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Thread: Ukraine-in-a-thread

  1. #661
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: What can "The West" do if Russia expands?

    Quote Originally Posted by rvg View Post
    There are lots of Russians and Russian speaking people living in Germany and they might need protection. You know what I'm saying?
    You're saying we have an anti-russian neo-nazi revolution?
    In that case you would be wrong.


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  2. #662
    Upstanding Member rvg's Avatar
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    Default Re: What can "The West" do if Russia expands?

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    You're saying we have an anti-russian neo-nazi revolution?
    In that case you would be wrong.
    I'm not saying anything. Mr Putin might see things differently though. But he's a reasonable guy, I trust his judgement implicitly.
    "And if the people raise a great howl against my barbarity and cruelty, I will answer that war is war and not popularity seeking. If they want peace, they and their relatives must stop the war." - William Tecumseh Sherman

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  3. #663
    Banned Kadagar_AV's Avatar
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    Default Re: What can "The West" do if Russia expands?

    Quote Originally Posted by rvg View Post
    Not to you. You can go ahead and advocate sending sending tanks against the AA. I hear they're really good at taking out jet fighters and chasing mobile AA platforms.
    Tanks against AA actually sounds like a brilliant idea. It would be a rather one sided conflict, don't you think?

    So yeah, I would advocate it.

    Even better though, would be to have a force of combined arms. Kind of like Russia.

    But you can go with your "air superiority vs AA idea", and see how far it takes you.

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  4. #664
    Upstanding Member rvg's Avatar
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    Default Re: What can "The West" do if Russia expands?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV View Post
    Tanks against AA actually sounds like a brilliant idea. It would be a rather one sided conflict, don't you think?


    But you can go with your "air superiority vs AA idea", and see how far it takes you.
    You're right. We used flying tanks to suppress Libyan AA back in 2011.
    "And if the people raise a great howl against my barbarity and cruelty, I will answer that war is war and not popularity seeking. If they want peace, they and their relatives must stop the war." - William Tecumseh Sherman

    “The market, like the Lord, helps those who help themselves. But unlike the Lord, the market does not forgive those who know not what they do.” - Warren Buffett

  5. #665
    Just another Member rajpoot's Avatar
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    Default Re: What can "The West" do if Russia expands?

    This thread makes for a very entertaining read in the morning with some coffee. Perfect mix of humour and information.


    The horizon is nothing save the limit of our sight.

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  6. #666
    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
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    Default Re: What can "The West" do if Russia expands?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube View Post
    Any modern tank should be able to one hit kill on the move, 3 or more km out. The Abrams is a bit dated, but the gun is still top notch. We have Stryker units equipped with the same gun that serve as mass produced tank destroyers.

    The Abrams does just fine around small hills Brenus. Its also very quiet and very nimble for such a big tank.
    Abrams have older version of Rheinmetal gun compared to new leos.
    Ja Mata Tosainu Sama.

  7. #667
    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
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    Default Re: What can "The West" do if Russia expands?

    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla View Post
    One notes that it is a rifled gun - because the 120 smoothbore on the Abrams is, frankly, somewhat sub-par. They were going to mount that same gun on the Challenger - which would have been a shame.

    FYI - to date the only thing capable of knocking out a Challenger II Tank is another Challenger II - the combination of rifled gun and superior armour makes it the best combat tank.
    There is a number of Russian AT marked missiles that can defeat challenger and several Western products that can do the same. While Saddam had nothing to defeat it.It does not mean there is no such thing. Dont buy into propaganda.
    Ja Mata Tosainu Sama.

  8. #668
    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
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    Default Re: What can "The West" do if Russia expands?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV View Post
    I'm no expert, but an expert I talked to shrugged his shoulders and did a 50/50 sign when I asked which tank was the best. I know Sweden choose German Leopards over USAnian Abrams. We also put our own Ericsson special made communication device on it, as well as some sort of a "net" (term used vaguely) around it to soak up the first charge, in a two charged weapon system deviced to penetrate the active armor.

    So yeah, Sweden wins this battle, hands down.

    As to the bolded part. In a real whatever war, the side able to sustain losses and carry on wins the day.

    If I remember correctly, I believe the US met its limit during Vietnam, censoring their free press from showing the US bodies. The idea that US morale is high enough to go into an attrition war vs Russia, over Ukraine, is laughable.

    PS... And the EU doesn't penis measure in the same way, thus we over here are largely unaffected. We know/believe we will work out a functional agreement with whatever side wins.
    And Finland just bought the entire tank fleet of Netherlands upgraded Leo 2a6`s for practically free and Dutch and Danish MRLS´s systems with same breath and cruise missiles from USA as we are stuck with "cold war" thinking. Does not feel that bad at this moment.
    Ja Mata Tosainu Sama.

  9. #669
    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
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    Default Re: What can "The West" do if Russia expands?

    This is Russia today and only the army. They have large land components also attached to their navies. At this point i am fairly certain that indeed most of the "unidentified armed men" at Crimea are indeed 810th Naval infantry Brigade and 382nd separate battalion Marines, with thrown in some Airborne guys from Moscow military district.

    This is Russia today: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...a_Army_New.png

    Understand that each Motor Infantry Brigade has a tank battalion and only reserve Brigades are equipped with outdated equipment. In total: 455 upgraded T-72´s upgraded to modern standards. 4500 T-80´s and 743 T-90´s.....
    Ja Mata Tosainu Sama.

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  10. #670
    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
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    Default Re: What can "The West" do if Russia expands?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube View Post
    T 72s of any kind are inferior to any Abrams, Leo, Leclerc, Challenger, or even Stryker MGS. T-80s are comparable to an Abrams in full scale battle but inferior individually, and I actually don't know much about the newer ones. Those are crazy numbers though for a failing nation.
    T-72 of Iraq has little to none to do with T-72B2 and B3 their armor,fire control and sights have been updated. In matter of fact the vaunted T-90 is continuation of T-72 while T-80 an independent progress somewhat (Im sure Hus as tank nerd can tell it better). All in all after ten years of upgrades the Russian army is just a mad beast compared to what it was. Its all just madness...
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  11. #671
    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
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    Default Re: What can "The West" do if Russia expands?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube View Post
    We've got plenty. They'll keep in storage until we need to upgrade the whole fleet, something we won't see any time soon. Abrams keep in storage pretty well. Even at our reduced active number we can look after our own vital interests as defined by the current administration.

    It'll be interesting to see if that changes pending further Russian aggression though... lotta people would be perfectly happy to go back to the cold war, especially in the military.
    To me what world really needs is at least decade of US isolationist policies. So the rest of us will understand that we cant depend that US will take care everything and we the rest can spit on them afterwards. It is no surprise that also in these forums it is the soldiers who are the most pacifist.
    Last edited by Kagemusha; 03-06-2014 at 08:35.
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  12. #672
    Senior Member Senior Member Brenus's Avatar
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    Default Re: What can "The West" do if Russia expands?

    if we emphasize our air power (and by "we" I mean "NATO") Russian AA will get crushed.” How many times I will have to tell: “YOU DIDN’T SUCEED TO DO IT AGAINST SERBIA, A COUNTRY OF 8 MILLIONS”. So except in movies, how do you plan to do against Russia?
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire.

    "I've been in few famous last stands, lad, and they're butcher shops. That's what Blouse's leading you into, mark my words. What'll you lot do then? We've had a few scuffles, but that's not war. Think you'll be man enough to stand, when the metal meets the meat?"
    "You did, sarge", said Polly." You said you were in few last stands."
    "Yeah, lad. But I was holding the metal"
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  13. #673
    Senior Member Senior Member Fisherking's Avatar
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    Default Re: What can "The West" do if Russia expands?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV View Post
    How is the US policy going for you lately?
    What US policy would that be? The policy of “we had no idea” or “we’ll have to look into that” or was it the policy of “we’ll have to do something”.

    How is it that we spy on everyone, including our own citizens but everything that happens is a surprise and our only policy is a reaction to what someone else has done. Obviously, forewarned is not forearmed. US policy is wait and see what happens, then send drones and Special Ops maybe, throw money maybe, sanctions maybe, oh, just let someone else do it! And give a speech about how great we are.

    Meanwhile the EU looks on.

    This may blow over in the Ukraine, or maybe everyone will just ignore it like what happened in Georgia. It is either the West gets some spine or they get to act surprised when Russia, China, or North Korea makes some provocative move again.

    Rinse and repeat.


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  14. #674
    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
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    Default Who are the provocateurs in Ukrainian crisis?

    Apparently Russian EW (electronic warfare) guys have been doing their job and of course as we are living days of social media so they leaked it. Part of conversation between EU official and Estonian minister of foreign affairs:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCn5iwvOvm8

    the full discussion:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CQHcYVCKR0

    I think it shows very well also that the Western media is very silent about this. In the discussion the foreign minister of Estonia concludes that the snipers of Maidan square were hired by the pro western faction. In another words self provocation. I am personally really starting to loose faith to this "peoples revolution"...
    Last edited by Kagemusha; 03-06-2014 at 10:48.
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  15. #675
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Who are the provocateurs in Ukrainian crisis?

    I have absolutily no idea

  16. #676
    Strategist and Storyteller Senior Member Myth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Who are the provocateurs in Ukrainian crisis?

    I came to post this, I'm glad someone else found it already. As I said, revolutions are always directed by someone's interests. I won't be surprised if foreign agencies are also linked in with this. The people will believe whatever you brainwash them to believe. Yell it loudly enough through a megaphone, pay off the barking media and suddenly the moral justification is on your side. Your end goal is to take the bone from the other dog and gnaw upon it yourself. And this plays well into the interest of the larger dog who wants your end of the alley as his turf. And this plays into the interest of the even larger dog which wants to give you several billions in loans and to decommission your military. So on and so forth.

    And the miserable SOBs on the square actually are convinced that the EU/NATO will give them a better standard of living. Protip: it won't.
    The art of war, then, is governed by five constant
    factors, to be taken into account in one's deliberations,
    when seeking to determine the conditions obtaining in the field.

    These are: (1) The Moral Law; (2) Heaven; (3) Earth;
    (4) The Commander; (5) Method and discipline.
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  17. #677
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Who are the provocateurs in Ukrainian crisis?

    Check this as well http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rQnXo2HMriQ <- completily insane europhile in Kiev.

    We didn't elect him. I will never vote on a christian party because europhiles don't get struck by lightning when they say 'democracy'

    Total freak. Also seems to freak out the Ukrainiens. Padded walls, good idea?
    Last edited by Fragony; 03-06-2014 at 11:09.

  18. #678
    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
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    Default Re: Who are the provocateurs in Ukrainian crisis?

    This entire thing is starting to show in entirely different light. Who were the "good guys" again?
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  19. #679
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Who are the provocateurs in Ukrainian crisis?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kagemusha View Post
    This entire thing is starting to show in entirely different light. Who were the "good guys" again?
    From what I didn't get from quality-media (hi Hussie) the nationalists have some VERY dubious movements, and as Horrie hinted at earlier in a different thread, the ordinary Ukarinians seem to just want indepence. Not EU-membership like the bedroomstory-moms that is 'quality media' wants us to think.

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  20. #680
    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Crimea has just sent a formal proposal to Russia to be annexed as part of Russia. I guess the putsch did not go quite like as planned. I can only continue praising the Russian and Ukrainian service men who restrain themselves from doing anything that cant be taken back. While the bastards on both sides in power play their games.
    Last edited by Kagemusha; 03-06-2014 at 12:04.
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  21. #681
    Strategist and Storyteller Senior Member Myth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Who are the provocateurs in Ukrainian crisis?

    The regular people want an end to being boned by super rich corrupt gluteus maximus holes. They have a poor choice of it: either the super rich corrupt guy who lives in a mansion with fricking panthers and lions and is supported by like minded russian oligarchs, or the super rich (wannabe) corrupt people who want to have the opportunity to steal enough of the people's money so they too can live in such a mansion. These guys are supported by the west and will be given such a chance in exchange for getting their country to join NATO and possibly the EU, a process which itself is profitable to said countries (and probably will not be for Ukraine). The people? Who cares about them!
    The art of war, then, is governed by five constant
    factors, to be taken into account in one's deliberations,
    when seeking to determine the conditions obtaining in the field.

    These are: (1) The Moral Law; (2) Heaven; (3) Earth;
    (4) The Commander; (5) Method and discipline.
    Sun Tzu, "The Art of War"
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  22. #682
    Senior Member Senior Member Fisherking's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    It is the only safe move for the Russians after going in.

    If they just wait and let a new government take over there is the likelihood down the road that Ukraine won’t let them renew the basing agreement. You could see it coming and one of the oldest political ploys in the books.

    Next, does Russia fall to economic sanctions or does the EU need Russian oil and gas more.


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  23. #683
    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisherking View Post
    It is the only safe move for the Russians after going in.

    If they just wait and let a new government take over there is the likelihood down the road that Ukraine won’t let them renew the basing agreement. You could see it coming and one of the oldest political ploys in the books.

    Next, does Russia fall to economic sanctions or does the EU need Russian oil and gas more.
    Have you checked the thread i posted? I am quite sure the popular opinion concerning pretty much everything concerning this crisis is about to take a drastic turn.
    Ja Mata Tosainu Sama.

  24. #684
    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Who are the provocateurs in Ukrainian crisis?

    There are a few interesting things we found out from this conversation:

    1) Members of Parliament were bullied and threatened, that there were people coming over to their houses at night, probably threatening their families as well
    2) That the snipers were most likely used by the protesters themselves to incite further riots and not Yanukovich.
    3) Most importantly, that EU and West don't care about what kind of fascists and murderers they support, as long as it is in their interest.

    I knew about 1) and 3) and was suspecting 2).

    This should have been a "stop the presses" kind of news, because it fundamentally changes the very nature of the conflict.

    Now, where's rvg to explain the connection between NATO and freedom again...

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  25. #685
    Senior Member Senior Member Fisherking's Avatar
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    Default Re: Who are the provocateurs in Ukrainian crisis?

    Well, who knows. Is this just a provocative clip with part of a larger discussion.

    It could be correct or misinformation or a deflection of some sort. Who knows who is behind it?

    All sides can have motives for causing more trouble.


    Education: that which reveals to the wise,
    and conceals from the stupid,
    the vast limits of their knowledge.
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  26. #686
    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
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    Default Re: Who are the provocateurs in Ukrainian crisis?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisherking View Post
    Well, who knows. Is this just a provocative clip with part of a larger discussion.

    It could be correct or misinformation or a deflection of some sort. Who knows who is behind it?

    All sides can have motives for causing more trouble.
    Estonia is a NATO and EU country. Both sides of the discussion have been identified. This is as real as it gets. It is slowly appearing all over the news at least here in Finland. Maybe West just forgot that they are not the only ones with abilities for surveillance. Apparently Russians caught it, because the EU woman was at Ukraine and stupidly called from un secure line to the Estonian minister.
    Last edited by Kagemusha; 03-06-2014 at 12:23.
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  27. #687
    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    And, that is most probably it for Crimea. Ukraine can kiss it goodbye.

    The Russians played this one perfectly. Taking control of the entire peninsula without having (officially) a single Russian soldier there, without firing a single shot, without anyone getting killed and winning the propaganda battle. A freakin' masterpiece of strategy, even though I, personally, would have liked that Ukraine managed to keep its territory intact.

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  28. #688
    Senior Member Senior Member Fisherking's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Kagemusha View Post
    Have you checked the thread i posted? I am quite sure the popular opinion concerning pretty much everything concerning this crisis is about to take a drastic turn.
    Yes, and I take the long view. People think they are right from their side, and often think the ends justify the means.

    I don’t believe in good guys and bad guys anymore. Just who’s self interest is it in and could it still have been someone with another motive.

    I worked for the government to long to take a simple view of anything.


    Education: that which reveals to the wise,
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    the vast limits of their knowledge.
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  29. #689
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Who are the provocateurs in Ukrainian crisis?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmatian View Post
    There are a few interesting things we found out from this conversation:

    1) Members of Parliament were bullied and threatened, that there were people coming over to their houses at night, probably threatening their families as well
    2) That the snipers were most likely used by the protesters themselves to incite further riots and not Yanukovich.
    3) Most importantly, that EU and West don't care about what kind of fascists and murderers they support, as long as it is in their interest.

    I knew about 1) and 3) and was suspecting 2).

    This should have been a "stop the presses" kind of news, because it fundamentally changes the very nature of the conflict.

    Now, where's rvg to explain the connection between NATO and freedom again...
    Question on nr2, why did you suspect that?

  30. #690
    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisherking View Post
    Yes, and I take the long view. People think they are right from their side, and often think the ends justify the means.

    I don’t believe in good guys and bad guys anymore. Just who’s self interest is it in and could it still have been someone with another motive.

    I worked for the government to long to take a simple view of anything.
    I dont believe in good or bad either in these kind of cases. Thats why i used " " World politics do not operate on morals but necessities. Still under all the crap there are real people most of the time suffering from these chess games, whether it was civilians shot in the left eye at Maidan square or service men ordered in harms way by politicians or the gazillion rest of alternatives.
    Last edited by Kagemusha; 03-06-2014 at 12:33.
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