Originally Posted by Tiaexz
Yeah, when you say there are WMDs then there....oh wait, never mind.
Re: Ukraine
Yeah, when you say there are WMDs then there....oh wait, never mind.
"Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu
Re: Ukraine
Are you serious?
CR
Ja Mata, Tosa.
The poorest man may in his cottage bid defiance to all the forces of the Crown. It may be frail; its roof may shake; the wind may blow through it; the storm may enter; the rain may enter; but the King of England cannot enter – all his force dares not cross the threshold of the ruined tenement! - William Pitt the Elder
Re: What can "The West" do if Russia expands?
....And the UN peacekeepers in Suez, Lebanon and Darfur entered while the crisis was ongoing...?
We tried to send peacekeepers while Darfur was hot. It failed because a peacekeeping mission requires an invitation, which it didn't get until things cooled down.
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
Re: What can "The West" do if Russia expands?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26405082
BBC Monitoring - between 1603-1607.
"If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."
[IMG]https://img197.imageshack.us/img197/4917/logoromans23pd.jpg[/IMG]
Re: Ukraine
Personally, I don't understand why those idiots thought it was a good idea to try to overthrow the elected government. However bad it is and however corrupt, the generally understood rules of the democratic game is that, after an election, you're stuck with whoever your country elected until the next set of elections where you can change your mind. If you abandon those rules, you shouldn't have any complaint about where you end up.
Re: What can "The West" do if Russia expands?
That would be like ISAF without Enduring Freedom. How could that work in Ukraine?
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
Re: What can "The West" do if Russia expands?
Thanks for the link. It is still hazy as the news have not been promoted in any other medias. We do not know if the "storming" was an actual use of force or again unidentified troops seizing an key loacation like they have done for days on already.
Ja Mata Tosainu Sama.
Re: What can "The West" do if Russia expands?
Are you just playing thick today Horetore? The basic idea how peacekeepers are deployed is so they are deployed between possibly hostile forces, thus helping to neutralize the situation. The worst thing that can happen now is that someone fires a shot and anything to diminish that possibility will help. The operations in Afghanistan have little to nothing to do with normal peacekeeping operations as the coalition is fighting an insisting armed rising of toppled ex government of Afghanistan.
Last edited by Kagemusha; 03-02-2014 at 18:16.
Ja Mata Tosainu Sama.
Re: What can "The West" do if Russia expands?
Or alternatively, the "pro-Europe" side tested things first by unilaterally overthrowing the pro-Russian government, which, however corrupt, was elected. Russia stood by election results when they weren't favourable. When they were favourable, their side should have had the opportunity to cash in, until the next lot of elections when they could be thrown out again by a disgruntled electorate. If we felt fair elections weren't likely to be possible, we should have pushed diplomatically to redress the conditions. The riots weren't the right way to go about it.
Re: What can "The West" do if Russia expands?
That mission is called Enduring Freedom. ISAF's mission was simply to protect Karzai's government from being whacked.
Peacekeepers have a good record on lowering tensions in post-conflict areas(with the occasional hiccup in the form of a genocide or two). Deploying such a force in a potentially explosive conflict is something else, and something which has not been done before(if you discount ISAF). What would be its mandate? When would it intervene? Would it require a shot fire, a shell fired or a tank rolling before they intervened? Should it be pre-emptive or only reactive? Should it side with one of the sides if the situation escalates, or should it form an independent faction?
All in all, there are way too many unanswered questions for what a peacekeeping force in the Ukraine could do right now that it would be impossible to avoid becoming the screw-up of the decade.
Last edited by HoreTore; 03-02-2014 at 18:23.
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
Re: What can "The West" do if Russia expands?
Lol! What kind of peace forcing mission would you like to deploy to solve the current crisis in Ukraine? How does that apply to the current crisis?
Ja Mata Tosainu Sama.
Re: What can "The West" do if Russia expands?
I have two words for you "Police Sniper"
The president ordered the deaths of protesters, then fled the Capital.
His "ousting" was a mere formality.
Edit: The Head of the Navy has defected: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26410431
Crap, Crap, Crap.
Last edited by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus; 03-02-2014 at 18:25.
"If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."
[IMG]https://img197.imageshack.us/img197/4917/logoromans23pd.jpg[/IMG]
Re: What can "The West" do if Russia expands?
I wouldn't want to deploy any kind of peacekeeping force, that's kinda my point. A few gunboats in the black sea might be useful, but that carries the risk that if something happens we are forced to intervene.
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
Re: What can "The West" do if Russia expands?
You are entitled to your opinion. You just want to stay clear from the crisis and hope for the best. That has little to do with your original statement that peace keeping operations are not for situations like this. But thank you for the clarification.
Ja Mata Tosainu Sama.
Re: Ukraine
Newly appointed head of the Ukrainian navy defects to Crimea. His statement:
"I, Berezovsky Denys Valentynovych, pledge allegiance to the residents of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea and the hero city of Sevastopol. I vow to strictly follow orders from the commander-in-chief of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea and hero city of Sevastopol, as well as orders by military commanders appointed by them, demands placed by the military code. I vow to fulfil my military duty properly and bravely defend the life and property of the people of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea and the city of Sevastopol."
Re: What can "The West" do if Russia expands?
Then let them do what they feel is right, and let them handle the consequences as well. Same with the president they overthrew. I suspect what Russia really wants is a stable set of rules to play by, with no unexpected changes, and certainly not against them. Democratic elections with the government remaining in place for the duration of their term would be as good as a Russian puppet government. What is not good is a democratic government with the chance of turning against Russia at any given moment. Unpredictable in a direction that they don't want.
Re: What can "The West" do if Russia expands?
What absolute nonsense.
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
Re: Ukraine
It seems Crimea is now more secure for the Russians. Interesting to see what his troops will do.
Ja Mata Tosainu Sama.
Re: Ukraine
That quote is so evil on a Orwell scale that it might just have made my day...
I don't know what saddens me most... That he think the USAnian population is so stupid they accept quotes like that, or that the USAnian population actually is so stupid that they accept quotes like that.
Re: What can "The West" do if Russia expands?
Having a bad day HoreTore? You have already shown that you have no idea how actual peacekeeping missions work as your knowledge of them is based solely on Afghanistan which has little to nothing to do with ordinary operations which just dont get such media attention. You are making blanket statements and we should just take it by face value? Ok, lets play the game, please elaborate how deploying peacekeepers would make the situation worse?
Ja Mata Tosainu Sama.
Re: What can "The West" do if Russia expands?
Based on the number of unfounded assumptions made in this post, I have no desire to respond.
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
Re: What can "The West" do if Russia expands?
Ja Mata Tosainu Sama.
Re: What can "The West" do if Russia expands?
Oh well, at least you don't come off as a petulant child..
Re: What can "The West" do if Russia expands?
Did the army try to recruit you to any of the 3 peacekeeping missions you mentioned, Kage? Do you personally know anyone who were a part of those missions?
I can answer yes to both of those(Darfur and Suez). Where you got the idea that I know only of Afghanistan is plain nonsense, and such statements do not form a foundation for further discussion.
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
Re: Ukraine
From what little I've been able to understand, most of the officers in the armed forces are pro-Russian.
It's definitely getting more chaotic by the minute.
I totally support the right of people to overthrow their government in a popular revolution. The problem here, is that the revolution was only semi-popular.
Last edited by Sarmatian; 03-02-2014 at 18:56.
Re: What can "The West" do if Russia expands?
Yes and yes. I had the possibility to join the Kansainälinen valmiusjoukko, which sends most of Finnish peacekeepers to operations. My brother in law is a peacekeeper and have made couple tours to Lebanon.
I made my assumptions based on your posts. First you claimed that peacekeepers cant be used to prevent an situation from escalating, but only in the aftermath of conflict, which is simply rubbish. Then you posted that any peacekeeping mission would need a peace forcing mission before hand, which is rubbish also. Maybe i cant read between the lines of your posts, or you do not explain your statements very clearly?
Ja Mata Tosainu Sama.
Re: What can "The West" do if Russia expands?
Extreme selective reading here, I would say. The first claim is a simple misunderstanding; I said that a peacekeeping mission isn't sent in when it is hot, as it has never been done. Ie. in the middle of an ongoing war. It can of course be used to prevent a situation from escalating, that's the reason they are there.
Where you got the idea that I believe a peacekeeping force needs to follow a mission to enforce the peace I'm not sure. That only rarely happens, and did not happen in any of the three missions you stated.
Further, your claim that since I do not see the benefit of sending a peacekeeping force in I simply wish to "hope for the best" is pure rubbish. There are plenty of alternatives other than "do nothing" and "send in some troops".
Last edited by HoreTore; 03-02-2014 at 19:11.
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
Re: Ukraine
If they want the right to overthrow a government through popular revolution, they can accept the responsibility of consequences that goes with it. The basic rule of a democracy is that, post-election, the country is left with the government that was elected, until the time comes for another election. If you decide that rule is unsatisfactory, then negotiations can take place for a substitute set of rules. During this interregnum, your neighbours may decide to have a hand in deciding the new set of rules. But you shouldn't have any complaint, as it was your choice to abandon those rules in the first place.
Re: Ukraine
As serious as Mister Kerry.
Well yeah, there is also not much of a Ukrainian army on the Crimean peninsula because the government of the Crimean peninsula turned all ukrainian soldiers on the peninsula into crimean soldiers two days ago. Why did they do that? Because they were not happy with the revolution and do not want to support it.
The only one making a big fuss about all of this are Westerners who think a pro-western revolution of ~50% of the population has to be a good thing simply because it's pro-west and against the evil russian empire. That doesn't mean that I liked Yanoukovich, it just means that when 51% of Ukrainians elected him ,what gives the other 49% the right to overthrow him? It's no wonder that the country is full of corruption because that's a corrupt way of thinking.
Exactly. While I fully support the ideas of the revolutionaries in general, their way of getting there leaves a very bad taste and wasn't the right way to do it.
As Pannonian says, that's what elections are for.
"Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu
Re: What can "The West" do if Russia expands?
This is your original post:
This is the one you are referring to Afghanistan:
Either we are assessing the situation very differently but from your first one i got the expression that you do not think peacekeepers as viable option. In my opinion using them now could possibly deter the situation from becoming "hot" at any point.
From the second i understood that you thought that in your view a peace forcing mission would be needed before peacekeeping mission, with your reference to Afghanistan. Maybe we are simply misunderstanding each other, but i want to make clear that in my opinion peacekeeping mission now could very well be viable option in order to avoid the conflict turning "hot".
Ja Mata Tosainu Sama.
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