responding to common objections to bible part 7

[Pannonian]

If anything, that would surely support TR's claims? If there was an ancient flood, you would expect other cultures to have records of it.

Or that one culture has influenced another culture, or indeed has taken it over as their own. I don't think many people with historical knowledge would claim that Jesus was born on 25th December. The presence of festivals around that period in many other cultures isn't proof that they were celebrating the birth of the Son of God. Look into the timing of when Christmas began to be celebrated and other Christian festivities, and it's far more likely that organised Christianity took on the stories of other cultures and appropriated them for itself. Eg. the song "We wish you a merry Christmas".

[Brenus]

“If you want to prove the Judeo-Christian religion false” I don’t want to prove a Religion false. I don’t care of Religions, or Legends or Myths. I just give one exemplar, as asked by TR, of him ignoring facts in order to keep his beliefs. So either he acknowledges that the Bible is not literally the Words from God, or he (as he will probably do) dodges the question.
If a book was written before a book I write, it is a copyright infringement. In fact, just to take for a book the main storyline is one. So a Jewish Script, at one point, decided to adapt the Sumerian account (or legend) to a Jewish version et voilà. Hollywood does it regularly. And most of the time, they pay the copyrights.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Or that one culture has influenced another culture, or indeed has taken it over as their own. I don't think many people with historical knowledge would claim that Jesus was born on 25th December. The presence of festivals around that period in many other cultures isn't proof that they were celebrating the birth of the Son of God. Look into the timing of when Christmas began to be celebrated and other Christian festivities, and it's far more likely that organised Christianity took on the stories of other cultures and appropriated them for itself. Eg. the song "We wish you a merry Christmas".

I don't think your analogy works because you are talking about something entirely different. The global flood would have affected everybody on earth and thus you would expect all peoples on earth to have some recollection of it. On the other hand, the date of Jesus' birth is something highly specific and not something most people would have knowledge of without being told of it. Thus celebrating Christmas on December 25th is obviously an example of co-opting other beliefs - the knowledge of a past, global flood is not.

either he acknowledges that the Bible is not literally the Words from God, or he (as he will probably do) dodges the question. If a book was written before a book I write, it is a copyright infringement. In fact, just to take for a book the main storyline is one. So a Jewish Script, at one point, decided to adapt the Sumerian account (or legend) to a Jewish version et voilà. Hollywood does it regularly. And most of the time, they pay the copyrights.

Well, that could be what happened. But how can you be sure? Maybe belief in an ancient flood was widespread throughout all the ancient peoples of the Fertile Crescent (which would not be surprising given its geography of major rivers and flood plains), and the Sumerians were simply the first to write it down?

Certainly, a competing Sumerian account in no way disproves the authenticity of the Jewish account.

[Brenus]

"Certainly, a competing Sumerian account in no way disproves the authenticity of the Jewish account." Nope, but it proves the Bible is not written by the Jewish acceptation of God. Which is the aim of my comment. I do not deny the fact of flooding. It happened all the time (Nile flooding arriving at the hottest moment were for the Egyptians the PROOF that Gods were existing), nor I doubt that unusual (one per century as we say now) flooding were the end of the world for civilisations near big rivers, literally.
So, now, believers in the Bible as literal have to explain why, when the Jewish were not on Earth, the Sumerians had a knowledge of this flooding before the Bible was written, if given by God. The Bible doesn't mention God (under few several split identities) going to warn the Sumerians, who built an Arch, loaded animals, send 3 birds etc... The fact is the Jewish at one moment incorporate this story in their own (plus few others). Nothing wrong with that, but if, as TR, you believe the the Bible is the Word of Good, it can't match. So, as I said, he just ignores the fact. Denial of reality is frequent, not only in Religious faith, as a defense system to notion that could put our belief system, or our emotions and so on..

[Empire*Of*Media]

Or that one culture has influenced another culture, or indeed has taken it over as their own. I don't think many people with historical knowledge would claim that Jesus was born on 25th December. The presence of festivals around that period in many other cultures isn't proof that they were celebrating the birth of the Son of God. Look into the timing of when Christmas began to be celebrated and other Christian festivities, and it's far more likely that organised Christianity took on the stories of other cultures and appropriated them for itself. Eg. the song "We wish you a merry Christmas".

indeed its a false celebration

the roots of 25th December and celebrating the "Christmass" and making holiness of SUNDAY its all roots from Mehr Worship or as Greek MITHRAYISM! so it has Iranian & Mesopotamian Roots......

20The December Anahita Is Born. 25th December Mithra Is born!! even Iranians & Kurds & Indians celebrate 19th December to 30th specially major ones in 20th-25th December as the YALDA NIGHTS or The Winter nights. but actually its a Mithrayism Custom and tradition and has resisted Islam all these centuries too.

in Mithrayism & even Zoroastrian, FIRE has a great Holy place in the religion! so Mithra is The SUN GOD Shine God Light God Light God Love God Kindness God Warmness God & ...... so the holiness of Fire make people later put an special day for Respecting Sun & Fire & SUN GOD. well, they all accepted the Sunday for that...........havent you ever wondered, why its SUNDAY not SONDAY?! (The Son of God Day) its for respecting SUN as its SUN Day not SON Day! and Mithra is a SUN GOD(ess) ......... Interesting ha?
as we see even Mithrayism influenecd highly in Hinduism & Jainism and in Greek & Roman Religions and Mythology. nut they edited it by their own wish and renamed many of those gods and Godess in their Cultural style. even the great place that CEDAR & LARCH is in Mithrayism and influenced into Christianity by Roman Priests! see that why i said before whatever good and wealthy went to west it was corrupted and its not the original's fault! as Christianity too.
you see the falsification of Roman Priests that were EX-MITHRAISTS (Roman Version of it) and were fully influenced by it injected it into Chirstianity! i believe in Armenian Christianity not its Roman & European Version.

so yes i dont believe in the Jesus Birth date as its being celebrated for 1700 years....and also in the European Version of Christianity.......

so happy Celebrating Daily SUN day and Yearly SUN Birth......as its a good tradition inviting for the world for more closeness and sincerity and peace and love. there's nothing bad in it.........

[HoreTore]

Incohorent ramblings mixed with spiritualist nationalism

Mithra?

Why on earth did the Romans need to steal an event from the Persians, when the winter solstice has been celebrated by basically every civilization in history...?

The traditions of Mithra are about as original as christmas itself.

[Pannonian]

Mithra?

Why on earth did the Romans need to steal an event from the Persians, when the winter solstice has been celebrated by basically every civilization in history...?

The traditions of Mithra are about as original as christmas itself.

I've heard of some large-ish pebbles in southern England...

[Empire*Of*Media]

soery it was doubled

[Empire*Of*Media]

sorry for empty post again i had to update the post and be in the latest........

[Empire*Of*Media]

I updated the Helios origin and SOL INVICTUS with MITHRA and christianity In BLUE

Mithra?

Why on earth did the Romans need to steal an event from the Persians, when the winter solstice has been celebrated by basically every civilization in history...?

The traditions of Mithra are about as original as christmas itself.

Who said PERSIANS ??! its far far much older than an 3500 years old Aryan Tribe origin. but in Mesopotamian and Iranian Plateau Roots that most backs to older than 7000 years. that does not mean Persian!

i brought Facts that does not need sources even, you can see with some little research even among ordinary people. i did not mentioned any nation Persian or Kurd or Armenian, so you cant blame me Nationalistic favors! or if you would like, doesnt mattr i dont mention it.......what is the matter is the TRUTH

indeed its a false celebration

the roots of 25th December and celebrating the "Christmass" and making holiness of SUNDAY its all roots from Mehr Worship or as Greek MITHRAYISM! so it has Iranian & Mesopotamian Roots......

20The December Anahita Is Born. 25th December Mithra Is born!! even Iranians & Kurds & Indians celebrate 19th December to 30th specially major ones in 20th-25th December as the YALDA NIGHTS or The Winter nights. but actually its a Mithrayism Custom and tradition and has resisted Islam all these centuries too.

in Mithrayism & even Zoroastrian, FIRE has a great Holy place in the religion! so Mithra is The SUN GOD Shine God Light God Light God Love God Kindness God Warmness God & ...... so the holiness of Fire make people later put an special day for Respecting Sun & Fire & SUN GOD. well, they all accepted the Sunday for that...........havent you ever wondered, why its SUNDAY not SONDAY?! (The Son of God Day) its for respecting SUN as its SUN Day not SON Day! and Mithra is a SUN GOD(ess) ......... Interesting ha?
as we see even Mithrayism influenced highly in Hinduism & Jainism and in Greek & Roman Religions and Mythology (Such as the Origins of Sol Invictus AND "Hellenic" that came from HELIOS the SUN god that was Hellenic derivatived name of Mithra Sun God.) and they edited it by their own wish and renamed many of those gods and Godess in their Cultural style. even the great place that CEDAR & LARCH is in Mithrayism and influenced into Christianity by Roman Priests! see that why i said before whatever good and wealthy went to west it was corrupted and its not the original's fault! as Christianity too.
you see the falsification of Roman Priests that were EX-MITHRAISTS (Roman Version of it) and were fully influenced by it injected it into Chirstianity! i believe in Armenian Christianity not its Roman & European Version.

see this too:
http://jdstone.org/cr/files/mithraschristianity.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithras...belief_systems

so yes i dont believe in the Jesus Birth date as its being celebrated for 1700 years....and also in the European Version of Christianity.......

so happy Celebrating Daily SUN day and Yearly SUN Birth......as its a good tradition inviting for the world for more closeness and sincerity and peace and love. there's nothing bad in it.........

i just forgot that YEZIDISM too has a special celebration exactly in 22th-25th december celebrating the MALAK TAWUS that its the newer version (Arabic?!) of Mithra's Name. they said themselves.

at all i will post a thread in MONASTRY about this soon................

[HoreTore]

I updated the Helios origin and SOL INVICTUS with MITHRA and christianity In BLUE



Who said PERSIANS ??! its far far much older than an 3500 years old Aryan Tribe origin. but in Mesopotamian and Iranian Plateau Roots that most backs to older than 7000 years. that does not mean Persian!

i brought Facts that does not need sources even, you can see with some little research even among ordinary people. i did not mentioned any nation Persian or Kurd or Armenian, so you cant blame me Nationalistic favors! or if you would like, doesnt mattr i dont mention it.......what is the matter is the TRUTH



i just forgot that YEZIDISM too has a special celebration exactly in 22th-25th december celebrating the MALAK TAWUS that its the newer version (Arabic?!) of Mithra's Name. they said themselves.

at all i will post a thread in MONASTRY about this soon................

The origin of Sol Invictus and similar celebrations are definitely not "inspired" by Mithra.

It's inspired simply by the sun.

[HoreTore]

I've heard of some large-ish pebbles in southern England...

Obviously erected by traveling Iranian nomads.

[Empire*Of*Media]

im not your enemy that you front me in a battle!!

for what i dont know despite i gave you sources & Facts & References, yet your job is to deny and you show yourself as a logical person ............oh my.............

OK anything you say its the Perfect & Unlimited Truth..why you dont create a cult or religion or an Ideaology yourself?! you could gather many people like you! your kind are so many!

[HoreTore]

im not your enemy that you front me in a battle!!

for what i dont know despite i gave you sources & Facts & References, yet your job is to deny and you show yourself as a logical person ............oh my.............

OK anything you say its the Perfect & Unlimited Truth..why you dont create a cult or religion or an Ideaology yourself?! you could gather many people like you! your kind are so many!

Most(all?) ancient civilizations worshiped the sun. Every single civilization who worshiped the sun have had a celebration at winter solstice. It is after all the time when their deity and life-giver comes back after a period of decline.

To say that this celebration has its origin in one specific culture is just nonsense. Winter solstice definitely comes from the sun, and the celebrations are found in plenty of cultures who had no contact whatsoever with ancient iranian nomads, like the Brits mentioned above.

[Empire*Of*Media]

Most(all?) ancient civilizations worshiped the sun. Every single civilization who worshiped the sun have had a celebration at winter solstice. It is after all the time when their deity and life-giver comes back after a period of decline.

To say that this celebration has its origin in one specific culture is just nonsense. Winter solstice definitely comes from the sun, and the celebrations are found in plenty of cultures who had no contact whatsoever with ancient iranian nomads, like the Brits mentioned above.

i dont see any Sun worship in China and far East. only in Americas.

and even The Worship of ATUN (SUN) in ancient Egypt is from mythraism as the orientalists say. like Girtschmann

BUT

OK Whatever you say GOD HoreTore !!

[Rhyfelwyr]

So, now, believers in the Bible as literal have to explain why, when the Jewish were not on Earth, the Sumerians had a knowledge of this flooding before the Bible was written, if given by God.

The obvious answer to that would be that the Sumerians had a knowledge of the flood because they had experienced it themselves. Their ancestors would have passed knowledge of it down through the generations by oral traditions etc.

The flood happened before Jacob/Israel even existed, so of course the Israelite people were not the first to record it in their own histories.

[HoreTore]

i dont see any Sun worship in China and far East. only in Americas.

and even The Worship of ATUN (SUN) in ancient Egypt is from mythraism as the orientalists say. like Girtschmann

BUT

OK Whatever you say GOD HoreTore !!

No sun worshp in China, eh? You're wrong, what a shocker!

The origin of sun worship is uite simple: it was created by people who managed to tilt their necks and look up to the sky. As this is a relatively simple task, it is no wonder that you can find it all over the world. And once you start worshiping the sun, you're pretty much obligated to celebrate winter solstice.

Anyway, how did the ancient iranians manage to travel to the british isles to erect Stonehenge, if I may ask?

[Empire*Of*Media]

No sun worshp in China, eh? You're wrong, what a shocker!

The origin of sun worship is uite simple: it was created by people who managed to tilt their necks and look up to the sky. As this is a relatively simple task, it is no wonder that you can find it all over the world. And once you start worshiping the sun, you're pretty much obligated to celebrate winter solstice.

Anyway, how did the ancient iranians manage to travel to the british isles to erect Stonehenge, if I may ask?

ok....i dont call myself god as like you......i acknowledge i didnt know that about china.thank you for that. but that cult in there had not much influence in China's Believes and thoughts & customs.

but what we see close customs & believes in near east and hellenics were similar .... i dont mean with other civilizations! because the Word Helios has Mythrayism Roots as i linked you. the greeks did not worship anything before that (i mean worship one god, but after mithrayism, also many gods were added it was because of their past Pagan believes)
i mean Mithrayism as expanding Iranian & Mesopotamian Sun Worship to hellenics & Latin Rome & Near East, because there are similarity in customs and believes while it was much lesser than other civilizations.

please God HoreTore, before you show your hatred on me or any Iranian & Kurdish races, Think without Hatred and Fanaticism! because in some points you should THINK than Read!! not many things were written for you !!

[HoreTore]

before you show your hatred on me or any Iranian & Kurdish races

Yes, of course, doubting a single origin for Mediterranean sun worship is definitely racism directed at Kurds and Iranians.

This is a contender for the Backroom's weirdest comment of all time.

[Empire*Of*Media]

Yes, of course, doubting a single origin for Mediterranean sun worship is definitely racism directed at Kurds and Iranians.

This is a contender for the Backroom's weirdest comment of all time.

you show it hiddenly in your posts not only here. i think your Brenus friend?!

and we suppose that your not that (Suppose!!) you too do like that as you throw the word "Anti Semitic" & Ultranationalist & Ignorant!!

i know your answer says that me and like meare, so..........OK GOD your right!!! what should i say more??!!

[HoreTore]

you show it hiddenly in your posts not only here. i think your Brenus friend?!

and we suppose that your not that (Suppose!!) you too do like that as you throw the word "Anti Semitic" & Ultranationalist & Ignorant!!

i know your answer says that me and like meare, so..........OK GOD your right!!! what should i say more??!!

Please explain how pointing out that some of your statements are antisemitic and describing you as an ignorant nationalist equals racism towards all Kurds and Iranians.

[Brenus]

"the Israelite people were not the first to record it in their own histories.." Yes. That is my point. The discussion we have here is not about the flooding, the point I made was TR avoid reality (or will ignore, push aside) in order to keep his faith that the Bible is from God. Not a writing about what God wants, but by God him/herself, as you point out in "their own histories"..

[total relism]

"Certainly, a competing Sumerian account in no way disproves the authenticity of the Jewish account." Nope, but it proves the Bible is not written by the Jewish acceptation of God. Which is the aim of my comment. I do not deny the fact of flooding. It happened all the time (Nile flooding arriving at the hottest moment were for the Egyptians the PROOF that Gods were existing), nor I doubt that unusual (one per century as we say now) flooding were the end of the world for civilisations near big rivers, literally.
So, now, believers in the Bible as literal have to explain why, when the Jewish were not on Earth, the Sumerians had a knowledge of this flooding before the Bible was written, if given by God. The Bible doesn't mention God (under few several split identities) going to warn the Sumerians, who built an Arch, loaded animals, send 3 birds etc... The fact is the Jewish at one moment incorporate this story in their own (plus few others). Nothing wrong with that, but if, as TR, you believe the the Bible is the Word of Good, it can't match. So, as I said, he just ignores the fact. Denial of reality is frequent, not only in Religious faith, as a defense system to notion that could put our belief system, or our emotions and so on..

as i mentioned b-4, there is a clear reason brenus avoids my other link on this very topic, it refutes his claims that isreal copied from any other local belief. so everytime he ignores it, so can can keep asuming his claim to be true, he likes the conclusion. For anyone after truth or just interested, look here


16] was the bible influenced by other local religions?
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...nal&highlight=


I just dont want people to assume his claim true without all the facts. Notice all he has done is claim, facts provided on my thread that he must ignore.

[HoreTore]

I just dont want people to assume his claim true without all the facts. Notice all he has done is claim, facts provided on my thread that he must ignore.

Every single one of the links you provided come from sources who believe in biblical literalism(except the wiki Horus article). This is, to put it mildly, questionable. Since you have not provided any reputable sources, your claim is as baseless as you claim Brenus' statement is.

It's like proving the Holocaust false by linking to a dozen neo-nazi sites.

[Rhyfelwyr]

"the Israelite people were not the first to record it in their own histories.." Yes. That is my point. The discussion we have here is not about the flooding, the point I made was TR avoid reality (or will ignore, push aside) in order to keep his faith that the Bible is from God. Not a writing about what God wants, but by God him/herself, as you point out in "their own histories"..

Please don't blatantly twist my words. In saying "their own history" I do not mean to say that they wrote it independently of God.

The bottom line is this - the fact that the Biblical account of the flood is preceded by a Sumerian one does not definitively prove that the Biblical account was not inspired by God.

[HoreTore]

Please don't blatantly twist my words. In saying "their own history" I do not mean to say that they wrote it independently of God.

The bottom line is this - the fact that the Biblical account of the flood is preceded by a Sumerian one does not definitively prove that the Biblical account was not inspired by God.

All quite irrelevant, since a global flood is proven false by geology, as well as common sense.

[Brenus]

"clear reason brenus avoids my other link on this very topic, it refutes his claims that isreal copied from any other local belief.” I don’t avoid other link, you just expose why I don’t take them seriously. You are telling that you refute bla bla bla. So you refute that the Bible copied from the Sumerian Legends, so you avoid reality/facts in order to keep your faith. You just confirm what I said from the start. See, even I was able to make a prediction: “he (as he will probably do) dodges the question.”

“The bottom line is this - the fact that the Biblical account of the flood is preceded by a Sumerian one does not definitively prove that the Biblical account was not inspired by God.” Yes it does. As the description in the Sumerians Myths preceding the Bible accounts provides different names to the Deities and humans involved in the story. If others spoke of it before, God can’t inspire the wording of a known story.

This of course without the knowledge of what HoreTore just highlight: The Deluge (global one) never happened. I was generous in conceding a local reality enlarged to a Mythic History (as we don’t know if the Sumerian did believe in it or if it was just a story for the long winter nights without TV, local version of Scary Movies).

[Rhyfelwyr]

All quite irrelevant, since a global flood is proven false by geology, as well as common sense.

Meh, often minor changes in our understanding of the sciences can place entire scientific narratives in a whole different light. This is true for geology, biodiversity, migrations, population growth, the boat-making capacities of ancient peoples, and many other controversies associated with the flood. I'm not a geologist and I'm not going to make geological arguments, but I believe in time that the scientific understanding will come to be in line with the Biblical one.

A Biblical young earth theory still makes more sense to me than the scientific account. Why did agriculture begin at more or less the same time across the whole world regardless of climate, technology or social arrangements, at around 10,000 BC? Why were humans milling around for hundreds of thousands of years before this happened? Why does all civilization begin at around 10,000 BC? Why were humans just another endangered species until this point? At around 10,000 BC, out of supposedly hundreds of thousands of years wandering around as little better than apes, why do humans all over the world, with no contact with each other and living in hugely different circumstances, suddenly develop agriculture, civilization, and explode in population?

I am genuinely asking this because it is something I have been thinking about and it is not even an argument I have seen being made by fundamentalist Christians. But science does not seem to explain this coincidence.

Yes it does. As the description in the Sumerians Myths preceding the Bible accounts provides different names to the Deities and humans involved in the story. If others spoke of it before, God can’t inspire the wording of a known story.

Right, so the Sumerian story is in fact 100% historically accurate, and the Biblical account is therefore wrong because it doesn't match the Sumerian account?

Your reasoning here is bizarre. At the time the Bible was composed, the flood (real or not) was something that had happened in a far and distant past. It stands to reason that many civilizations would give their own account of it, and no doubt attribute their gods as having some role in it. In turn, the Hebrews gave their own account. Why must the Hebrews write of this first in order for their writings to be inspired by God?

[HoreTore]

But science does not seem to explain this coincidence.

Science doesn't explain it, or you simply do not know the science?

The rise of agriculture coincides with the end of the ice age. Perhaps these two events are related, and perhaps there are scientific theories explaining it.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Science doesn't explain it, or you simply do not know the science?

The rise of agriculture coincides with the end of the ice age. Perhaps these two events are related, and perhaps there are scientific theories explaining it.

Yeah I know I looked into that, and knew that would be brought up. The thing is we are talking about completely disconnected peoples growing all sorts of different crops in completely different climates - much of the world was suitable for some sort of agriculture even during the last glacial period. Please explain why we record agriculture as beginning at around 7,000 BC in Papua New Guinea, 10,000 BC in Mexico, 5-8,000 BC in South America, when these areas were all still temperate or tropical even during the maximum extent of the ice sheet during the last glacial period (a full 22,000 years ago, supposedly).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:La...tation_map.png