How should European countries react on the NSA activities?

[a completely inoffensive name]

Disgusting how some people defend Putin.

He's a Populist Tyrant.

He rigs elections, has his opponents arrested, charged with blatant lies and convicted by school teachers tanding in as judges, he has Russian Citizens in other countries assassinated in ways that make it obvious who orchestrated the assassination.

The US is a bad ally - Russia is an ideaological enemy we happen not to be at war with.

If it takes helping Russia to prevent the US from becoming Russia 2.0, why should we not do it? If the system is not able to correct itself internally, the people must provide an external force to correct it.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Obama ain't no Putin. We're quite a few steps removed from that.

Sure, but are you suggesting that we must wait until we have a president who is literally Putin before we act?

[a completely inoffensive name]

No, but I think premature action is the worst thing possible. We don't live in the 1700s, revolution isn't really possible in the way that so many right-wing separatists want. It would be a massacre, and it would be brief. I think we have two choices: Nip this in the bud by reforming our political institutions peacefully and deliberately, or accept that we are not going to be a Republic for much longer. Revolution is just the worst possible solution, and by far the least likely to accomplish anything.

I don't really see anyone asking for a revolution. I only see people who take the wisdom of Abraham Lincoln to heart:

As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes." When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty — to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be take pure, and without the base alloy of hypocrisy

The only difference between that statement and one which would be made today is that we no longer fight for the notion that we are to be all equal, we fight for the notion that we are to be not equally starved in our rights to privacy and property.

[a completely inoffensive name]

You called to 'act.' That can only be interpreted in a few ways, regardless of whether or not they have been pondering the wisdom of honest Abe.

Strange, I feel that 'act' is one of the most generous and vague terms to throw out there. Acting comes in all forms, revolution, peaceful protesting, civil disobedience, even inaction is an act in of itself.

[a completely inoffensive name]

So which one of those is helped by reflecting on Abe's wisdom?

Because, personally, I find his stance regarding the secession of the South to be far more telling than any other stance he took.

I am not advocating a particular method of changing the system. I am simply asking you that perhaps Snowden is simply putting into action what Lincoln claims he himself should do in a similar position. What is inherently wrong with aiding the enemy if you yourself believe that the government has abandoned (or is abandoning) everything which it claims to stand for?

Please elaborate the second part of that post.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

PVC how much has the UK government spoken out against the US spying?

I assume that they are in cahoots and the only difference is that a UK Snowden would be a dead one.

Yeah - pretty sure we're in cahoots - quite possible we would assassinate a leak before he leaked - but then the last time that happened it was Blair in charge, and I'm not convinced he isn't actually a psychopath - so maybe we'd just arrest and gag him.

If it takes helping Russia to prevent the US from becoming Russia 2.0, why should we not do it? If the system is not able to correct itself internally, the people must provide an external force to correct it.

Because helping Russia might encourage a degeneration in the US. We would be rewarding Russia for being a much worse place while facilitating Russian geo-political goals which are even more mercenary than American ones.

Refuse to deal with the US, perhaps, but don't cleave to Russia instead.

Maybe the rest of Europe should back Germany to become a Great Power again?

After all, why not?

[Greyblades]

...You mean they aren't already in all but name?

[Husar]

Because helping Russia might encourage a degeneration in the US. We would be rewarding Russia for being a much worse place while facilitating Russian geo-political goals which are even more mercenary than American ones.

How is that true? It sounds like it comes straight out of a Cold War propaganda book. Since the Cold War ended, how many countries were invaded blackmailed and violently overthrown by the USA and how many by Russia? The Russians stand by their ally Assad while the US give the islamist rebels weaponry only to keep Russia and its allies down; like they didn't learn a thing from Afghanistan...

Maybe you could finally post some facts about why the USA are the lesser evil instead of quoting statements from propaganda leaflets.

Maybe the rest of Europe should back Germany to become a Great Power again?

After all, why not?

Nice try, but I won't bite.
Germany is making steps towards Russia anyway, ever since the Cold War actually ended and our last chancellor was a good friend of Putin and called him a flawless democrat.

[Papewaio]

Nice try, but I won't bite.
Germany is making steps towards Russia anyway, ever since the Cold War actually ended and our last chancellor was a good friend of Putin and called him a flawless democrat.

Seems out of character for a German Chancellor to misread a facist socialist as a flawless democrat... Look what happened last time that was incorrect.

Germans spy agencies have put their hands up to say they are spying in a similar method to the US. China certainly is and Russia imprisons political protestors in Gulags.

So I would recalibrate on if US, Russia or Germany have any moral high ground on spying on its own people. Germany has at least some very good recent reasons not to do so, but despite this it seems they too have been caught in the metadata barrel.

[The Lurker Below]

Maybe the answer is to question all spying? That is where the moral high-ground is to be had.

Daniel Ellsberg saying stuff and a Bush crony saying stuff

a video response on you link suggests how EU countries could respond - I've got nothing to hide.
https://www.youtube.com/v/Pz5wb6LXZLs&hl=en_US&fs=1&

[Papewaio]

I've got nothing to hide.

But if you wanted to, could you?

[Husar]

Seems out of character for a German Chancellor to misread a facist socialist as a flawless democrat... Look what happened last time that was incorrect.

Germans spy agencies have put their hands up to say they are spying in a similar method to the US. China certainly is and Russia imprisons political protestors in Gulags.

So I would recalibrate on if US, Russia or Germany have any moral high ground on spying on its own people. Germany has at least some very good recent reasons not to do so, but despite this it seems they too have been caught in the metadata barrel.

I never claimed anyone has moral highground, I just said some are more honest about it than others.

About our own secret service I'm horribly confused because the press seems to be as well.
First people think of course they knew, then they say they knew about prism, then it turns out there is also a prism in Afghanistan that is separate and maybe they knew only about that.
As for them doing it themselves I first heard that they released money to start such a program shortly after prism was revealed and/or they strongly wanted such a program, now some say they already have it. If they already have it, why did they want money to get it?

I'm not claiming anything, just saying all the info seems shady, at least Putin said right away that he is doing the same thing, no confusion there.

As for the "gulags", are they worse than gitmo? Are they even comparable to the actual gulags during the worst communist years? Or do people just say that because it sounds horrible and they can't get over how harsh russians and their weather are?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I never claimed anyone has moral highground, I just said some are more honest about it than others.

About our own secret service I'm horribly confused because the press seems to be as well.
First people think of course they knew, then they say they knew about prism, then it turns out there is also a prism in Afghanistan that is separate and maybe they knew only about that.
As for them doing it themselves I first heard that they released money to start such a program shortly after prism was revealed and/or they strongly wanted such a program, now some say they already have it. If they already have it, why did they want money to get it?

I'm not claiming anything, just saying all the info seems shady, at least Putin said right away that he is doing the same thing, no confusion there.

As for the "gulags", are they worse than gitmo? Are they even comparable to the actual gulags during the worst communist years? Or do people just say that because it sounds horrible and they can't get over how harsh russians and their weather are?

So - wait- the Germans ARE doing it too?

Anyway - as regards Russia and Putin vs the US.

The US has the same prejudice against Muslims now that it had against the Japanese during WWII.

Russia has a perpetual prejudice against everyone and a history of autocracy. Russia is not our friend, never has been, never will be. The US has behaved very badly over the last decade, but the underlying ideas are still there and they still see us in a better light than they do Muslims, especially dark Muslims.

If we're being honest - the US will treat us better - at the very least they'll not cut us while they ravage us - Russia, all bets are off.

[Husar]

So - wait- the Germans ARE doing it too?

I don't know, reports seem contradictory. You can't even expect our government to be as clear as Putin.
The West can't even keep up with Putin in terms of government transparency.
We always know that everything in Russia is the fault of Putin, we even know which mysterious killings are the fault of Putin, but we have no idea what our own governments are doing and what not. What kind of sad and pathetic state is that where we seem to be more clear about what's happening everywhere else in the world but have no clue about what our own governments are actually doing?

Anyway - as regards Russia and Putin vs the US.

The US has the same prejudice against Muslims now that it had against the Japanese during WWII.

Russia has a perpetual prejudice against everyone and a history of autocracy. Russia is not our friend, never has been, never will be. The US has behaved very badly over the last decade, but the underlying ideas are still there and they still see us in a better light than they do Muslims, especially dark Muslims.

If we're being honest - the US will treat us better - at the very least they'll not cut us while they ravage us - Russia, all bets are off.

More Russians = barbarians rhetoric? And how can you know what Russia will be in the future? Have you switched from christianity to shamanism? I expect more from the USA than being a kinder variety of plundering hordes, at least as long as they say that we shouldn't be anti-American because they stand in for freedom and democracy.

And ACIN, that the USA has become what it is is not the fault of some activists and it's not Russia 2.0 either.
However the government and the general populace seem to have no problem to go nuclear and abandon all their "strongly held" principles at the sight of a scary-looking rat and that's a dangerous trend.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Because helping Russia might encourage a degeneration in the US. We would be rewarding Russia for being a much worse place while facilitating Russian geo-political goals which are even more mercenary than American ones.

Refuse to deal with the US, perhaps, but don't cleave to Russia instead.

Maybe the rest of Europe should back Germany to become a Great Power again?

After all, why not?

You will need to properly flesh out that first statement there. A handful of activists over the past few years have embarrassed the US, under the guise that the US government has abandoned its principles and the Constitution. And thus the US government will proceed to become Russia 2.0 even faster?

[Papewaio]

Long term the EU will need to invest in non-US computer companies.

The result of this could be a very real long term damage to the one part of the US economy that has been growing stronger.