Edward Snowden, Hero or Traitor?
What do you think?
He did not leak anything other governments didn’t already know. He only informed the public of what the US government was doing to its own citizens.
Yet politicians on both sides are calling for his head and saying that they are doing nothing wrong.
Who do you believe?
Education: that which reveals to the wise,
and conceals from the stupid,
the vast limits of their knowledge.
Mark Twain
Re: Edward Snowden, Hero or Traitor?
Delusional narcissist.
Re: Edward Snowden, Hero or Traitor?
Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro
Well, I know which newspaper you read that in.
A nice piece of media based damage control.
To me it is more the open release of the information than the individual, yet they start to work to discredit and vilify the leaker.
Was there ever a time when the people were asked, do you think this is a good idea or is it a step too far?
It s not that it has not been obvious. It has just been one of those things you know they are doing but not saying.
I am guessing most of you don’t really care that your government is becoming a surveillance state.
Education: that which reveals to the wise,
and conceals from the stupid,
the vast limits of their knowledge.
Mark Twain
Re: Edward Snowden, Hero or Traitor?
Calling him a traitor is hypocritical because if it's OK for the government to snoop on its citizens, it's OK for a citizen to snoop on the government.
And for the record I find such a degree of surveillance a little creepy. What perverse motives do they have that they go so far in spying on their citizens?
The horizon is nothing save the limit of our sight.
Re: Edward Snowden, Hero or Traitor?
He didn't put anyone in danger like Assange did, he just revealed something that is worth worrying about. He deserves nothing but respect
Re: Edward Snowden, Hero or Traitor?
The reason that these programs are seen as legal is because there is no way to challenge them.
As the programs are secret, courts, including the Supreme Court, will not grant standing to anyone bringing suite. They can not know what is in the law because it is secret.
Just how cool is that?
Education: that which reveals to the wise,
and conceals from the stupid,
the vast limits of their knowledge.
Mark Twain
Re: Edward Snowden, Hero or Traitor?
While this incident points up that the call data and not the calls are being logged, don’t fool your self. Calls are being recorded.
Perhaps the only ones kept are the ones with keywords in the conversations that trigger a response but all are monitored.
The call data would allow them to link conversations to phone records to know, more or less, just who made the call.
I am sure there are worse things going on, and yes, your computer spies on you too. This is only the tip of a great iceberg.
Education: that which reveals to the wise,
and conceals from the stupid,
the vast limits of their knowledge.
Mark Twain
Re: Edward Snowden, Hero or Traitor?
The US government insists that what it is doing is legal. Classic criminal response; they've rationalized activity that is an obvious affront to law to people not involved in the conspiracy. It is not legal just because they say it is. General warrants without reasonable suspicion to consume all personal effects and spy on people are barred by the constitution. Judges who have signed off on this are criminally corrupt. When government actions break the law, people informing the American people are whistleblowers. Bradley Manning was a traitor, but I support anyone stealing information from our corrupt government for non-terrorist or extra-national related purposes
Americans have an obligation to betray the political elite and the media that supports them. There are 2 parties in Washington. The people and the enemies of the people.
Last edited by ICantSpellDawg; 06-12-2013 at 11:24.
"That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
-Eric "George Orwell" Blair
"If the policy of the government, upon vital questions affecting the whole people, is to be irrevocably fixed by decisions of the Supreme Court...the people will have ceased to be their own rulers, having to that extent practically resigned the government into the hands of that eminent tribunal."
(Lincoln's First Inaugural Address, 1861).
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
Re: Edward Snowden, Hero or Traitor?
Too easy, let them explain how it is still legal if they do it internationally.
Re: Edward Snowden, Hero or Traitor?
This is basically my view as well (minus the Assange bit). Manning also just vomited up reams of information, the vast majority of which did not show any wrongdoing by the US, and thus endangered US policy, relations, and possibly lives for no whistleblowing purposes whatsoever. Regardless of whether he exposed some wrongdoing with some of his data, releasing the rest of it was inexcusable. I will not shed a single tear if he gets life in prison.Assange is a hero. Manning is a traitor. Snowden is a whistleblower. Get it right.
I can buy that Manning is a traitor because he was a Soldier, and swore an Oath, and all that good stuff. Snowden on the other hand was a civilian working for a domestic security agency--the sort of agency that needs whistleblowers the most. I can give twos less what his motives are, whistleblowing is a good thing when you're talking about clandestine domestic security. To consider this guy a traitor we have to put the NSA on the same level as the military. We have to put his non-disclosure agreements on par with the Soldier's oath. I find that a terrifying glimpse into the psychology of the government's bureaucracy.
Snowden is significantly different. He actively selected out the information that he felt was necessary to inform the public about a serious issue. He released only the information that was needed to cover that issue and held back all other information that could have endangered US interests or lives. In addition, he released that information through sources that themselves then did a second round of editing to ensure that the absolute minimum amount of information necessary was released into the public. That is someone who cares a great deal about correcting a problem while doing as little harm as possible to our nation and our people. I hope they just leave the fellow alone, he's not likely to cause any more damage in the future anyway.
Re: Edward Snowden, Hero or Traitor?
Ding ding.
Let me preface this buy saying, I have no delusions that the American government does shady extra legal things. It's part of the territory when you're a government, even more so when you're the superpower basically tasked with the security of your underlings. I know Germany, Canada, and the UK have expressed outrage over this and all over the internet their citizens are quick to claim that they will never do business with America again. Even though their states are perfectly happy with letting the US do their dirty work for them. If your country participated in extraordinary rendition, your country is getting information from the NSA.
I would also like to point out this data mining is really only good for large scale groups and deductive reasoning after they have caught a singular man. Lone wolves will slip though cracks (undoubtedly to the jeers of "CONSPIRACY" to you internet heroes.) while groups that were once large start getting picked off, they will splinter once they get lost among the white noise. It's good in the sense that smaller groups plan smaller attacks due to smaller amounts of resources (generally of course) it's unfortunate in the sense that we will probably have to be dealing with a lot more fertilizer bombs. Of course you get in your car everyday, so I know you're not totally risk averse.
Cyber rights are the next big civil libirties debate. I don't know why it's surprising that the government is doing this stuff. Hell twitter itself is considered public space, obviously your tweets are not the same as your emails or your phone calls. It just goes to illustrate the fact that privacy rights in these spheres are still the wild west and I think a portion of this hand wringing is going because people went crazy with the personal stuff on the cat tubes.
Now to the issue of Snowden himself. Why should I believe a low level IT GED wielding tech guy at some BFE outpost in Honolulu? This is to say nothing of his ridiculous assassination fantasies. I have a couple of power point slides and him claiming he could bug the president. Not to mention he looks like every 28 year old virgin I ever met.
Color me unimpressed with this whole thing
New York Bomb July 4
OMGITSTOATTLYLIKE1984
Last edited by Strike For The South; 06-12-2013 at 17:20.
There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford
My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.
I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.
Re: Edward Snowden, Hero or Traitor?
I will gladly share everything I learned about the comms equipment(or aything else) during my conscript year to anyone who asks.
If I ever get knowledge of any other "national security risks" I'll spill the beans in an instant.
I don't give a crap about either state secrets or national security.
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
Re: Edward Snowden, Hero or Traitor?
\
Literally a hero
BRAVO YOU ARE THE NEW CATO
There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford
My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.
I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.
Re: Edward Snowden, Hero or Traitor?
"Hero" is a bourgeouise concept. I just don't give a crap.
Also, if I can help in any way to make life a little more miserable for our boys in green, I will.
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
Re: Edward Snowden, Hero or Traitor?
\\
The bourgeouise is a bourgeouise concept
There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford
My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.
I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.
Re: Edward Snowden, Hero or Traitor?
What are you trying to accomplish by this?
"And if the people raise a great howl against my barbarity and cruelty, I will answer that war is war and not popularity seeking. If they want peace, they and their relatives must stop the war." - William Tecumseh Sherman
“The market, like the Lord, helps those who help themselves. But unlike the Lord, the market does not forgive those who know not what they do.” - Warren Buffett
Re: Edward Snowden, Hero or Traitor?
Not trying to make our army more competent and capable, that's for sure.
Though considering the fact that I'm one of those soldiers, I doubt it's possible to lower the standards any further. But still, there's no harm in trying!
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
Re: Edward Snowden, Hero or Traitor?
Well considering there are a couple of congressmen trying to get him the death penalty he might have a point, solitary as it may be.
Last edited by Greyblades; 06-12-2013 at 18:25.
Being better than the worst does not inherently make you good. But being better than the rest lets you brag.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Re: Edward Snowden, Hero or Traitor?
This doesn't make any sense. What's your goal?
"And if the people raise a great howl against my barbarity and cruelty, I will answer that war is war and not popularity seeking. If they want peace, they and their relatives must stop the war." - William Tecumseh Sherman
“The market, like the Lord, helps those who help themselves. But unlike the Lord, the market does not forgive those who know not what they do.” - Warren Buffett
Re: Edward Snowden, Hero or Traitor?
Wasting his majesty's pocket money, as I always have.
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
Re: Edward Snowden, Hero or Traitor?
Isn't his majesty on a salary? This just sounds very irrational. Is this just a matter of entertainment(?) or a part of some larger plan?
"And if the people raise a great howl against my barbarity and cruelty, I will answer that war is war and not popularity seeking. If they want peace, they and their relatives must stop the war." - William Tecumseh Sherman
“The market, like the Lord, helps those who help themselves. But unlike the Lord, the market does not forgive those who know not what they do.” - Warren Buffett
Re: Edward Snowden, Hero or Traitor?
"His majesty's pocket money" refers to the defense budget.
Every krone spent on silliness, is a krone well spent.
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
Re: Edward Snowden, Hero or Traitor?
But if you waste what's already allocated, won't they just allocate more to make up for your waste? This seems counterproductive.
"And if the people raise a great howl against my barbarity and cruelty, I will answer that war is war and not popularity seeking. If they want peace, they and their relatives must stop the war." - William Tecumseh Sherman
“The market, like the Lord, helps those who help themselves. But unlike the Lord, the market does not forgive those who know not what they do.” - Warren Buffett
Re: Edward Snowden, Hero or Traitor?
Nope, the Norwegian army starts calling off exercises when money is tight. Happened the year before my service, actually.
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
Re: Edward Snowden, Hero or Traitor?
So, what's the benefit of having an army that is not ready to fight?
"And if the people raise a great howl against my barbarity and cruelty, I will answer that war is war and not popularity seeking. If they want peace, they and their relatives must stop the war." - William Tecumseh Sherman
“The market, like the Lord, helps those who help themselves. But unlike the Lord, the market does not forgive those who know not what they do.” - Warren Buffett
Re: Edward Snowden, Hero or Traitor?
There's no benefit of having an army that is ready to fight.
There's fewer negatives of having an army that's not ready to fight. They'll be less able to kill people, for starters.
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
Re: Edward Snowden, Hero or Traitor?
So, why resort to sabotage? If you're that committed to Norway without an army, won't it make more sense to start a political movement to promote those goals?
"And if the people raise a great howl against my barbarity and cruelty, I will answer that war is war and not popularity seeking. If they want peace, they and their relatives must stop the war." - William Tecumseh Sherman
“The market, like the Lord, helps those who help themselves. But unlike the Lord, the market does not forgive those who know not what they do.” - Warren Buffett
Re: Edward Snowden, Hero or Traitor?
I'm already a part of that.
In the meantime, I have no qualms about screwing around. If I can make life just a little bit more miserable for just one soldier, I feel I've done a good job.
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
Re: Edward Snowden, Hero or Traitor?
Why I think Norway can do without an army?
Because I see 35 billion better ways of spending the 35 billion NOK spent on the army.
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
Re: Edward Snowden, Hero or Traitor?
Won't that discredit your movement? If just one incident like that becomes public, the public opinion will likely turn away from your movement, killing any chance of you ever accomplishing your main goal.
"And if the people raise a great howl against my barbarity and cruelty, I will answer that war is war and not popularity seeking. If they want peace, they and their relatives must stop the war." - William Tecumseh Sherman
“The market, like the Lord, helps those who help themselves. But unlike the Lord, the market does not forgive those who know not what they do.” - Warren Buffett
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