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    Tribunus Plebis Member Gaius Scribonius Curio's Avatar
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    Default Re: responding to common objections to bible part 6 final.

    Quote Originally Posted by total relism View Post
    Lincoln was bart ehrmans, i just went with it. I did not know that about Caesar if true,how many documents total would you say that is?. How many from his timeperiod or within a few hundred years of his life?.


    when the nt was written,it was not a single collection, that happened hundreds of years later. The nt comes from multiple people and "traditions", peter,paul,mark,john,james,judas,luke,matt etc. So the nt is really a collection of multiple people/transitions that all are within short time period of jesus, that are confirmed by outside documents,such as Josephus with john the baptist,pilot,james the brother of Jesus,archaeology etc.

    ok i can maybe agree with you, show me the multiple lines of documents about Caesar from roman and non roman sources within his time period and well compare.
    Unfortunately I do not have time to collate a reasonably representative sample, but if you look up the above authors at the Perseus project, you might be find what you are looking for. (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/...on:Greco-Roman). In terms of numbers, it depends what you define as documents.

    Caesar's own 'commentaries' are contemporary, as are the (hundreds of) letters of Cicero to various people. The Latin authors Suetonius wrote biography; and Velleius (Italian) and Tacitus (possibly Gallic ancestry) history within 200 years of Caesar's death. In Greek, Plutarch (from Chaeronaia) wrote biography; Nicolaus (of Damascus) too, though his tome on Augustus is fragmentary. Appian (from Alexandria) and Dio (from Bithynia) wrote history. The point here, that the NT canon is from a much more homogenous tradition.

    nothing to do with politics,but worldview. Though liberal is used in politics as well.
    Religiously rather than politically conservative... My mistake...
    Nihil nobis metuendum est, praeter metum ipsum. - Caesar
    We have not to fear anything, except fear itself.



    Ibant obscuri sola sub nocte per umbram
    perque domos Ditis vacuas et inania regna:
    quale per incertam lunam sub luce maligna
    est iter in silvis, ubi caelum condidit umbra
    Iuppiter, et rebus nox abstulit atra colorem.
    - Vergil

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    Default Re: responding to common objections to bible part 6 final.



    Seriously?

    The helmet probably has its own helmet by now. Probably knee and elbow pads as well.

    Sorry to be so... whatever... But it's extremely hard to debate with someone who just doesn't seem to grasp even the most simple concepts.

    Let me spell it out for you:

    Everything. You. Say. Is. Moot. Until. You. Can. Show. The. Existence. Of. Your. God.

    Got it this time around?

    It's like someone claiming there is a big pinkish invisible elephant dancing in the room, and then expect people to discuss weather the elephant likes peanuts or strawberries - while the people around him is more interested in his mental health...

    Last edited by Kadagar_AV; 10-25-2013 at 14:39. Reason: And it line dance...

  3. #3

    Default Re: responding to common objections to bible part 6 final.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigurd View Post
    A few clarifications and I guess I am entitled to.

    I challenged all external references on the factual reference to Jesus of Nazareth. Most of them only refer to Chrestus or Chrestians, which I would argue in this thread (for the sake of giving you a challenge) are referring to a group different from traditional Christians. Chrestus and Chrestians means "the good" and is far from Christ "the anointed one" and followers (Christians). They do not make a connection between the Jewish group and the name Jesus, Except Josephus, which I am entitled to distrust and throw out of the equation (I did not admit to 2 of 3 passages, that is a lie. Ignored maybe).
    The other references mentioning Jesus by name e.g. Talmud have their own problems, by naming his top followers. They are not any of the disciples mentioned in the bible, suggesting this is a different Jesus (It was a common name in Judea) then claimed in NT.
    I did not drop Tacitus, but gave you a link to a good report that states Tacitus is tampered with (should be dropped).
    NT and OT (Bible) will have to wait until you post the thread about it (As I asked for and you agreed to do after this one).

    About the philosophy, I chose to drop it because I felt you failed to consider what I wrote. It would be interesting to discuss this in full.


    your original claim post 6
    "Most of, if not all, historical reference to a Christ are forgeries." "Josephus was probably forged in the 15th century to include the well known Testimonium Flavianum."


    claim above
    "I challenged all external references on the factual reference to Jesus of Nazareth"


    yet reject the bulk of data and historical documents called the nt, the closest best attested historical data to get info on jesus, for nothing more than your own religious bias worldview reasons [some call him the son of god]. Already you have admitted defeat here, unless on historical grounds you can argue they all made this person up and he was not a real person.


    Josephus
    you now claim to reject all passages about jesus,such as james his brother etc this is based on what? you would be only person in world to reject as far as i am aware. Your reason,you think [with no historical data to show] that another section was tampered with at some time pre 4th century. You never responded to the responses given, or that most accept portions of what you reject. You remain silent.


    [from left wing wiki] The general scholarly view is that while the Testimonium Flavianum is most likely not authentic in its entirety, it is broadly agreed upon that it originally consisted of an authentic nucleus with a reference to the execution of Jesus by Pilate which was then subject to Christian interpolation

    Modern scholarship has largely acknowledged the authenticity of the reference in Book 20, Chapter 9, 1 of the Antiquities to "the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James"

    as well as

    Almost all modern scholars consider the reference in Book 18, Chapter 5, 2 of the Antiquities to the imprisonment and death of John the Baptist to also be authentic


    you said
    "(I did not admit to 2 of 3 passages, that is a lie. Ignored maybe)"

    i guess i did assume by your non answer that you accepted those passages as well.


    the Jewish historian Josephus,writing for the Roman government in the 70's A.D. records some incidental things regarding Christ and the church. He confirms that John the Baptist died at the hand of Herod (this same incident is recorded in the gospels) as well as the death of, "The brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James. . . he delivered them to be stoned" (Josephus,#Antiquities of the Jews, Book XVIII, ch. V, p. 20; Book XX, ch. IX, p. 140 ). Again we have sources external to the Bible that demonstrate the historical reliability of the text. Josephus, who was probably alive during the time of Christ, is attesting to the reality of his existence. What this also tells us is that within 40 years of Christ's death, the knowledge of who he was was widespread enough that Josephus could reference him and expect his readers to know exactly who he was talking about.



    Tacitus
    you say "I did not drop Tacitus, but gave you a link to a good report that states Tacitus is tampered with (should be dropped). "



    Here is a full quote of the cite of our concern, from Annals 15.44. Jesus and the Christians are mentioned in an account of how the Emperor Nero went after Christians in order to draw attention away from himself after Rome's fire of 64 AD:

    But not all the relief that could come from man, not all the Bounties that the prince could bestow, nor all the atonements Which could be presented to the gods, availed to relieve Nero From the infamy of being believed to have ordered the Conflagration, the fire of Rome. Hence to suppress the rumor, he Falsely charged with the guilt, and punished Christians, who were Hated for their enormities. Christus, the founder of the name, was Put to death by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea in the reign Of Tiberius: but the pernicious superstition, repressed for a time Broke out again, not only through Judea, where the mischief Originated, but through the city of Rome also, where all things Hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their Center and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first Made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an Immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of Firing the city, as of hatred against mankind.



    please tell me who this is speaking of if not jesus and christian that started in judea that fits the time period, oh and leader crucified under Pontius Pilate and had followers in rome.



    Christus
    Means "anointed", derived from Greek χριω (chrio) "to anoint". This was a name applied to Jesus by early Greek-speaking Christians. It is a translation of the Hebrew word מָשִׁיחַ (mashiyach), commonly spelled in English messiah, which also means "anointed".



    your argument is about one letter your link admitted is a theory,you will hear alot of things like
    "it is possible to hypothesize that there was an "e" under the actual "i"" and the like. your article admits to not giving all the evidence and arguments.

    it says
    «even if this change was made already by the copyist, the original 'e' does not lose its meaning. In that case the copyist,
    which Andresen has explained, could very well have found the form "chrestianos" in his
    original, and by himself changed the strange "e" into the familiar "i".» (my translation)
    For the sake of clarity, I will add that this particular manuscript of Annales does not contain the name Chrestus. No evidence of any alteration of the word “Christus” can be found in the ultraviolet photograph.


    this is no fact and does not change the clear meaning of who the passage is referring to.


    you did not respond to
    Pliny the Younger (A.D. 112) spoke of the "troublesome sect of Christians."-were do we get christian at that time/space from? with no jesus?.




    Suetonius (A.D. 120) spoke of disturbances over "Chrestus" (Christ).
    Means "anointed", derived from Greek χριω (chrio) "to anoint". This was a name applied to Jesus by early Greek-speaking Christians. It is a translation of the Hebrew word מָשִׁיחַ (mashiyach), commonly spelled in English messiah, which also means "anointed".


    Cornelius Tacitus, Lucian of Samosata, Flavius Josephus, Suetonius, Pliny the Younger, Thallus, Phlegon, Mara Bar-Serapion, and references in the Talmud and other Jewish writings.#Encyclopædia Britannica#sums up the force of the data:

    “These independent accounts prove that in ancient times even the opponents of Christianity never doubted the historicity of Jesus, which was disputed for the first time and on inadequate grounds by several authors at the end of the 18th, during the 19th, and at the beginning of the 20th#centuries.”



    as for philosophy, i would love to continue, you said you needed time to think, you never met someone who believed what i did [you claimed].



    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius Scribonius Curio View Post
    Unfortunately I do not have time to collate a reasonably representative sample, but if you look up the above authors at the Perseus project, you might be find what you are looking for. (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/...on:Greco-Roman). In terms of numbers, it depends what you define as documents.

    Caesar's own 'commentaries' are contemporary, as are the (hundreds of) letters of Cicero to various people. The Latin authors Suetonius wrote biography; and Velleius (Italian) and Tacitus (possibly Gallic ancestry) history within 200 years of Caesar's death. In Greek, Plutarch (from Chaeronaia) wrote biography; Nicolaus (of Damascus) too, though his tome on Augustus is fragmentary. Appian (from Alexandria) and Dio (from Bithynia) wrote history. The point here, that the NT canon is from a much more homogenous tradition.


    In about 112 A.D. the Roman governor of what is now northern Turkey wrote to Emperor Trajan regarding the Christians in his district:
    "I was never present at any trial of Christians; therefore I do not know what are the customary penalties or investigations, and what limits are observed. . . whether those who recant should be pardoned. . . whether the name itself, even if innocent of crime, should be punished, or only the crimes attaching to that name. . . . Meanwhile, this is the course that I have adopted in the case of those brought before me as Christians. I ask them if they are Christians. If they admit it I repeat the question a second and a third time, threatening capital punishment; if they persist I sentence them to death. For I do not doubt that, whatever kind of crime it may be to which they have confessed, their pertinacity and inflexible obstinacy should certainly be punished. . . the very fact of my dealing with the question led to a wider spread of the charge, and a great variety of cases were brought before me. An anonymous pamphlet was issued, containing many names. All who denied that they were or had been Christians I considered should be discharged, because they called upon the gods at my dictation and did reverence. . .and especially because they cursed Christ, a thing which it is said, genuine Christians cannot be induced to do.



    Religiously rather than politically conservative... My mistake...

    you said there was more written about ceaser than jesus,more different sources. I counted 7 from your above [tell me if i am wrong] I would also like to know what they say of him.
    There are many more than 7 documents of jesus that make up the nt would you agree?. Plus outside of the nt.
    Last edited by total relism; 10-25-2013 at 15:29.
    “Its been said that when human beings stop believing in god they believe in nothing. The truth is much worse, they believe in anything.” Malcolm maggeridge

    The simple believes every word: but the prudent man looks well to his going. Proverbs -14.15
    The first to present his case seems right,till another comes forward and questions him -Proverbs 18.17

    In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
    Genesis 1.1

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    Default Re: responding to common objections to bible part 6 final.

    Quote Originally Posted by total relism View Post
    you said there was more written about ceaser than jesus,more different sources. I counted 7 from your above [tell me if i am wrong] I would also like to know what they say of him.
    There are many more than 7 documents of jesus that make up the nt would you agree?. Plus outside of the nt.
    There were nine authors cited by name, but this is where things get interesting. Caesar himself wrote the 8 Books on the Gallic War; 3 on the Civil War; Cicero delivered over 50 extant speeches, many of which refer to Caesar and some of which directly address him; he also wrote hundreds of letters, most of which discuss contemporary political events and Caesar's actions. Moreover, some of Cicero's late philosophical works also refer to Caesar. These works were composed in Caesar's lifetime. By contrast no records of Jesus survive from his lifetime.

    The majority of the historical record concerning Jesus was laid out from about CE 60-200, IIRC. It consists of the New Testament, which you suggest contains many more documents than the nine authors I cited. However, how many of the Biblical books actually deal with Jesus' life directly? I grant you the Gospels, but the Acts and Revelation do not. Then there are the epistles, which if I understand correctly, contain some scattered details, but do not primarily deal with his life.

    By contrast, the later historical tradition on Caesar, limited to ~20 BCE-220 CE, is much larger. The surviving sections of Nicolaus deal largely with Caesar's dictatorship. The Lives of Plutarch and Suetonius contain an almost complete record of his life. Appian and Dio who wrote 24 and 80 books respectively, dealing with Roman history have numerous relevant sections, in Dio Books 37-45 deal with the period of Caesarian political dominance. There are also numerous briefer references, which would correspond to the epistolary tradition for Jesus: I mentioned Velleius and Tacitus, who briefly touch on Caesar, but I might have included: Josephus, Florus, Aurelius Victor, or even Vergil, as well as still others. There are even epigraphic records such as the consular fasti.

    Moreover, as I noted before, the NT tradition is rather homogenous: it is the product of men who believed in Jesus' divinity, from a particular cultural background, who lived within a fixed area. By contrast, the Caesarian tradition covers multiple genres, multiple regions, two different languages and cultural backgrounds. Moreover some authors are highly critical of Caesar (eg. Cicero was his political adversary), presenting a more balanced account to posterity. Even including those references scattered throughout Greco-Roman literature, and the epistles, there is much more verifiable ancient material on Caesar than Jesus.
    Nihil nobis metuendum est, praeter metum ipsum. - Caesar
    We have not to fear anything, except fear itself.



    Ibant obscuri sola sub nocte per umbram
    perque domos Ditis vacuas et inania regna:
    quale per incertam lunam sub luce maligna
    est iter in silvis, ubi caelum condidit umbra
    Iuppiter, et rebus nox abstulit atra colorem.
    - Vergil

  5. #5

    Default Re: responding to common objections to bible part 6 final.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius Scribonius Curio View Post
    There were nine authors cited by name, but this is where things get interesting. Caesar himself wrote the 8 Books on the Gallic War; 3 on the Civil War; Cicero delivered over 50 extant speeches, many of which refer to Caesar and some of which directly address him; he also wrote hundreds of letters, most of which discuss contemporary political events and Caesar's actions. Moreover, some of Cicero's late philosophical works also refer to Caesar. These works were composed in Caesar's lifetime. By contrast no records of Jesus survive from his lifetime.

    The majority of the historical record concerning Jesus was laid out from about CE 60-200, IIRC. It consists of the New Testament, which you suggest contains many more documents than the nine authors I cited. However, how many of the Biblical books actually deal with Jesus' life directly? I grant you the Gospels, but the Acts and Revelation do not. Then there are the epistles, which if I understand correctly, contain some scattered details, but do not primarily deal with his life.

    By contrast, the later historical tradition on Caesar, limited to ~20 BCE-220 CE, is much larger. The surviving sections of Nicolaus deal largely with Caesar's dictatorship. The Lives of Plutarch and Suetonius contain an almost complete record of his life. Appian and Dio who wrote 24 and 80 books respectively, dealing with Roman history have numerous relevant sections, in Dio Books 37-45 deal with the period of Caesarian political dominance. There are also numerous briefer references, which would correspond to the epistolary tradition for Jesus: I mentioned Velleius and Tacitus, who briefly touch on Caesar, but I might have included: Josephus, Florus, Aurelius Victor, or even Vergil, as well as still others. There are even epigraphic records such as the consular fasti.

    Moreover, as I noted before, the NT tradition is rather homogenous: it is the product of men who believed in Jesus' divinity, from a particular cultural background, who lived within a fixed area. By contrast, the Caesarian tradition covers multiple genres, multiple regions, two different languages and cultural backgrounds. Moreover some authors are highly critical of Caesar (eg. Cicero was his political adversary), presenting a more balanced account to posterity. Even including those references scattered throughout Greco-Roman literature, and the epistles, there is much more verifiable ancient material on Caesar than Jesus.


    Moreover this bitc#, lol. I did not know all this about Caesar i am willing to say my comparison with him may very well have been a wrong one and thanks for correcting it.

    But just to ask without assuming all you say is true.


    how many total documents [including copies] are there for both these men? clearly jesus wins that.


    you said there was 9 authors- jesus has slightly more than that,especially if one counts the non canonical "gospels" and the like.


    Caesar himself wrote the 8 Books- what time period is the original writings from just wondering,the earliest copies.


    Cicero- i really dont have anything here to try and argue. except question how many of these refer to him and what the earliest manuscript timeframe was from. I would not agree that nothing from jesus time was copied,i think it was and used later in the official gospels.


    you said
    The majority of the historical record concerning Jesus was laid out from about CE 60-200


    I would say from 40's-90 ad for nt. If your including non canonical than yes later.


    you said
    Moreover, as I noted before, the NT tradition is rather homogenous: it is the product of men who believed in Jesus' divinity, from a particular cultural background, who lived within a fixed area. By contrast, the Caesarian tradition covers multiple genres, multiple regions, two different languages and cultural backgrounds. Moreover some authors are highly critical of Caesar (eg. Cicero was his political adversary)


    NT alone sure,but that matters not to the historicity of the documents,just the beliefs of the writers [not born that way], did not some see Caesar as a god?. i would not than question if he were a true person. But the nt has accounts of enemies of jesus and what they said of him as well. Plus there is Gnostic views of him,Koranic,jewish,roman etc not just from nt. Writings of jesus as well cover langues cultures etc. But in the end good post and i wont compare them together anymore.
    “Its been said that when human beings stop believing in god they believe in nothing. The truth is much worse, they believe in anything.” Malcolm maggeridge

    The simple believes every word: but the prudent man looks well to his going. Proverbs -14.15
    The first to present his case seems right,till another comes forward and questions him -Proverbs 18.17

    In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
    Genesis 1.1

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    Default Re: responding to common objections to bible part 6 final.

    Quote Originally Posted by total relism View Post
    But in the end good post and i wont compare them together anymore.
    Thank you, this has been an interesting discussion.

    I will merely answer the questions which you raised.

    Quote Originally Posted by total relism View Post
    how many total documents [including copies] are there for both these men? clearly jesus wins that.
    This is a question which I cannot answer accurately, as it is dependent on too many variables. I presume that you are correct, since during the early-high medieval period (from which most manuscripts of ancient texts survive) copies of the Bible were the main object of copyists work. Volume does not always mean much, however, except insofar as more manuscripts means less errors.


    Quote Originally Posted by total relism View Post
    you said there was 9 authors- jesus has slightly more than that,especially if one counts the non canonical "gospels" and the like.
    Nine which I named, there are more, as well as archaeological, epigraphic and numismatic sources.


    Quote Originally Posted by total relism View Post
    Caesar himself wrote the 8 Books- what time period is the original writings from just wondering,the ear liest copies.
    This is still controversial: either during the Gallic War itself, year-by-year from 59-51 BCE, or at some point afterwards, before his death in 44 BCE. As to the earliest surviving manuscripts, I am not sure unfortunately. I would guess 8th-12th Century CE.

    Quote Originally Posted by total relism View Post
    Cicero- i really dont have anything here to try and argue. except question how many of these refer to him and what the earliest manuscript timeframe was from. I would not agree that nothing from jesus time was copied,i think it was and used later in the official gospels.
    Again, I do not have absolute numbers: the letters and speeches deal with political life from the 60s-43 BCE, and cover the majority of Caesar’s political life. Even if there is no direct reference to Caesar, there are issues raised by Cicero and his correspondents which would be pertinent to the study of Caesar’s life. Once again, I do not have specifics on the manuscript tradition of all these works, I believe some fragments are from 5th-6th century manuscripts.


    Quote Originally Posted by total relism View Post
    you said
    The majority of the historical record concerning Jesus was laid out from about CE 60-200

    I would say from 40's-90 ad for nt. If your including non canonical than yes later.
    Yes, I meant both canonical and non-canonical.

    Quote Originally Posted by total relism View Post
    NT alone sure,but that matters not to the historicity of the documents,just the beliefs of the writers [not born that way], did not some see Caesar as a god?. i would not than question if he were a true person. But the nt has accounts of enemies of jesus and what they said of him as well. Plus there is Gnostic views of him,Koranic,jewish,roman etc not just from nt. Writings of jesus as well cover langues cultures etc. But in the end good post and i wont compare them together anymore.
    Beliefs of the writers do have a bearing on the possible veracity of the account though. Yes, Caesar was worshipped, and later officially deified after his death. However, due to the way in which the Romans conceived of (what was later) the Imperial cult Caesar’s posthumous divinity had little bearing on his actions in life. The NT does indeed contain references to what the enemies of Jesus said, but through the lens of his supporters. Cicero and the historians when they criticise are expressing their own opinions not reporting those of others. It is simply more direct.

    Certainly there are other views, but in the main, they are much later. Islamic traditions only originate in the 8th century CE. The Jewish and Roman traditions are subject to suspicion by some, and add very few details.

    Just to reiterate, I am confident that Jesus was a historical individual, but there is little independently verifiable information regarding his life, outside of the NT, especially when compared to a figure like C. Iulius Caesar.
    Nihil nobis metuendum est, praeter metum ipsum. - Caesar
    We have not to fear anything, except fear itself.



    Ibant obscuri sola sub nocte per umbram
    perque domos Ditis vacuas et inania regna:
    quale per incertam lunam sub luce maligna
    est iter in silvis, ubi caelum condidit umbra
    Iuppiter, et rebus nox abstulit atra colorem.
    - Vergil

  7. #7

    Default Re: responding to common objections to bible part 6 final.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius Scribonius Curio View Post
    Thank you, this has been an interesting discussion.

    I will merely answer the questions which you raised.



    This is a question which I cannot answer accurately, as it is dependent on too many variables. I presume that you are correct, since during the early-high medieval period (from which most manuscripts of ancient texts survive) copies of the Bible were the main object of copyists work. Volume does not always mean much, however, except insofar as more manuscripts means less errors.




    Nine which I named, there are more, as well as archaeological, epigraphic and numismatic sources.




    This is still controversial: either during the Gallic War itself, year-by-year from 59-51 BCE, or at some point afterwards, before his death in 44 BCE. As to the earliest surviving manuscripts, I am not sure unfortunately. I would guess 8th-12th Century CE.



    Again, I do not have absolute numbers: the letters and speeches deal with political life from the 60s-43 BCE, and cover the majority of Caesar’s political life. Even if there is no direct reference to Caesar, there are issues raised by Cicero and his correspondents which would be pertinent to the study of Caesar’s life. Once again, I do not have specifics on the manuscript tradition of all these works, I believe some fragments are from 5th-6th century manuscripts.




    Yes, I meant both canonical and non-canonical.



    Beliefs of the writers do have a bearing on the possible veracity of the account though. Yes, Caesar was worshipped, and later officially deified after his death. However, due to the way in which the Romans conceived of (what was later) the Imperial cult Caesar’s posthumous divinity had little bearing on his actions in life. The NT does indeed contain references to what the enemies of Jesus said, but through the lens of his supporters. Cicero and the historians when they criticise are expressing their own opinions not reporting those of others. It is simply more direct.

    Certainly there are other views, but in the main, they are much later. Islamic traditions only originate in the 8th century CE. The Jewish and Roman traditions are subject to suspicion by some, and add very few details.

    Just to reiterate, I am confident that Jesus was a historical individual, but there is little independently verifiable information regarding his life, outside of the NT, especially when compared to a figure like C. Iulius Caesar.


    sorry did not break up because time.



    numbers,true but usually for most documents there are very few in ancient time,unlike the nt, that is were it separates itself greatly and adds to its authority as to accuracy. Many other documents have long time periods to when written to surviving documents.


    oh ok,same for jesus/nt.



    that is big difference to nt agreed?.



    im not saying they are not, i just was saying if were comparing documents/authors to jesus/cesar, than they need to speak of him,not just things that have to do with his time period, otherwise that would bring in alot more for jesus.


    well if you take writings of Caesar as bias as you do nt, than who decides what has to be attested?. But again has nothing to do with if that person is historical,that is topic of thread.
    “Its been said that when human beings stop believing in god they believe in nothing. The truth is much worse, they believe in anything.” Malcolm maggeridge

    The simple believes every word: but the prudent man looks well to his going. Proverbs -14.15
    The first to present his case seems right,till another comes forward and questions him -Proverbs 18.17

    In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
    Genesis 1.1

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    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: responding to common objections to bible part 6 final.

    I would say a better comparison would be Romulus and Remus.

    Or Pythagoras.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

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