Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
Neither of these frameworks is without value, but on this issue at least they can easily "speak past" one another.
Indeed, and as such I don't see any point in having a "wall of nonsense"-discussion where neither of us really engage with the arguments of the other, which is why I said I didn't have much interest in discussing it further.

I do realize it may have come off as more cross than I intended it to be.

Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
I suppose Britain tends towards conservatism and the approval of the community, rather than building on grand principles. Conviction is done by the community, and once you're convicted, few outsiders care about your theoretical well being in order to uphold some high principle.
It is not the "right of the individual"(the prisoner) I care about. I care about the larger community. Why on earth should a pinko-commie like myself care about the rights of an individual? Lenin focused on class and state, nothing else!