Ukraine-in-a-thread

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Meanwhile - on the ground - Russia is pushing into Ukraine-proper

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...mea-referendum

Nope, not an invasion, Putin is a democrat!

At what point are some people here going to stop pretending?

[rvg]

At what point are some people here going to stop pretending?

Probably as soon as Russian armored divisions cross into Ukraine proper. So...Wednesday?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Probably as soon as Russian armored divisions cross into Ukraine proper. So...Wednesday?

At this rate - quite possibly.

[rvg]

At this rate - quite possibly.

I find the rate of escalation to be disturbingly scary. Haven't had that "are we heading into WW3" feeling since the morning of 9/11. Now that feeling is creeping back.

[ICantSpellDawg]

World War is bound to happen again because too many people want it so badly. The only thing that people want more than peace is to tear their enemies apart.

Putin wants to play general. He has mustered the balls to do it and wants to see how his combat troops will stack up against ours. Eventually, we will probably show him. One side or the other is deluding themselves into believing that their forces and tactics are superior.

His fears of a NATO on his doorstep are already reality. His borders are already full of NATO members. Any fright at new members is paranoia. Russia sees NATO as a threat, and I understand why, but it is really a threat against Iran and China. Russia is making itself threatened and it is becoming a target.

[Gilrandir]

Secession can only come from national referendum as per the law. Local referendums are allowed, but not on the union

In my opinion, it is not only the legality of the referendum that matters, but also HOW you arrange it, HOW people will vote and HOW FAIR will the count be. I'm sure the hurry, the armed people in the streets, the highly lopsided propaganda, the absence of access to alternative view media and previous public discussion would make any referendum illegitimate even if it were allowed by law.
I'm sure that in this particular case the results have been already drafted in the Kremlin: the turnout about 80%, the yeses about 75%. Why, I even saw a video where they unloaded stacks of ballots in which the neccessary box had been already ticked.

[Gilrandir]

Hospital administrators are basically head doctors with slightly more paperwork.

I would say that they tend to drop out of actual treatment of patients. Their management duties prevent them from pursuing their practice as doctors. So eventually they become administrators with an education of a doctor.

There's widespread corruption in Russia.
Average salary of a nurse - 600$
Average salary of a doctor - 1000$
Average salary of a CEO's of Coca Cola Russia and Gazprom - 12000$

You can't prove the spread of corruption going by simple mathematics. I don't know how much you are aware of prices for goods and services in Russia. It is the comparison of those with the salary that should be taken as a grounds for conclusions.
For example, in Ukraine (where the situation is pretty close to a Russian one) to fill a tooth costs 20-30$. Bread loaf is 50 cent (no pun intended). How much is it in the USA? I'm sure it is more.

[Gilrandir]

I have no idea. The snipers had a right to fire to protect others from bodily harm. Some police could have just had enough, independent of an order.

They mostly shot people who were outside the actual battlefield. And as far as I know, there is some international agreement that prohibits snipers in supressing riots within the country.

[Gilrandir]

Ultimately what does it change? Snipers are men, they could have been a part of some grand conspiracy or one of them could have sneezed and accidentally pulled the trigger.

It must have been an epidemic of flu - most casualties out of those shot were attributed to snipers.
There is a joke: a guy is trialed for murder and he is asked by the judge to give his account of what has happened. So he says: "I didn't stab the victim. He just slipped and fell on my knife. And did it seven times".
Your explanation sound like that.

[Brenus]

“I'm sure the hurry, the armed people in the streets, the highly lopsided propaganda, the absence of access to alternative view media and previous public discussion would make any referendum illegitimate even if it were allowed by law.” That is a description of the Maiden Revolution, but you find it legitimate…

“Probably as soon as Russian armored divisions cross into Ukraine proper. So...Wednesday?” Ohhh, you won’t be ready…

Joke apart, I start to be worried. The Russian populations in the North/East Ukraine are now joining the movement. But I am sure it is only Putin’s manipulation as they have access only Russian TV and communication…. Err, guys, what did Ukraine did for them in the last 20 years for the Ukrainian Russian Minorities having no access to news? Perhaps it would be time to send some Ukrainian Officials to tell the Ukrainian Russian Minority that they are full and complete citizens of Ukraine, and the 4 Nazi in the Government is a mistake and they will be expel.
But it might be faster to send NATO (well, it would but not really possible but lack of means) and obliged them to stay in Ukraine. Then, as we did in Kosovo, Croatia and Bosnia, we organise an ethnic cleansing under the eyes of the Peace Forces and with the approbation of EU and US, telling everybody they are living voluntarily, then that is the end. Well, except of course that we can’t do this because err, Russia is bigger than Serbia.

[Sarmatian]

http://www.payscale.com/research/RU/...=Russia/Salary

http://www.aebrus.ru/upload/iblock/c...fd68ad32d6.pdf

The pdf seems especially interesting if one is to draw any conclusions. I don't have the time to take a detailed look or even convert it into Dollars, but maybe you'd like to base this debate on some actual numbers by trustworthy western companies.

Edit: Page 23 may be interesting.

According to that, difference in salaries between professionals and executives in Russia is comparable to the difference in Poland, Czech Republic and Hungary, significantly better than in Slovakia and Romania and significantly worse than Italy, Austria and Germany.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

World War is bound to happen again because too many people want it so badly. The only thing that people want more than peace is to tear their enemies apart.

Putin wants to play general. He has mustered the balls to do it and wants to see how his combat troops will stack up against ours. Eventually, we will probably show him. One side or the other is deluding themselves into believing that their forces and tactics are superior.

Nobody wants war - war will happen when Putin miscalculates. That is getting more likely as he ups the stakes.

Both WWI and WWII happened because leaders miscalculated.

“I'm sure the hurry, the armed people in the streets, the highly lopsided propaganda, the absence of access to alternative view media and previous public discussion would make any referendum illegitimate even if it were allowed by law.” That is a description of the Maiden Revolution, but you find it legitimate…

“Probably as soon as Russian armored divisions cross into Ukraine proper. So...Wednesday?” Ohhh, you won’t be ready…

Joke apart, I start to be worried. The Russian populations in the North/East Ukraine are now joining the movement. But I am sure it is only Putin’s manipulation as they have access only Russian TV and communication…. Err, guys, what did Ukraine did for them in the last 20 years for the Ukrainian Russian Minorities having no access to news? Perhaps it would be time to send some Ukrainian Officials to tell the Ukrainian Russian Minority that they are full and complete citizens of Ukraine, and the 4 Nazi in the Government is a mistake and they will be expel.
But it might be faster to send NATO (well, it would but not really possible but lack of means) and obliged them to stay in Ukraine. Then, as we did in Kosovo, Croatia and Bosnia, we organise an ethnic cleansing under the eyes of the Peace Forces and with the approbation of EU and US, telling everybody they are living voluntarily, then that is the end. Well, except of course that we can’t do this because err, Russia is bigger than Serbia.

Except - your post reflects real life the way Russian TV does.

We didn't "organise" ethnic cleansing, the fact that we were crap at Peace Keeping it is a different issue.

Maidan included no occupation by foreign powers and the first thing the new government did was call elections in MAY, which is still two months away now.

Russia invaded Crimea, at the behest of a specific segment of the political class there, surrounded the Ukrainian military and got the government to declare a referendum on joining Russia with undue speed.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Apparently the only two options in the referendum are for greater autonomy within Ukraine, or to join Russia. There is no option for the status-quo, which is presumably what the Crimean Ukrainian/Tatar population and maybe some of the Russian population would want. Since there does not seem to have been any real consultation to provide for major viewpoints in the referendum, I do not see how it can be seen as legit.

I say this as somebody who sympathizes with the Crimean Russians, they have already had their languages official status removed by a part neo-Nazi government. When the only option is them or Putin, I feel for the more moderate Crimean Russians who are stuck between a rock and a hard place.

[rvg]

This referendum was a sham anyway. We'll see what sanctions materialize by tomorrow.

[Sarmatian]

Like it was ever in doubt. There hasn't been a single secession referendum in the modern history of the world where the population in question decided against secession. Scottish may be the first one actually, if they decide to stay in the UK.

At least now we can can go back to Kardashians and mystery plane disappearances.

[Sarmatian]

Why wait? I'll tell you now: No sanctions worth talking about, but a few paltry sanctions not worth talking about that everyone will talk about.

Visas for some senior Russian officials, delay of some investment programs, rudimentary diplomacy for a while and so on... Crimea remains a disputed territory for a loooong time.

[Strike For The South]

Like it was ever in doubt. There hasn't been a single secession referendum in the modern history of the world where the population in question decided against secession. Scottish may be the first one actually, if they decide to stay in the UK.

At least now we can can go back to Kardashians and mystery plane disappearances.

Quebec

Whatever, Russians have always been very naughty boys.

[rvg]

At least now we can can go back to Kardashians and mystery plane disappearances.

Haven't you heard? They have discovered even more areas where the plane did not land. Isn't that exciting?

*vomits*

[Brenus]

“We didn't "organise" ethnic cleansing, the fact that we were crap at Peace Keeping it is a different issue.” Yeah. So that is your explanation. We are crap. We liberated countries when people end to shoot at us because we are crap. We de facto, all right, not organise, but supervised Ethnic Cleansing because we are crap. So, just a suggestion, perhaps after all this “crapness”, it is time to think.

“Except - your post reflects real life the way Russian TV does” Except – no. I see things like I saw them 20 years ago, when with the same reasons, the ones like you were explaining that borders have to be change for the right of people to decide what they want to be, I saw NATO attacking countries without Mandate (so breaking international law) and out of its purpose (defensive alliance, not offensive against an absolutely not menacing Foreign Country), I saw the double standard rolling, the manipulation of media at a scale never seen before. I am seen thing like the USA and EU were seeing it when it suited them.
And I see what might happen.
I don’t know if Crimea should be obliged to stay in Ukraine. But at least I ask the question. You don’t. You don’t ask what the population opinion is, because you want Putin to be a tyrant. You refuse to see that the Russian didn’t shoot ONE bullet in annexing Crimea.
So, perhaps, perhaps, it is because they are really welcome.
You see manipulation because you have a deep disdain for the Russians, in Russia and in Ukraine. Read the comments of the pro-war: The Russian Minorities are manipulated, under propaganda… You never ask about the populations and why they feel frighten. Why the Russians in Ukraine would be sensible to Russian Propaganda if they didn’t feel there is a piece of truth in it. You dismiss their opinion as none important because they are Russians.

[Sarmatian]

Quebec

Yeah, I forgot about that. Twice rejected, even.

[rvg]

Yeah, I forgot about that. Twice rejected, even.

Puerto Rico as well...

[Sir Moody]

Puerto Rico as well...

and the Falklands - again twice if memory serves

[Kadagar_AV]

Quebec

Whatever, Russians have always been very naughty boys.

This is a new drunken low even for you.

[rvg]

and the Falklands - again twice if memory serves

I'm beginning to notice a pattern...

[Husar]

I'm beginning to notice a pattern...

Exactly. Two wrongs do indeed make a right, thus proving Sarmatian's point.

[Beskar]

Falklands is a British issue where the British do not really want it but they have an obligation to uphold the safety and security of those on the island. Also, Argentina keeps messing things up everytime they try to implement things such as 'shared sovereignty' or recognition of independence for the isles. Gibraltar too.

Also, those areas are fiercely patriotic when it comes to things British which makes it even more awkward.

[Myth]

I hear that Flanders wants to similarly become independent. Frags, can you shed some light? Apparently they want to take 200 billion of your debt, but they want to be a separate country from Wallonia and that Brussels can become a nation-state.

I also hear that southern Italy and Sicilly wants to be separate from northern Italy. And that Venice wants to be completely independent.

Also Catalonia in spain wants to be independent AFAIK.

I personally am more a fan of the return of the free Greek City States. Who wouldn't want to live in the democratic city state of Sparta?

But seriously though, this cessation business: are we to expect a new map of Europe in a year or two?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Falklands is a British issue where the British do not really want it but they have an obligation to uphold the safety and security of those on the island. Also, Argentina keeps messing things up everytime they try to implement things such as 'shared sovereignty' or recognition of independence for the isles. Gibraltar too.

Also, those areas are fiercely patriotic when it comes to things British which makes it even more awkward.

Speak for yourself.

Most Brits I know, when asked about handing Argentina the Falklands respond with "over our dead bodies".

Part of the reason these territories want to remain British is because we give a fig for them.

[rvg]

Most Brits I know, when asked about handing Argentina the Falklands respond with "over our dead bodies".

Argentina made a huge mistake by trying to use force back in '82. They won't see "Islas Malvinas" again for as long as Great Britain exists. This is now a matter of principle.

[Gilrandir]

I say this as somebody who sympathizes with the Crimean Russians, they have already had their languages official status removed by a part neo-Nazi government.

Crimea has its own constitution, according to which Crimea HAS THREE OFFICIAL LANGUAGES: Ukrainian, Russian, Crimean Tatar. They are planning to remove Ukrainian - a very anti-Nazi move.