Make it legal and we can regulate it! There will be no more abuses!

[Vuk]

I don't like legal prositituion, but systems which punish the prostitute are infinitely worse. Slap the punishment on the john alone, while giving relevant help to the prostitute.

Or better yet, replace the laws against buying sex by expanding the rape law by defining buying sex from forced prostitutes as rape.

Would you punish the man who buys crack and not the crack dealer? Would you punish the man who bought the stolen artwork and not the fence? What sense does it make to make a commodity illegal (In this case make it illegal for people to commodify their bodies) and then punish the buyer and not the seller.

[HoreTore]

Would you punish the man who buys crack and not the crack dealer? Would you punish the man who bought the stolen artwork and not the fence? What sense does it make to make a commodity illegal (In this case make it illegal for people to commodify their bodies) and then punish the buyer and not the seller.

Would you punish the man who beats his wife, but not the wife? Yes.

The sex isn't the dangerous part, the part we want to criminalize is the exploitation of the prostitute. For the rest of you; yes, I am aware of the existence of the "happy hooker". The rights of those to do what they want pales in comparison to the rights of the others not to be exploited in my mind. Just like hemp traders got screwed back when cannabis was outlawed.

As for Tellos, I don't see how buying forced prostitutes is substantially any different from "ordinary" rape, and as such it should be treated the same in the eyes of the law. Beating a woman until she succumbs to have sex with you is no different from having a pimp beat her into having sex with you.

[Tellos Athenaios]

As for Tellos, I don't see how buying forced prostitutes is substantially any different from "ordinary" rape, and as such it should be treated the same in the eyes of the law. Beating a woman until she succumbs to have sex with you is no different from having a pimp beat her into having sex with you.

The difference is whether or not you know. That matters because if the law and law enforcement do not discriminate the assumption will be "forced by default", which means "criminals by default", which means sex trade is "illegal by default" which will drive it underground and we know that does not actually solve anything. Swedish model all over again. Let's be quite clear on the matter: outlawing buying sex or outlawing selling sex are basically one and the same side of that coin. The other side is legalisation. Pick the least worst option.

I don't say legalisation and normalisation of sex trade as another paid-for-service is the be all and end all, rainbows and unicorns and everything. But unless you really advocate outlawing sex trade (buying or selling) it seems the only framework in which you actually can honestly attempt to solve the issues of abuse, health & safety working conditions and human trafficking in the sex trade. At least you can attempt to set up the rules and incentives of the game so that both prostitutes and punters are recruited into helping you tackle it.

[HoreTore]

The difference is whether or not you know.

A person in 2013 who doesn't know prostitutes may be forced to sell sex is too dumb to breathe.

Lock 'em up.

[Tellos Athenaios]

A person in 2013 who doesn't know prostitutes may be forced to sell sex is too dumb to breathe.

Lock 'em up.

A person in 2013 who doesn't know the prostitutes may not be... has a lot to learn.

So just to get this straight: you advocate outlawing sex trade.

[HoreTore]

A person in 2013 who doesn't know the prostitutes may not be... has a lot to learn.

So just to get this straight: you advocate outlawing sex trade.

Yup, by slapping the johns. Either through fines, as we currently do here, or by using the rape law when the prostitute is forced. Shower the prostitutes with hand-outs; if it's one thing we do well here in Norway, it's throwing vast amounts of oil-money at things. We already do that, mind, and it was ramped up when the new law was introduced. Still, we still have more money and the prostitutes still have holes in their pockets. We could do more.

As for those prostitutes who are not forced, they are of course hurt by a fine imposed on every john(but won't be negatively affected at all by enforcing the rape law). I don't see that as problematic at all. Their right to sell their body is outweighed by the rights of others not to be abused.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Yup, by slapping the johns. Either through fines, as we currently do here, or by using the rape law when the prostitute is forced. Shower the prostitutes with hand-outs; if it's one thing we do well here in Norway, it's throwing vast amounts of oil-money at things. We already do that, mind, and it was ramped up when the new law was introduced. Still, we still have more money and the prostitutes still have holes in their pockets. We could do more.

As for those prostitutes who are not forced, they are of course hurt by a fine imposed on every john(but won't be negatively affected at all by enforcing the rape law). I don't see that as problematic at all. Their right to sell their body is outweighed by the rights of others not to be abused.

Fair enough.

However the follow up question is: what if you're not Norway and don't have lots of oil money to buy yourself out of everything?

[Ironside]

The difference is whether or not you know. That matters because if the law and law enforcement do not discriminate the assumption will be "forced by default", which means "criminals by default", which means sex trade is "illegal by default" which will drive it underground and we know that does not actually solve anything. Swedish model all over again. Let's be quite clear on the matter: outlawing buying sex or outlawing selling sex are basically one and the same side of that coin. The other side is legalisation. Pick the least worst option.

Just to be clear, making it illegal to buy sex was to make it easier to stop the already existing human trafficking (the fate of the girl that the movie Lilja 4ever is based on happened before the law was enforced), so the dirty underground did already exist. So it's more regulation than legalisation you're talking about.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Just to be clear, making it illegal to buy sex was to make it easier to stop the already existing human trafficking (the fate of the girl that the movie Lilja 4ever is based on happened before the law was enforced), so the dirty underground did already exist. So it's more regulation than legalisation you're talking about.

Oh yes, legalisation is not the end-game. However you can't have regulation without legalisation. So IMO the implied equivalence is fair, in as much that nobody in the right minds is advocating that the markets will automatically sort everything out if only you legalise it.

[Husar]

Would you punish the man who buys crack and not the crack dealer? Would you punish the man who bought the stolen artwork and not the fence? What sense does it make to make a commodity illegal (In this case make it illegal for people to commodify their bodies) and then punish the buyer and not the seller.

Oh for a moment there I thought when you talked about the "abuses inherent in the profession" that you were sorry for women being forced into prostitution but apparently you're only sorry they're not getting jailed for being forced into it?

Btw, forced prostitution wasn't legalized and regulated.

[HoreTore]

Btw, forced prostitution wasn't legalized and regulated.

Yeah, I'm sure all the legal hookers in Germany are dying to have sex with men as old as their father who treats them like crap.

It's every little girls fantasy.

EDIT: Also, I was in Berlin in April, and talked to a guy who got a slight nod and a note with directions to a brothel from the bartender. At the time I thought it came of as more than a bit shady, and not quite legal. Is this a case of different state laws or regulations? Berlin being both the capital and formerly commies, I can certainly see how they could have a slightly different set of laws regulating public order....

[Kadagar_AV]

Yeah, I'm sure all the legal hookers in Germany are dying to have sex with men as old as their father who treats them like crap.

It's every little girls fantasy.

Actually, a scary amount of girls go for older guys. And since WHEN did women stop going for guys who treat them like crap?

[HoreTore]

Actually, a scary amount of girls go for older guys. And since WHEN did women stop going for guys who treat them like crap?

They stopped back when that outlook on women went out of fashion.

[Husar]

Yeah, I'm sure all the legal hookers in Germany are dying to have sex with men as old as their father who treats them like crap.

It's every little girls fantasy.

Yes, it's not like there isn't a social safety net if they do not want to do it. If they're being forced then it's not legal and if they don't report being forced to do it, how does turning them into criminals help that?

[HoreTore]

Yes, it's not like there isn't a social safety net if they do not want to do it. If they're being forced then it's not legal and if they don't report being forced to do it, how does turning them into criminals help that?

The social security net surely takes away a lot of the problem(hence why most prostitutes are non-western), but even that won't pay for a drug addiction(the leading recruiter). All the foreign prostitutes, fresh from the balts/balkans/whatever won't have any of that, and has the delightful choice of selling their bodies or watch their kid go hungry. Sure, that's not being forced at all.

Anyway, I of course don't advocate any negative measures aimed at the prostitutes themselves, only the buyers(who I believe to be worthless and can piss off and pay tax instead), and my preferred solution to the nastiest part of the sex industry won't affect the ones you're talking about at all(introducing the rape law).

[Husar]

The social security net surely takes away a lot of the problem(hence why most prostitutes are non-western), but even that won't pay for a drug addiction(the leading recruiter). All the foreign prostitutes, fresh from the balts/balkans/whatever won't have any of that, and has the delightful choice of selling their bodies or watch their kid go hungry. Sure, that's not being forced at all.

First of all, the eastern euros trust shady people in the pursuit of money and riches, their countries need to educate their girls better and improve their conditions to stop this human trafficking. Our country is trying but it's usually hard if the victims are too scared to talk.
As for drug addictions, that is a choice and not something you're born with AFAIK.
I'm absolutely for helping people who made the wrong choices but if they don't seek help and prefer to engage in shady, unpleasant or criminal acts, how is that everyone else's fault? Unless you mean we should legalize all drugs but then Vuk will post an article about how the lower drug prices really ruined the lives of poor drug dealers in Germany and how hunting them with guns all over south america is a far more humane idea.

Anyway, I of course don't advocate any negative measures aimed at the prostitutes themselves, only the buyers(who I believe to be worthless and can piss off and pay tax instead), and my preferred solution to the nastiest part of the sex industry won't affect the ones you're talking about at all(introducing the rape law).

Maybe the answer you are looking for is that I wasn't replying to you with my first reply. I never said what you propose is bad or makes no sense and I never said our system is perfect. I was arguing Vuk's point that apparently the US system where all of it is criminalized is somehow better.

[Vuk]

Oh gosh...I actually agree with HoreTore on something. Damn, I am gonna have to reevaluate my opinions. :P

[Ronin]

The social security net surely takes away a lot of the problem(hence why most prostitutes are non-western), but even that won't pay for a drug addiction(the leading recruiter). All the foreign prostitutes, fresh from the balts/balkans/whatever won't have any of that, and has the delightful choice of selling their bodies or watch their kid go hungry. Sure, that's not being forced at all.

by that logic every person that lives paycheck to paycheck is being forced to take the job they have also.
for example I would not wish to be a sanitation worker, should I campaign to have that job outlawed?

Anyway, I of course don't advocate any negative measures aimed at the prostitutes themselves, only the buyers(who I believe to be worthless and can piss off and pay tax instead), and my preferred solution to the nastiest part of the sex industry won't affect the ones you're talking about at all(introducing the rape law).

there is no logical rationale to make illegal or impose sanctions in participants in a monetary transaction, but at the same time admit that the very same transaction goes on every day for "free" or for non monetary values and that is ok.
in other words, if it's legal to give it away for free, it's legal to sell it.

[HoreTore]

Your logic is flawed.

1. Are you suggesting prostitution is a job like any other? You're honestly saying that you would have no more problem selling your bum for an hour compared to working at a shop...?

2. It's legal to give up babies for adoption. Are you of the opinion that it's perfectly fine to sell human babies?

And honestly, since when did prostitution and normal sex become one and the same? There's a world of difference, unless you consider women to be no more than holes for you to put your willy in.

[Papewaio]

Yes, it's not like there isn't a social safety net if they do not want to do it. If they're being forced then it's not legal and if they don't report being forced to do it, how does turning them into criminals help that?

Well if it is being taxed already they should get representation. So a license system including OH&S for the sex workers. Business license and regular health inspectors.

A well regulated sex trade being necessary for the security of the people.