(Not) UN on Sinterklaas: Yep, we are guilty.

[Fragony]

The UN even has an opinion on our Sinterklaas festivities. Absolutily racist naturally, no matter that black people also celebrate it, finger->forehead. http://www.scribd.com/mobile/doc/177303852

They also celebrate it in our former colonies http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LJeUye3...%3DLJeUye3zZnU

See them being hurt by it

UN, stfu, you must


Edit: Link

[Rhyfelwyr]

It's good to know that we are tackling the important issues in the world...

[CountArach]

"During the celebration, numerous people playing the Black Petefigure blacken their faces, wear bright red lipstick as well as afro wigs"

Wait... you guys still do the whole blackface thing?

Anyway Frag just read this thing carefully. Or at least read the bottom questions - they are requesting more information. They want to know if people have complained (Question 2), if the African community has been involved (Question 3 and 4) and then what has been done to ensure that those who have expressed that they are offended by this have their offense nullified (Question 5). Can you explain what is so objectionable about these questions?

And because Frag's instant rage demanded that he post up his link without googling first, here is an English link:
http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archive...st_stereot.php

Note this part of the link:

The letter also hints that the character of Black Pete may undermine the Netherlands’ efforts to have the Sinterklaas celebrations recognised as part of official Unesco’s immaterial cultural heritage listings.

This makes complete sense to me in that context. Hell, it makes sense to me in any context, but particularly that.

[Fragony]

Black people celebrate it themselve it is totally harmless. In our tradition they are black because they are going down chimneys to deliver the presents. They are really the ravens of Wodan though, hijacked pagan stuff.

Edit I forgot, screw their list and screw them, catch somethin for me please.

[CountArach]

Black people celebrate it themselve it is totally harmless. In our tradition they are black because they are going down chimneys to deliver the presents. They are really the ravens of Wodan though, hijacked pagan stuff.

Then that will be calmly related to the UN and they will let you go.

You just want to be angry at the One World Government for putting white people like you down. This is nothing.

[Fragony]

Then that will be calmly related to the UN and they will let you go.

You just want to be angry at the One World Government for putting white people like you down. This is nothing.

Bein extremily annoyed is just as bad as slightly angry. Same thing. The same day they as for 400 troops among some are special forces and apaches. Same UN, same day

In Mali by the way. I haven't heard of it either.

[Husar]

This is just the racism inherent in Drutch culture and the chimneys and ravens are just excuses to appease those who criticize it.
I think it's time to talk about reparations. You got away in the other thread because the English were more numerous but this time you will have to pay for mocking the slaves you created. The only mitigating factor are your colonial wares like Kokosbrood, I'm willing to negotiate if I get some.

[Fragony]

The association doesn't exist outside a few (payed) organisations. It's totally harmless it has nothing to do with slavery whatsoever. Would they still celebrate in our former colonies if it was?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Black crows = Pagan origin.

Sinterklaus = blackened by chimney soot.

? = blackened, big red lips, and "fuzzy wuzzy" hair.


I get it Frags, that you and your fellow Niederlunders may view it as nothing but a harmless frolic, but I don't see how anybody can think that the current iteration isn't, at the least, playing off a racist stereotype.

A Caucasian child showing up, dressed in that same getup you describe, at the front door of most homes in the USA this Halloween would not be getting as much candy and might be asked to leave and go ask their parents why they were not getting anything this year.

[Fragony]

Watch the vid, they also celebrate it in our former colonies http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LJeUye3...%3DLJeUye3zZnU

A few professional activists have a problem, they start wining evey year

[Beskar]

It used to be similar elsewhere, but they changed it to 'Elves' because they saw the inherent issue.

[The Stranger]

ive tried to stay out of this discussion, online and offline, but meh... wth.

http://pauwenwitteman.vara.nl/media/301522

this video pretty much sums up the problems of this "discussion" and makes it clear why it isnt really a "discussion" but more a monologue of 2 sides venting their emotional frustration at each other. It must be said that atleast Quinsy remained calm and tried to talk... That cant be said for everyone at the table.

The discussion is petty imo, the issue doesnt really concern me, but that doesnt mean that some of the objections raised are valid. The "chimney sweeper" excuse is just plain bullshit. The depiction of "Zwarte Piet" is a racist stereotype, this does not mean however that the celebration is racist or that they are celebrating a racist event. Neither does it mean that the people who celebrate it, do so with racist intentions. As mentioned in the video, many people arent even aware of this racist dimension and arent aware that some people are offended or hurt by this.

That ignorance is part of the problem, and it is exactly this ignorance that Quinsy is adressing. He says at the start that he would prefer to have "Zwarte Piet" (depicted the way he is now) out of the celebration (he doesnt want to abolish the entire festivity) but if that is not a possibility he wants people to be made aware atleast about the way other people experience this festivity, including the colonial roots and the racial stereotype. This seems like a fair request to me.

But I dont agree with the way he puts this request out there. The chair reminds him that the people who celebrate Sinterklaas dont do so with racist intentions. Quincy then states that hes not concerned about the intentions, just about the impact of their actions upon the people that are offended by it. This is a big mistake imo, because that means also, using the same criteria, that he is calling the people who are celebrating Sinterklaas racist people. This may not be his intention, but that is the impact of his actions on the people he is offending. Hence that the most common reaction to saying that "Zwarte Piet" is racist is the reaction u see by the big man in the video.

The result is that we have 2 sides who feel offended, and this will not ever go anywhere...


Other than Quinsy I dont really care about the impact of the actions, I care more about the intentions, and since the intentions (overall) arent racist Im not offended by it. That being said, I do agree with his point that people should be made aware of how this celebration affects other people who are sometimes their neighbours and their friends, but atleast their fellow countrymen. I dont think anything should be forced upon anyone. Just make the case and show why its kinda weird that when a white guy goes through a chimney he comes out black, with thick red lips, big earrings and black curly hair, and then let it to the people who celebrate it whether they want this aspect to remain a part of their tradition, or not.

[InsaneApache]

Why does blacking up your face make you a racist?

If it is, those coal miners have a lot to answer for.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Why does blacking up your face make you a racist?

If it is, those coal miners have a lot to answer for.

Does working in coal mines give you big red lips and an afro?

[InsaneApache]

Only if you get a thick lip from not doing as your told, oh and washing your hair in wash-and-go.

The thing is this is silly. I could tell you real stories of racism that my step-mum related to me. Horrific.

[AntiDamascus]

That's always the fun. Do people purposely misconstrue something obviously racist as not or are their heads so far up their own butts they honestly can't see it?

I like this "Oh no no no, it has nothing to do with blacks.... it's just soot. But as further proof, our former colonies of black people still celebrate the holiday that has nothing to do with black people and they love it so it's fine."

[The Stranger]

Only if you get a thick lip from not doing as your told, oh and washing your hair in wash-and-go.

The thing is this is silly. I could tell you real stories of racism that my step-mum related to me. Horrific.

I could say something similar about your step-mums stories probably. that her grief is silly because someone has worse issues.

there is always someone with a more horrible story, this is not an argument not to listen to these people... imagine shrinks turning people down, saying you got daddy issues? well, i know people whos entire family got murdered, so stop whining and go WORK...

it would be nice if we could objectively make a list of which world problems to solve first, and we can both agree that this one would probably not even come in the top1000, but hey, if only the world worked that way.

but i guess ridicule is easier.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Black crows = Pagan origin.

Sinterklaus = blackened by chimney soot.

? = blackened, big red lips, and "fuzzy wuzzy" hair.


I get it Frags, that you and your fellow Niederlunders may view it as nothing but a harmless frolic, but I don't see how anybody can think that the current iteration isn't, at the least, playing off a racist stereotype.

A Caucasian child showing up, dressed in that same getup you describe, at the front door of most homes in the USA this Halloween would not be getting as much candy and might be asked to leave and go ask their parents why they were not getting anything this year.

Please don't try to make sense of the "mythology" or indeed the whole thing. That would be like attempting to rationalise Thanksgiving or Christmas as anything else but a ritualistic offer on the altar of commerce in the form of wholesale turkey slaughter, terrible jokes, family arguments and mandatory conspicuous spending. Besides, what's up with the whole faux Dutch/German spelling thing?

I'm not sure that the whole thing is now suitably sanitised for all concerned, but if you want to try bringing in the "traditional version" as damning evidence of its inherently racist nature, well, please explain at least the following two phenomena as well: "hulp-Sinterklaas" and the various job titles of the Zwarte Pieten (plural). Why? Because they're at odds with tradition and any attempt at reconciling that would make for some highly entertaining reading, that's why.

It used to be similar elsewhere, but they changed it to 'Elves' because they saw the inherent issue.

Not really, local versions simply died out. The Christmas thing is just an American export, carefully scrubbed clean of anything that might give cause for offense. Tradition has even less to do with that one.

Coincidentally, Sinterklaas has been in steady decline since the introduction of American Christmas.

this video pretty much sums up the problems of this "discussion" and makes it clear why it isnt really a "discussion" but more a monologue of 2 sides venting their emotional frustration at each other.

Bingo, there's people who want it because tradition (nevermind that in the 18th and 19th century local by-laws banned it for being too Catholic) and there's people who want to project the arguably racist overtones in it to the point you have to wonder whether or not they have even seen a modern Sinterklaas celebration in their life. And of course, as Fragony notes correctly, it is also celebrated in places which ostensibly have a lot more reason to be sensitive about racial inequality or sensibilities.

I expect the letter to be much ado about nothing. Especially since as far as government is concerned the whole thing is a privately organised and run event.

[InsaneApache]

There's a lot of people getting all righteous and offended on other peoples' behalf on this thread.

So in that spirit.

I get offended by the BBC childrens' tv program Blue Peter. Because it's racist against orange people. You know like Terry Venebles, Dale Winton and Peter Hain.

See how silly your posturing is yet?

but i guess ridicule is easier.

Sussed.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Only if you get a thick lip from not doing as your told, oh and washing your hair in wash-and-go.

The thing is this is silly. I could tell you real stories of racism that my step-mum related to me. Horrific.

Hey, don't think that I meant any more than what I said. I am not getting offended for anybody, neither do I think that people are being purposefully racist by keeping this tradition.

My point is that that this tradition is clearly rooted in racism, even if it no longer holds such meaning today. Surely you would not argue that the combination of blackface, big red lips and fuzzy hair is coincidental?

I think we can acknowledge the rather morally dodgy roots of one aspect of this particular tradition, while still keeping it alive and in good spirit today. While households should obviously celebrate in whatever way they wish, I think public celebrations should take into consideration the feelings of Dutch society as a whole. If it is going to seriously offend minorities, then you have to bear that in mind. From what CA said, the purpose of this UN investigation is to find out whether blacks are offended by it. If they are not offended, then yes I absolutely agree you should keep it alive and if indeed a few white do-gooders want to be offended on black peoples' behalf, then we can ignore them.

[Husar]

I think IA is still angry from the other thread and just wants to take away my colonial goodies which I expect to arrive any minute.

The difference is that the Dutch, while this is horribly racist, are really nice people as a whole. And I always saw Dutchistan as a country where black citizens are just a normal thing and noone really makes a difference. I mean apart from the Royal Dutch Marine Corps there is nothing harmful or dangerous in the entire country. It's completely unfeasible to think that Dutchies want to harm someone, they're the kitten of countries. I still want my Kokosbrood though.

[Greyblades]

The produced Fragony didn't they? That's a crime against humanity in and of itself.

[The Stranger]

There's a lot of people getting all righteous and offended on other peoples' behalf on this thread.

So in that spirit.

I get offended by the BBC childrens' tv program Blue Peter. Because it's racist against orange people. You know like Terry Venebles, Dale Winton and Peter Hain.

See how silly your posturing is yet?



Sussed.

the only one getting offended on other peoples behalf is you. no one in this thread said that painting your face black makes you racist in every circumstance. and instead of seeing the merit of the point that in some case it can mean it is racist (which doesnt even mean that much in itself, whats more stupid are the arguments put forth to deny this. you can tell a racist joke without being a racist yourself, you can even tell a racist joke without having the intention to be racist. this doesnt make the joke less racist though.) you go ahead and a) trivialise the point by saying that there is worse stuff in the world. b) ridicule it by making some stupid comparison.

your behaviour in this thread, and that of frag's as well, is examplatory of how people in the netherlands respond to this, and frankly thats what pisses these "activists" off. because no normal and rational debate can be had. You dont have to agree with them, you don't have to give in to their demands just because they are offended. But atleast... you can take them serious. And then after hearing them out you can rebuke their points with fair arguments (and not these strawmen you put forth) or you can just say that you do not care and dont mind that this is part of your cultural heritage. so be it.

but ye, as i said in my first post, this wont ever go anywhere since the basis for a rational discussion isnt there (and both "sides" are to blame for this), and i guess its the same online as offline.

[InsaneApache]

Ok. I'm open to discussion.

So can someone please explain to me me in plain English why 'blacking up' is racist?

[The Stranger]

this is racial stereotyping (broad nose, big lips, curly black hair, big bling jewelry):. If you want to defend it by saying its simply a chimney sweeper, then please explain to me how someone who looks like this come out of a chimney looking like the first picture.

I guess this is a nice depiction of a family of chimney sweepers:

For comparison, this is also racial stereotyping: http://resist.com/CARTOON%20GALLERY/...ws_image24.jpg

Just putting some black paint on your face doesnt make you a racist, it wont make you look like the first pic however, it will make you look like this:

That being said, the celebration doesnt have racist roots, most of the people celebrating dont have racist intentions, the problem is that they feel they are being made out to be racist (and in some cases they are, imo wrongly) because they are being reminded of the fact that the way "Zwarte Piet" is being depicted now is racist and is offensive to some people. Some people respond to this by looking for different ways to depict Zwarte Piet, some others respond to this by getting very defensive and denying that it is racist.

Deeper at root imo is the problem that some people simply "dont want to give in" to "newcomers" telling them what to do. And they have the right to take that attitude.


(imo you can diagnose something as racist without immediately bringing the ethical or moral dimension into it. As I said, you can make a racist joke without being a racist, you can write a book about racism without writing a racist book. You can make a racist charicature like the ones about islam that stirred so much commotion a while back without being a racist. if you believe that the points in favor weigh heavier than the points against it, then by all means proceed.)

[Rhyfelwyr]

Ok. I'm open to discussion.

So can someone please explain to me me in plain English why 'blacking up' is racist?

Because it mocks the way that black people look, and comes from a culture of stereotyping black people in negative ways to justify things like slavery and segregation.

IF it has become significantly divorced from these roots that it has lost these meanings, and/or people are no longer offended by it, then great, let it continue. But if the Dutch black community does take issue with it, then I think all Dutch people should at least take that into consideration.

[Fragony]

Because it mocks the way that black people look, and comes from a culture of stereotyping black people in negative ways to justify things like slavery and segregation.

IF it has become significantly divorced from these roots that it has lost these meanings, and/or people are no longer offended by it, then great, let it continue. But if the Dutch black community does take issue with it, then I think all Dutch people should at least take that into consideration.

They don't, they celebrate it themselve. There are only a few whiners that aren't worth discussing, yet here we are. It's a beloved tradition that is perfectly harmless.

[Husar]

Apparently there is a dutch news website that covers news from Dutchistan in English. May be useful for @Fragony in the future.

http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archive...rstands_zw.php
http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archive..._and_so_ca.php
http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archive...st_stereot.php

The articles mention for example that there are Surinamese and Antilles protesters, which sounds like not all the colonials like it.
And both the politicians and the organizers of the festivities seem willing to let go of the racial stereotypes involved (which seem like a more recent thing given the origin of zwarte piet). As I said, there is really not a dutch person who would want to harm anyone, even Fragony is just a fluffy bunny with a loud mouth.

[InsaneApache]

Thankyou for your replys guys.

Now how many of you are black?

Serious question.

[The Stranger]

I am. Though I don't see what your question has to do with anything I said really. Would the content of my post have less merit if i wasnt black? Because you havent responded to a word i said actually.