Make it legal and we can regulate it! There will be no more abuses!

[HoreTore]

Would you punish the man who buys crack and not the crack dealer? Would you punish the man who bought the stolen artwork and not the fence? What sense does it make to make a commodity illegal (In this case make it illegal for people to commodify their bodies) and then punish the buyer and not the seller.

Would you punish the man who beats his wife, but not the wife? Yes.

The sex isn't the dangerous part, the part we want to criminalize is the exploitation of the prostitute. For the rest of you; yes, I am aware of the existence of the "happy hooker". The rights of those to do what they want pales in comparison to the rights of the others not to be exploited in my mind. Just like hemp traders got screwed back when cannabis was outlawed.

As for Tellos, I don't see how buying forced prostitutes is substantially any different from "ordinary" rape, and as such it should be treated the same in the eyes of the law. Beating a woman until she succumbs to have sex with you is no different from having a pimp beat her into having sex with you.

[Tellos Athenaios]

As for Tellos, I don't see how buying forced prostitutes is substantially any different from "ordinary" rape, and as such it should be treated the same in the eyes of the law. Beating a woman until she succumbs to have sex with you is no different from having a pimp beat her into having sex with you.

The difference is whether or not you know. That matters because if the law and law enforcement do not discriminate the assumption will be "forced by default", which means "criminals by default", which means sex trade is "illegal by default" which will drive it underground and we know that does not actually solve anything. Swedish model all over again. Let's be quite clear on the matter: outlawing buying sex or outlawing selling sex are basically one and the same side of that coin. The other side is legalisation. Pick the least worst option.

I don't say legalisation and normalisation of sex trade as another paid-for-service is the be all and end all, rainbows and unicorns and everything. But unless you really advocate outlawing sex trade (buying or selling) it seems the only framework in which you actually can honestly attempt to solve the issues of abuse, health & safety working conditions and human trafficking in the sex trade. At least you can attempt to set up the rules and incentives of the game so that both prostitutes and punters are recruited into helping you tackle it.

[HoreTore]

The difference is whether or not you know.

A person in 2013 who doesn't know prostitutes may be forced to sell sex is too dumb to breathe.

Lock 'em up.

[Tellos Athenaios]

A person in 2013 who doesn't know prostitutes may be forced to sell sex is too dumb to breathe.

Lock 'em up.

A person in 2013 who doesn't know the prostitutes may not be... has a lot to learn.

So just to get this straight: you advocate outlawing sex trade.

[HoreTore]

A person in 2013 who doesn't know the prostitutes may not be... has a lot to learn.

So just to get this straight: you advocate outlawing sex trade.

Yup, by slapping the johns. Either through fines, as we currently do here, or by using the rape law when the prostitute is forced. Shower the prostitutes with hand-outs; if it's one thing we do well here in Norway, it's throwing vast amounts of oil-money at things. We already do that, mind, and it was ramped up when the new law was introduced. Still, we still have more money and the prostitutes still have holes in their pockets. We could do more.

As for those prostitutes who are not forced, they are of course hurt by a fine imposed on every john(but won't be negatively affected at all by enforcing the rape law). I don't see that as problematic at all. Their right to sell their body is outweighed by the rights of others not to be abused.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Yup, by slapping the johns. Either through fines, as we currently do here, or by using the rape law when the prostitute is forced. Shower the prostitutes with hand-outs; if it's one thing we do well here in Norway, it's throwing vast amounts of oil-money at things. We already do that, mind, and it was ramped up when the new law was introduced. Still, we still have more money and the prostitutes still have holes in their pockets. We could do more.

As for those prostitutes who are not forced, they are of course hurt by a fine imposed on every john(but won't be negatively affected at all by enforcing the rape law). I don't see that as problematic at all. Their right to sell their body is outweighed by the rights of others not to be abused.

Fair enough.

However the follow up question is: what if you're not Norway and don't have lots of oil money to buy yourself out of everything?

[HoreTore]

Fair enough.

However the follow up question is: what if you're not Norway and don't have lots of oil money to buy yourself out of everything?

I'll answer that by rephrasing Tony Benn:

If we can find money to pay for sex, we can find money to help the prostitutes.

[Ironside]

The difference is whether or not you know. That matters because if the law and law enforcement do not discriminate the assumption will be "forced by default", which means "criminals by default", which means sex trade is "illegal by default" which will drive it underground and we know that does not actually solve anything. Swedish model all over again. Let's be quite clear on the matter: outlawing buying sex or outlawing selling sex are basically one and the same side of that coin. The other side is legalisation. Pick the least worst option.

Just to be clear, making it illegal to buy sex was to make it easier to stop the already existing human trafficking (the fate of the girl that the movie Lilja 4ever is based on happened before the law was enforced), so the dirty underground did already exist. So it's more regulation than legalisation you're talking about.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Just to be clear, making it illegal to buy sex was to make it easier to stop the already existing human trafficking (the fate of the girl that the movie Lilja 4ever is based on happened before the law was enforced), so the dirty underground did already exist. So it's more regulation than legalisation you're talking about.

Oh yes, legalisation is not the end-game. However you can't have regulation without legalisation. So IMO the implied equivalence is fair, in as much that nobody in the right minds is advocating that the markets will automatically sort everything out if only you legalise it.