Zimmerman not guilty.

[Montmorency]

Law enforcement is a task given authority from above, a national institution. Sports, on the other hand, are built from the ground up, with no real authority above

Hmm...

For my country and city, it sure seems like the opposite though, on both counts. Law enforcement and penal law can vary more than your view would admit, and not just by state, while basketball, Ami football, and baseball are national institutions in their own right.

Either there's just a difference between countries here, or there's a difference in what our respective perspectives are focusing on.

Maybe it's something that deserves scholarship, I dunno; for my part, I'm OK with declaring you a madman.

[HoreTore]

Hmm...

For my country and city, it sure seems like the opposite though, on both counts. Law enforcement and penal law can vary more than your view would admit, and not just by state, while basketball, Ami football, and baseball are national institutions in their own right.

Either there's just a difference between countries here, or there's a difference in what our respective perspectives are focusing on.

Maybe it's something that deserves scholarship, I dunno; for my part, I'm OK with declaring you a madman.

That last bit is probably spot on no matter what the topic is.

Anyway, I am of course speaking from a mainly eurocentric position, without in-depth knowledge of american customs.

I do find it unlikely, however, that basketball, football, handegg and various other sports are enjoyed equally across the US, however. Surely there must be a special focus on one at one place, and a special focus on another at a different place, with the occasional town focused on a completely different sport?

EDIT: I did, however, forget about the utterly retarded way you savages organize your sports activities, without proper sports clubs and all that...

[Tuuvi]

No, I stand by my way 'round.

Law enforcement is a task given authority from above, a national institution. Sports, on the other hand, are built from the ground up, with no real authority above. Law enforcement will be conducted mostly the same way across a nation, while what sports are played in a given location is a lot more varied. The valley I live in is a good example: where I live, at the end of the river, it's exclusively football and bandy. 30 minutes up the river, at Kongsberg, they play hockey and basketball, and the football enthusiasm is so low I feel like I've entered a new country every time I go to work.

In the US, police departments are administered by local governments. Each municipality's police department is an independent entity with its own policies and regulations. There is no over-arching authority over law-enforcement.

Speaking of local variations in sports culture, here in Utah rugby is becoming popular thanks to our Polynesian immigrants, but almost nobody plays lacrosse or hockey.

[Husar]

Yet Lemur's linked interview about the militarization of the police is full of mentions of presidents and federal declarations of war on things.
To say there is no overall national influence on local police is a bit much perhaps. As far as I can tell, a lot of stuff is done by the police so they "can come home to their family". The more often a cop gets shot trying to serve a warrant, the more often cops will be replaced by SWAT teams. If there is an area where the cops face a lot of violence and antagonism, naturally they will want to come back with better vests and bigger guns next time. This is also a trend in the military, where every single loss is becoming more and more of a tragedy and not so much seen as a natural consequence of war. People see they can do this or that to achieve more security, and then they do it. I'd bet officers in a SWAT team are less likely to die serving a warrant than nice guys in blue uniforms ringing the doorbell.

[Ironside]

Yet Lemur's linked interview about the militarization of the police is full of mentions of presidents and federal declarations of war on things.
To say there is no overall national influence on local police is a bit much perhaps. As far as I can tell, a lot of stuff is done by the police so they "can come home to their family". The more often a cop gets shot trying to serve a warrant, the more often cops will be replaced by SWAT teams. If there is an area where the cops face a lot of violence and antagonism, naturally they will want to come back with better vests and bigger guns next time.

That being a US cop is a wastly more dangerous profession than being a western European cop is certainly influencing the situation. It wouldn't surprise me if it's a partial spiral as well, a severe disrespect for the police and severe punishments starts to make killing a cop, rather then simply fleeing, an option.

[Tuuvi]

Yet Lemur's linked interview about the militarization of the police is full of mentions of presidents and federal declarations of war on things.
To say there is no overall national influence on local police is a bit much perhaps. As far as I can tell, a lot of stuff is done by the police so they "can come home to their family". The more often a cop gets shot trying to serve a warrant, the more often cops will be replaced by SWAT teams. If there is an area where the cops face a lot of violence and antagonism, naturally they will want to come back with better vests and bigger guns next time. This is also a trend in the military, where every single loss is becoming more and more of a tragedy and not so much seen as a natural consequence of war. People see they can do this or that to achieve more security, and then they do it. I'd bet officers in a SWAT team are less likely to die serving a warrant than nice guys in blue uniforms ringing the doorbell.

Sure there's a national influence, but there's no national authority, which is what I think HoreTore was getting at. There may be national trends but that doesn't mean that the situation is the same in every town and city, some police departments are better than others.

[Husar]

Ya but you are implying the local culture can influence or change the national law enforcement culture. In that you are dangerously misinformed.

Sure there's a national influence, but there's no national authority, which is what I think HoreTore was getting at. There may be national trends but that doesn't mean that the situation is the same in every town and city, some police departments are better than others.

So what are we arguing about again?

I honestly forgot and either you Americans don't know either, disagree with us Europeans for completely opposite reasons or I really lost track of what it was about. Is policing in America a local issue now or is there a national police culture that has no or very low local variations?

Who is the boss of the San Francisco Police Department and who is the boss of the New York Police Department? I remember that whether there is a Police Department or a Sheriff can vary from place to place and even overlap but aren't all of these somehow being watched by an elected politician or an elected Sheriff? Why does it seem like all the politicians overseeing the police forces grant them the budget for more SWAT teams and armored cars while all the citizens who dislike their use reelect those politicians? Is oit possible that such considerations are drowned during elections in a sea of economic concerns and the problem that there are only two parties and both candidates have the dsame stance on the issue which is why it is also never debated?

[HoreTore]

Sure there's a national influence, but there's no national authority, which is what I think HoreTore was getting at. There may be national trends but that doesn't mean that the situation is the same in every town and city, some police departments are better than others.

This one was so little thought through I was unsure whether I should bother replying to it, but anyway:

There's both national influence and authority.

You can start at the very top, which would be the constitution. Then, you have the congress/federal government. Then you have related branches of law enforcement, like the FBI. And of course, we can't forget about police academies now can we? You may have your own sheriff, but you won't have your own police officers. And so on, and so on... And finally, of course, comes the fact that crime is also a nation-wide issue, and not a local one. The real crime spans several borders.

Sheriff Joe in Alabama can't help being influenced by what the people want the cops to do in New York.

[Husar]

Some sherrifs are elected, some are appointed. Some police chiefs readily work with the feds on all issues, some are reluctant or outright hostile when State, Local, and Federal law conflict. Some police departments work within very restricted legal framework due to State or Local law and Courts, some give cops extroardinary power (Louisiana has a form of Civil Law where one is not necessarily innocent until proven guilty...). Some states are run by jingoey Governers who declare their own state level wars on crime, some states can't field enough cops to stop any crime at all.

And above it all are myriad powerful, secretive, and huge federal law enforcement or Homeland Security programs that not only add to everything else but sometimes conflict with eachother.

I guess my point is that its a very big Country.

First, thanks for the explanations.

And then I guess you would propose to split America up, since every time you have an issue, it's about the country being too big, which supposedly makes all the teething issues unsolvable?

[Tuuvi]

You may have your own sheriff, but you won't have your own police officers..

This is where you are wrong and this is what I've been trying to argue against. Sorry if I'm not doing a very good job. Here in the US, you do have your own police officers. Each police department does it's own hiring, and it dictates its own policies and procedures. This is what I meant when I said there "is no over-arching authority", I was not referring to the authority to enforce the law, but rather the authority to oversee and manage the nation's police force. Yes there are national law enforcement agencies such as the FBI, but they cannot and do not enforce local and state laws and they are not the ones interacting with the populace on a day-to-day basis . Please see GC's post for a better explanation.

I don't disagree that there is national influence, I just believe that you are wrong about there being little to no local influence. It's a mixture of both. Sheriff Joe was elected by the people of Redneck County, Alabama to run his county's police force. Mayor Bloomberg and President Obama don't have the authority to tell him how to do his job. The manner in which he conducts his department will be influenced by national trends in law enforcement, but they will also influenced by Sheriff Joe's upbringing, the culture he grew up in (which in a rural area was most likely the local one), and the nature of crime in his county. A rural county in Alabama has vastly different demographics than a dense, urban metropolis like New York, which means there will be different types of crime, different types of criminals, and possibly different crime rates. You won't find the Mafia in rural Alabama, and cops in New York probably have better things to do than hiding in the trees waiting for speeders to drive by.

[Beskar]

He is now arrested for pulling a shotgun on his Wife, battery, assault, domestic violence and criminal mischief.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Apparently he left his wife - this is his new girlfriend.

Well - I suppose once you've killed one innocent person, it just gets easier.

Guilty as Sin.

[HoreTore]

Each police department does it's own hiring,

...And thoe newly hired cops, they just appear out of thin air? They don't come from somewhere?

and it dictates its own policies and procedures.

....within the limits set by authorities above.

[HoreTore]

Lol you really are having trouble getting it. Every state and many cities have their own police academies. Every state has different fundamental procedures and laws in one major aspect of law enforcement or another.

I think you're vastly underestimating the socializing effects of institutions.

You can say the exact same thing about teachers and schools, but lord knows there's little difference between schools and teachers. No matter what the teacher college program actually say they offer, we still come out according to which pedagogical wind is blowing.

[drone]

You can say the exact same thing about teachers and schools, but lord knows there's little difference between schools and teachers. No matter what the teacher college program actually say they offer, we still come out according to which pedagogical wind is blowing.

There is a huge difference between schools from state to state, and even county to county in this country. Schools are funded at the local levels, this causes all sorts of disparities in the quality and scope. The myriad of threads on schools teaching ID here in the backroom should have clued you in on this.

Federal law enforcement is different than state police, and state police are different than local police, they focus on different crimes and won't interfere with the locals unless you get publicized institutional shenanigans.

[HoreTore]

There is a huge difference between schools from state to state, and even county to county in this country. Schools are funded at the local levels, this causes all sorts of disparities in the quality and scope. The myriad of threads on schools teaching ID here in the backroom should have clued you in on this.

Federal law enforcement is different than state police, and state police are different than local police, they focus on different crimes and won't interfere with the locals unless you get publicized institutional shenanigans.

Whether or not they teach ID is a cosmetic difference. Pedagogical differences are what counts, and they're minimal.

As for the rest, you're stuck on technicalities which doesn't really have anything to do with what I'm talking about. How it should matter that different agencies focus on different things is quite beyond me when the issue is cultural influence.

But just to get things straight: it is your opinion that there is no influence whatsoever, and that each US police department exists in a vacuum?

And that US institutions popped out like daisies, and have few or no connections to US culture?

[rvg]

... Pedagogical differences are what counts, and they're minimal...

Oh man, you're sooooo wrong. The differences are HUGE. Drone mentioned large variations between schools within the same county, and he's absolutely right: it happens across the nation. He knows what he's talking about, while you dismiss him without having a good idea about how American educational system works (or doesn't work depending on school).

[HoreTore]

Oh man, you're sooooo wrong. The differences are HUGE. Drone mentioned large variations between schools within the same county, and he's absolutely right: it happens across the nation. He knows what he's talking about, while you dismiss him without having a good idea about how American educational system works (or doesn't work depending on school).

Would you care to give a specific example?

[rvg]

Would you care to give a specific example?

Sure, just within my lovely Oakland county Michigan, if you look at the Bloomfield Hills school district or a Birmingham school district, they both have excellent schools with high rating, great funding, competent teachers, etc.
Now if you look at the Pontiac schools or Southfield schools, it's a nightmare. This is all within one county, I'm not even touching the cesspools like Detroit or Flint.

[HoreTore]

Sure, just within my lovely Oakland county Michigan, if you look at the Bloomfield Hills school district or a Birmingham school district, they both have excellent schools with high rating, great funding, competent teachers, etc.
Now if you look at the Pontiac schools or Southfield schools, it's a nightmare. This is all within one county, I'm not even touching the cesspools like Detroit or Flint.

I note that you are incapable of giving an example of pedagogical differences.

Good day to you, sir.

[rvg]

I note that you are incapable of giving an example of pedagogical differences.

Good day to you, sir.

Crap pedagogue vs Good pedagogue ... There's your pedagogical difference. Not to mention that individual schools customize their programs significantly.

[drone]

Whether or not they teach ID is a cosmetic difference. Pedagogical differences are what counts, and they're minimal.

In my county, we have public schools, private schools, magnet schools, Catholic schools, and Montessori schools, in addition to all the home schoolers. The county sets standards for the public schools, and can regulate to some extant the others but they are for the most part free to teach how they like. The quality of the public schools varies greatly, so much that property values of homes are affected by the school district they sit in.

As for the rest, you're stuck on technicalities which doesn't really have anything to do with what I'm talking about. How it should matter that different agencies focus on different things is quite beyond me when the issue is cultural influence.

But just to get things straight: it is your opinion that there is no influence whatsoever, and that each US police department exists in a vacuum?

I don't think anyone is arguing that there is no influence. But you don't seem to understand how jurisdiction works in this country. Training and requirements for federal officers differ greatly than, say, the Chicago PD.

And that US institutions popped out like daisies, and have few or no connections to US culture?

This is the problem with your thinking. What is "US culture"?

[Greyblades]

Its fun watching the Org's two ideological extremes play debate ping pong on two threads simultaneously.

[HoreTore]

are for the most part free to teach how they like.

Yes.... And my argument is that they end up teaching mostly in the same way, due to the socializing effects of the educational institutions(who will in turn be affected by the culture in which they operate).

I will argue that you will see a larger difference in pedagogical practice between a maths teacher and a language teacher* at the same school, than you will see between two maths teachers at different schools.

*not to mention art teachers, but they don't count since they're aliens.

This is the problem with your thinking. What is "US culture"?

Are you suggesting that it does not exist? If so, are you talking specifically about the US, or do you deny the existence of any national culture?

[Montmorency]

I will argue that you will see a larger difference in pedagogical practice between a maths teacher and a language teacher* at the same school, than you will see between two maths teachers at different schools.

What would you say regarding the difference between a math teacher and a language teacher at the same school versus the difference between two maths teachers in different countries?

[HoreTore]

What would you say regarding the difference between a math teacher and a language teacher at the same school versus the difference between two maths teachers in different countries?

Depends on the countries, but the difference I experienced teaching in Tanzania was extreme(and not just because of poverty, we visited private schools as well).

There's also quite a difference between myself and my british coworkers.

[Montmorency]

Could you elaborate on the nature of the differences in each case?

As in, how are Tanzanian/British math teachers different from Norwegian math teachers (of course including teachers besides yourself)?

[Tuuvi]

HoreTore, in order to help you understand better I think the differences in police culture between communities in the US can be compared to the differences in corporate culture between companies.

Yes, there is a national corporate culture and American companies as a group will do things differently then say, Japanese companies. American execs most likely recieved their MBAs from American universities and so they have been socialized to do business the American way. But even then, American companies are independent organizations and there are cultural differences between them. They structure themselves differently, take different approaches to marketing, and so forth. Some companies have more productive employees, some are more competitive and some are organized more efficiently than others. Some companies are slave drivers while others treat their employees well. Think Microsoft vs. Apple. Both are American tech companies, yet they are very different.

The same can be said for police departments in the US. As I have said before, they are independent organizations that dictate their own policies and procedures. In one city, you might get tazed just for jay-walking, but another city might have better training for its officers and stricter regulations so this kind of abuse isn't common. The former city maybe takes a "tough on crime" stance, while the latter has a "community policing" approach.

[Montmorency]

One variable to illustrate, maybe: some police departments encourage citizens to record officers, even going so far as to mount cameras on the officers themselves; many others are extremely hostile to the thought that police activities might be recorded by even the police themselves, and treat recording citizens very roughly indeed.

[rvg]

More importantly, if some cops prefer to taze people while other stick with the trusty batons, could these approaches be the result of pedagogical differences between police departments?