholics had been trying to kill every King of England since a certain Henry.

[InsaneApache]

For a pretty intelligent chap, I don't quite understand how you got my admitting little first hand experience with loyalism and loyalists, but I'm not going to continue this, quite frankly, pathetic little debate any further.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Oh come now, by the time we get to the Georgian "talk to the trees" dynasty, the "you're a prod we must kill you" bit was pretty well in the dust bin. The House of Windsor doesn't spend time dodging Jesuit wetwork teams.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Oh come now, by the time we get to the Georgian "talk to the trees" dynasty, the "you're a prod we must kill you" bit was pretty well in the dust bin. The House of Windsor doesn't spend time dodging Jesuit wetwork teams.

That's just what you want us to think!

Someone hold the Papist down while I set fire to his feet.

[gaelic cowboy]

To be fair the roman catholics had been trying to kill every King of England since a certain Henry.

Well they kinda deserve to have there heads chopped off what with famines, pillage, war and general beastliness.

[Greyblades]

Well they kinda deserve to have there heads chopped off what with famines, pillage, war and general beastliness.

If you say so, though the famine I see as more the responsability of landowners and the nobility than the monarch.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Well they kinda deserve to have there heads chopped off what with famines, pillage, war and general beastliness.

It's not that you can't blame the King - but you have to blame the Irish Lords planting all those potatoes too.

[Shaka_Khan]

It must be very well hidden for the history books to say that the English invited the Scottish king to rule over them circa 1600 AD when in fact (as you have enlightened us) it was the English who occupied Scotland around that time. Damn the English Crown and their hiding of crimes and colonisations! Kurdistan 4eva!!!!!!!

I could apply this for a man - woman relationship. Have the girlfriend take over my house and my bank account. Then she will stay.

[Pannonian]

I could apply this for a man - woman relationship. Have the girlfriend take over my house and my bank account. Then she will stay.

To use your analogy, a Scottish lass was in charge of the house as recently as 2010, and she'd been in charge of the bank account since 1997. And she still whines about exploitation and wants to break up.

[Visor]

To use your analogy, a Scottish lass was in charge of the house as recently as 2010, and she'd been in charge of the bank account since 1997. And she still whines about exploitation and wants to break up.

Is this not normal or something?

[gaelic cowboy]

If you say so, though the famine I see as more the responsability of landowners and the nobility than the monarch.

It's not that you can't blame the King - but you have to blame the Irish Lords planting all those potatoes too.

Eh I think you two have missed the fact I was talking generically here about assorted nastiness all around the empire.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Eh I think you two have missed the fact I was talking generically here about assorted nastiness all around the empire.

Ah, in that case I blame the Cabinet.

[gaelic cowboy]

Ah, in that case I blame the Cabinet.

You can blame George the 3rd for up the Act of Union as it wasn't properly implemented because of him. As a result several million people were left out of a political setlement just when there numbers were ready to increase.

When people have no voice, less rights and no access to whatever your havin yerself they generally stay poor.

contrast the 1740s with the 1840s both of them famine periods in Ireland one was bad luck the other was basically a national disgrace. The differ was in 1740 the politicians and various head honchos acted to stem the suffering and save there own hides in the process. After the Act of Union it's easier to ignore suffering in Killkelly from your country estate in Kent

[Papewaio]

Yes, because for 2000+ years the world really progressed well under hereditary dictatorship er Royalty and a cabal of the misinformed er Religion leadership.

One would think that minimising the stranglehold anyone individual or group has on the rest of society would be a good thing.

Respecting ones elders is over rated.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Yes, because for 2000+ years the world really progressed well under hereditary dictatorship er Royalty and a cabal of the misinformed er Religion leadership.

One would think that minimising the stranglehold anyone individual or group has on the rest of society would be a good thing.

Respecting ones elders is over rated.

Shut up Dad.