(Not) UN on Sinterklaas: Yep, we are guilty.

[Husar]

Some parts/dots of me are black, I have been told they're my unhealthy parts though.

The Stranger is right though in that your last post seems like you just ignore all the arguments you asked for IA.

[InsaneApache]

Do you personally feel offended by this tradition?

A beer or two might be responsible. ;)

[The Stranger]

you either havent read a word i said. or your earlier comment that you were up for a discussion was a lie. in any case, im out of here, because this isnt going anywhere but your problems arent as good as mine...

[rickinator9]

I don't like these foreigners who try change one of our defining traditions. If this is such a big issue(which it isn't), then ask yourself, why was this never an issue before 2011?

In my opinion, the renaming of the 'Negerzoenen' was already a step too far. Perhaps I should feel offended by 'Blanke vla'. Everyone knows the name is a black invention to insult dutch nationals.

[AntiDamascus]

What's funny is I think there are a lot of the people like me in this thread. I have nothing to do with this holiday, and I'm not black (but I "have black friends" Whoo Baltimore!).

So some in this thread are saying "Well you're not black, and the we can't find many, if any blacks that are offended. So what's the deal?"

Well, this thread pretty much came to us and asked what we thought..... right? I would think someone who hasn't taken part in the holiday and isn't the race being discussed would be able to give a more objective view. Do I care one way or the other? No. It will never affect me. But I can still look at and think it's pretty borderline racist.

I really don't care what people do with the holiday. I'm not black and whatever crazy country that is over there doing it.....Amestris? That may be from FullMetal Alchemist I don't remember.

[PanzerJaeger]

I'm not sure that white people dressing up as black people implies racism, but I don't really know enough about this to make a judgement.

Anyway, my all time favorite black face performance:

[Papewaio]

I'm offended by that tradition.

It doesn't depict the All Blacks accurately.

[Fragony]

Kinda funny, when a reporter asked a (black) comedian if zwarte piet is a negroe he replied 'of course not zwarte piet brings presents, if a real negroe slided down your chimney your tv would be gone'. (Losely translated)

Humour will get you anywhere.

[Hax]

It's not often that I agree with Fragony, this is one of those times.

[The Stranger]

I'm not sure that white people dressing up as black people implies racism, but I don't really know enough about this to make a judgement.

Anyway, my all time favorite black face performance:

its obviously racist. but that doesnt mean its "bad" but this distinction seems to be lost on many people (on both sides of the argument). the problem is more that the people who are complaining feel like they arent being listened to, they feel like they do not have the right to complain about this (one of the activists got arrested for wearing a tshirt that said Zwarte piet is Racisme, while someone was making a picture), and they feel as if their side of the story is less valuable than the tradition.

as i said, you dont have to agree, you dont have to give in, but imo its only decent to listen to their arguments. and if you dont even want to do that, for whatever reason, then do not take away their democratic right to talk to the wall... (not saying this is actually the case because i dont think it is.)

[Andres]

I thought Sinterklaas was a Turk. So, Sinterklaas and Zwarte Piet are actually a Turkish boss with a white employee who is forced to climb up and down chimneys. I'd say Sinterklaas and Zwarte Piet are a good example of what succesful integration of muslim immigrants could accomplish: the muslim becomes boss of a succesful and lucrative business and employs whites to do the dirty chimney climbing work.

Sinterklaas is the example of the perfectly integrated and succesful muslim (he became a Catholic Bishop and runs his own business and he's famous!).

[The Stranger]

kinda fail andres :P even for a joke

while from modern day turkey, turkey didnt exist and the turks hadnt migrated there, islam hadnt stretched there either. he was a greek most like.

[Fragony]

I thought Sinterklaas was a Turk. So, Sinterklaas and Zwarte Piet are actually a Turkish boss with a white employee who is forced to climb up and down chimneys. I'd say Sinterklaas and Zwarte Piet are a good example of what succesful integration of muslim immigrants could accomplish: the muslim becomes boss of a succesful and lucrative business and employs whites to do the dirty chimney climbing work.

Sinterklaas is the example of the perfectly integrated and succesful muslim (he became a Catholic Bishop and runs his own business and he's famous!).

Let me remind you that Turkey wasn't conquered by the Turks at the time. At least do it good ;)

[Andres]

So, he was Greek. Even better. A perfect example that not all Greeks are lazy and can become succesful entrepeneurs.

As such, he is a symbol in the fight against generalisation and stereotyping of our Greek friends.

[Kralizec]

I don't like these foreigners who try change one of our defining traditions. If this is such a big issue(which it isn't), then ask yourself, why was this never an issue before 2011?

In my opinion, the renaming of the 'Negerzoenen' was already a step too far. Perhaps I should feel offended by 'Blanke vla'. Everyone knows the name is a black invention to insult dutch nationals.

Didn't the whole "negerzoenen" thing turn out to be one big publicity stunt, organised by the company?

Also; it's been an issue for quite some time now. It's been repeatedly brought up during the last few years in the months september till november; perhaps even during the last few decades.

And to be fair; I'd hesitate to call the critics "foreigners" except when we're talking about the UN investigation. In the Neth's there might be a few bleeding-heart white people who are fighting the good fight, but I assume that most of the people who actually feel offended themselves are Dutch nationals of Surinam or Antillian descent.

[Kralizec]

To bring you foreigners up to speed, our celebration of Sinterklaas amounts to the following.

A boat arrives at a dock, where a lot of spectators are present - mostly children and their parents. An old guy disembarks. He's wearing a fake beard, red robes and one of those Pope hats. He's accompanied by several "black" guys who pass out candy to children as they pass through the crowd. For some miraculous reason, this event happens at multiple locations throughout the country at exactly the same time.

Later, on the evening of 5 December, children who are young enough to believe in this fantasy leave behind one of their shoes in the living room (near the fireplace, if there is one) and will find a present in (or near) the shoe the next morning, accompanied by a poem signed by "Saint Nick and Black Peter". The parents act as if they're surprised.
That's pretty much it.

As for the mostly white volunteers who usually play the role of Black Peter(s), the dress consists only of black facepaint, a wig of black hair and poofy clothes that were supposedly popular during the Renaissance era. Their role is to interact with the kids joyfully and hand out candy. Acting foolishly is not part of the role - contrary to what the letter to the UN is suggesting, they're not portrayed as submissive retards.
OTOH, Saint Nick is a stern fellow who keeps track of the behaviour of children (writing them down in his "great book") and gives prestents on the night of 5-6 december, but only to the nice kids.

The letter also hints that the character of Black Pete may undermine the Netherlands’ efforts to have the Sinterklaas celebrations recognised as part of official Unesco’s immaterial cultural heritage listings.

On that point, our government said: (paraphrased)

"Contrary to what's being suggested here, we have not filed any request whatsoever to have Sinterklaas added to UNESCO's list of cultural heritage and have no plans to do so."

[Fragony]

After survey, only in (dr)Amsterdam they have a problem, the epicentre of patronising, how surprising. I would like to know the black/white ratio but it isn't in the survey, but because it's Amsterdam I am pretty sure that most are gutmensch. In the other towns like Rotterdam or Den Helder or The Hague which have large black populations they just laugh it off.

[Furunculus]

Does working in coal mines give you big red lips and an afro?

is ther something 'lesser' about having big red lips and an afro?

[AntiDamascus]

Is there something wrong with liking watermelon and fried chicken?

[CountArach]

is ther something 'lesser' about having big red lips and an afro?

There is if it is being coupled with a position of servilitude.

[Beskar]

Is there something wrong with liking watermelon and fried chicken?

Long time ago, I was with a friend and we heard these stereotypes from Americans and we didn't know the answer, specifically, Watermelon. Watermelon just seemed so alien of a stereotype, so we put our googlefu to good use. We came across a bunch of answers such as 'Easier to Steal' and other nonsense, then there was an article saying that Watermelon was a very cheap fruit (chicken is cheap too) back in the ol' times which was popular with the poorer segments of society who could not afford the more expensive food but both provided good nourishment. Another one talked about it being slavery propaganda summed up as "Simple minded folk who are happy with Watermelon and a little rest".

Very old stereotype that some how lasted over hundred years, even though that 'black' people only account for 11% of Watermelon consumption in the United States.

[Montmorency]

Isn't it just that watermelon and fried chicken were more common in the South than the North and during the black migrations to the Northern cities of the first half of the 20th c. the Northerners came to associate these things with blacks instead of Southerners generally?

[The Stranger]

Long time ago, I was with a friend and we heard these stereotypes from Americans and we didn't know the answer, specifically, Watermelon. Watermelon just seemed so alien of a stereotype, so we put our googlefu to good use. We came across a bunch of answers such as 'Easier to Steal' and other nonsense, then there was an article saying that Watermelon was a very cheap fruit (chicken is cheap too) back in the ol' times which was popular with the poorer segments of society who could not afford the more expensive food but both provided good nourishment. Another one talked about it being slavery propaganda summed up as "Simple minded folk who are happy with Watermelon and a little rest".

Very old stereotype that some how lasted over hundred years, even though that 'black' people only account for 11% of Watermelon consumption in the United States.

stereotypes are often wrong. such as that all black people like bananas (because theyre basically monkeys, if another thread may be believed) And you dont want to know how often i hear that one or a variation of it ;)




anyway the issue at stake here is imo, when does one have "the right" to be offended, or when is it valid. This whole discussion is often rebuked with "well, you can take offense to everything" and while i dont think when it puts like that its an argument, but there is still merit to the statement.

How do we determine when something is offensive, what happens when someone is offended but no offense was intented? etc

[Fragony]

Possible UN resolution? The same UN that wants our special forces on the frontline in Mali? Which isn't really a frontline of course, which means a whole lot of innocent civilians will get killed. Unlike zwarte piet they don't hand out candy, very good at killing though. As if this couldn't get any more absurd.

[Andres]

anyway the issue at stake here is imo, when does one have "the right" to be offended, or when is it valid. This whole discussion is often rebuked with "well, you can take offense to everything" and while i dont think when it puts like that its an argument, but there is still merit to the statement.

How do we determine when something is offensive, what happens when someone is offended but no offense was intented? etc

The more crescendo the hysteria goes, the less likely this will end well.

I think the main issue is that most people have their viewpoint, stand their ground and don't even listen to each other.

One the one side, you have people who take offense. On the other side, you have people who deem it ridiculous and who say that they are overreacting.

But it's not very difficult to take the offense away.

For children, it won't matter if "Zwarte Piet" is an asian or white guy or woman. They won't care if Sinterklaas is suddenly a black guy. Sinterklaas usually has more than one servant. It's perfectly possible to keep the fairy tale intact and have 4 Pieten of different skin coulour and/or why not a black or an asian Sinterklaas.

Even if you find it a bit silly that people are offended, one must admit that it is very easy to keep the tradition, but in a less offensive package.

A small compromise and everybody is happy again.

Ridiculous or overreaction or not, it's not that hard to find a decent solution that satisfies everybody.

People often are way too busy with their own rightheousness instead of just proposing a satisfying compromise.

Instead of looking for arguments to prove one is right, one should better use his creative juices to find a solution for the issue. And in this case, a solution is very easily found.

[The Stranger]

The more crescendo the hysteria goes, the less likely this will end well.

I think the main issue is that most people have their viewpoint, stand their ground and don't even listen to each other.

One the one side, you have people who take offense. On the other side, you have people who deem it ridiculous and who say that they are overreacting.

But it's not very difficult to take the offense away.

For children, it won't matter if "Zwarte Piet" is an asian or white guy or woman. They won't care if Sinterklaas is suddenly a black guy. Sinterklaas usually has more than one servant. It's perfectly possible to keep the fairy tale intact and have 4 Pieten of different skin coulour and/or why not a black or an asian Sinterklaas.

Even if you find it a bit silly that people are offended, one must admit that it is very easy to keep the tradition, but in a less offensive package.

A small compromise and everybody is happy again.

Ridiculous or overreaction or not, it's not that hard to find a decent solution that satisfies everybody.

People often are way too busy with their own rightheousness instead of just proposing a satisfying compromise.

Instead of looking for arguments to prove one is right, one should better use his creative juices to find a solution for the issue. And in this case, a solution is very easily found.

yea thats definitely part of the problem. as i said in my first post, you can hardly call this a debate or a discussion. its just 2 sides venting their frustration at each other, none of them really listening or talking to each other.

[Andres]

yea thats definitely part of the problem. as i said in my first post, you can hardly call this a debate or a discussion. its just 2 sides venting their frustration at each other, none of them really listening or talking to each other.

Which raises the question: do we have a problem that people want to fix or is all this hysteria just people looking for an excuse to vent and to channel frustrations? Do they want to solve the problem or do they prefer to just yell at each other as loud as they can?

I think the best way to deal with this is to have somebody neutral ask both parties to sit around the table, have the neutral person offer a simple solution and when both sides keep yelling hysterically, ask the above questions. Then leave the studio and immediately start a program in which you make good fun of the hysterical people with a few hilarious sketches. End with the comment "ok, now that they channeled their frustrations with each other and we had a few good laughs at their hysterical expense, we can now carry on with the order of the day". Broadcast it in prime time. .

[Fragony]

yea thats definitely part of the problem. as i said in my first post, you can hardly call this a debate or a discussion. its just 2 sides venting their frustration at each other, none of them really listening or talking to each other.

Ever considered that the offence taken is offensive. Nothing needs to be changed. Nobody but a few boohoohoo-piets and 100% white self rigtious rebels without a cause complain. For the rest of us it's just a beloved tradition that has absolutily nothing to do with racism (or slavery fu UN you are perfectly fine with us going to kill hundreds of negroes in Mali, wtf do you think how it will be if you send our special forces, use the Dutch as mercenaries but rain hell on a kids party screw you). Some people just need racism to exist because they don't have anything else to do.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Which raises the question: do we have a problem that people want to fix or is all this hysteria just people looking for an excuse to vent and to channel frustrations? Do they want to solve the problem or do they prefer to just yell at each other as loud as they can?

I think the best way to deal with this is to have somebody neutral ask both parties to sit around the table, have the neutral person offer a simple solution and when both sides keep yelling hysterically, ask the above questions. Then leave the studio and immediately start a program in which you make good fun of the hysterical people with a few hilarious sketches. End with the comment "ok, now that they channeled their frustrations with each other and we had a few good laughs at their hysterical expense, we can now carry on with the order of the day". Broadcast it in prime time. .

Perhaps somebody from the Dutch Jewish or Muslim communities who have not attachment to this pagan/Christian ritual?

[The Stranger]

Ever considered that the offence taken is offensive. Nothing needs to be changed. Nobody but a few boohoohoo-piets and 100% white self rigtious rebels without a cause complain. For the rest of us it's just a beloved tradition that has absolutily nothing to do with racism (or slavery fu UN you are perfectly fine with us going to kill hundreds of negroes in Mali, wtf do you think how it will be if you send our special forces, use the Dutch as mercenaries but rain hell on a kids party screw you). Some people just need racism to exist because they don't have anything else to do.

not only did i consider it, i mentioned it in one of my previous posts. please do keep up fragony.

your post however perfectly examplifies what andres was talking about. and its imo a very arrogant attitude. Just because they are perhaps a minority doesnt mean their feelings shouldnt be respected or their arguments heard. Just because the "Almighty Frag" thinks it is bullshit, doesnt neccesarily make it so. The fact that some black/brown/whatever colour of people think its is not a problem (of which I myself am one of them) is no argument in favor of it not being a problem, in the same fashion that the fact that there are white/yellow/whatever color of people who think that it is a racist and a problem is no argument in favor of it actually being a problem...