Ukraine-in-a-thread

[HoreTore]

Que? When did I not?

I just argued how idiotic and hypocritical it was for the US (and most of the "west" in general) to act all high and mighty, cry foul, cite international law when they've done similar or worse things many times in the past, and as recently as several years ago.

It was a case of pot calling the kettle black from the beginning.

The serbs started to ethnically cleanse Kosovo.

The situations are not at all similar. This time around, it's the Crimeans who are driving around whacking innocents.

[Husar]

Que? When did I not?

I just argued how idiotic and hypocritical it was for the US (and most of the "west" in general) to act all high and mighty, cry foul, cite international law when they've done similar or worse things many times in the past, and as recently as several years ago.

It was a case of pot calling the kettle black from the beginning.

I think the pro-US agenda boys can't hear that because it's blotted out by their own hypocritical propaganda screams and fearmongering.
Instead, anyone who criticizes both sides is a Russian shill to a lot of them.

I'm still not a fan of Putin but maybe Russia should have sanctioned the West when NATO kept taking one country after another way beyond the Elbe river, where they had previously agreed to stop. Now Ukraine was about to turn far towards the West and with a bunch of fascists in the government. Russia simply put a stop to this regarding the Crimean peninsula. It's certainly not a nice way but there was hardly a nicer choice if they didn't want to risk losing their bases there sooner or later.

How was the original gifting of Crimea to the Ukraine in 1954 legal anyway? Could Obama just gift Texas to Mexico tomorrow? Or France gift Normandy to Britain? Is it so surprising that a lot of Crimeans would rather be Russians even without armed men around?

The whole Hitler rhetoric and that Russia is not going to stop is relatively baseless so far, could have said the same about Bush or assumed that Obama would topple every pro-western dictator after Libya.

[Husar]

Here's an interesting interview on how the west is largely to blame for this:

http://www.tagesschau.de/ausland/ukr...-posth100.html

http://translate.google.de/translate...-posth100.html

And this: http://edition.cnn.com/2014/03/04/op...ussia-opinion/

But any suggestions that the Kremlin is actually ready to start a full-blown invasion of Ukraine are way, way off the mark. This would be very dangerous for Russia itself, considering it close links with Ukraine on all levels. So the hysteria surrounding the Russian involvement in Crimea at the moment is either caused by ignorance or is a result of the deep suspicions that the West still has about Russia, Cold War or no Cold War.

[Gilrandir]

Meanwhile Maidan goverment announced mobilization of 40K reservist, while they already declared a full mobilization of all reserves couple weeks a go. Didnt anybody show up the last time?

On the contrary. When people came two weeks ago they were just registered and taken contact information. There were actually so many of them that the military enlistment offices were in fact abashed and didn't know what to do with such quantity. So all people were turned back and they are supposed to arrive there on short notice.
Now only those who have a previous military experience will be called now into the army and any volunteers can enlist into the national guard.

[Gilrandir]

"Yeah, the interrim government are the real fascists." Of course not. They are freedom fighters who never ever assault opposition, throw Cocktail Molotov or stormed official buildings. Their celebration of SS and their racist, anti-Semitic rant and calls for murders are just part of a nice and lovely folklore.

The anti-semitic interrim government appointed Igor Kolomoisky (the head of the Ukrainian jewish community) the head of Dnipropetrovsk regional state administration (aka governor). He himself remarked: "Either they are not Nazis, or I'm not jewish". A specific example that proves nothing?

[Gilrandir]

How was the original gifting of Crimea to the Ukraine in 1954 legal anyway? Could Obama just gift Texas to Mexico tomorrow? Or France gift Normandy to Britain? Is it so surprising that a lot of Crimeans would rather be Russians even without armed men around?

Read my post somewhere above. First of all, it was done within one country - the Soviet Union. It could be considered a reshaping of administrative division of the country. It was done since most of the Crimea's economic ties were (and are) with Ukrainian mainland. Secondly, it was not a GIFT. In exchange Russia received a strip of densely populated land along Ukraine's eastern border the city of Taganrog included.

[Husar]

Read my post somewhere above. First of all, it was done within one country - the Soviet Union. It could be considered a reshaping of administrative division of the country. It was done since most of the Crimea's economic ties were (and are) with Ukrainian mainland. Secondly, it was not a GIFT. In exchange Russia received a strip of densely populated land along Ukraine's eastern border the city of Taganrog included.

You're right, I read that and forgot about it. The population is still pretty much Russian though. Maybe the region around Taganrog should hold a referendum to join Ukraine?

[Sarmatian]

The serbs started to ethnically cleanse Kosovo.

The situations are not at all similar. This time around, it's the Crimeans who are driving around whacking innocents.

Ethnically cleanse? No. Oppress? Yes.

Unless you call 2000 casualties on both sides after two years of fighting ethnic cleansing. If it was, considering the disparity of forces, it was quite clearly the most poorly executed ethnic cleansing since Ugh-ugh decided that those living in another cave are taking all the mammoths for themselves.

When did you? Until now.

I'm hardly gonna quote myself. Read the thread from the beginning, if you're interested.

[HoreTore]

Ethnically cleanse? No. Oppress? Yes.

Unless you call 2000 casualties on both sides after two years of fighting ethnic cleansing. If it was, considering the disparity of forces, it was quite clearly the most poorly executed ethnic cleansing since Ugh-ugh decided that those living in another cave are taking all the mammoths for themselves.

When does "ethnic cleansing" equal "kill"?

[Myth]

Don't you badmouth Ugh-Ugh mister. He was a gentleman and a cave painter.

[rvg]

When does "ethnic cleansing" equal "kill"?

[Sarmatian]

When does "ethnic cleansing" equal "kill"?

It doesn't mean kill exclusively, but it is included in the meaning. So, what do you mean? Displacement? There hasn't been a single community moved anywhere.

[rvg]

By the way, is Mitrovica administered from Belgrade or is it mostly self-governing?

[Sarmatian]

By the way, is Mitrovica administered from Belgrade or is it mostly self-governing?

Not directly, but channels are open for coordination when needed.

[HoreTore]

It doesn't mean kill exclusively, but it is included in the meaning. So, what do you mean? Displacement? There hasn't been a single community moved anywhere.

It is your opinion that the Serbs did not intend to reduce Albanian influence in Kosovo, and increase Serbian influence?

EDIT: And what was Milosevic and his cronies charged with, if I may ask...?

[Sarmatian]

It is your opinion that the Serbs did not intend to reduce Albanian influence in Kosovo, and increase Serbian influence?

No. Did I mention oppression?

How does that equate to ethnic cleansing, though?

[HoreTore]

No. Did I mention oppression?

How does that equate to ethnic cleansing, though?

How many refugees fled Kosovo again?

[Sarmatian]

How many refugees fled Kosovo again?

Before, during or after the bombing?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Let's all agree that we don't want war to erupt. From that point of view, what other means are there to halt a supposed annexation of eastern Ukraine? Furthermore, why should anyone try to stop it if they themselves want to be a part of Russia? Or independent? I mean, didn't the USA bomb Serbia to get Kosovo the right to cessate?

secede, not cessate

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Local news suggests that Putin will bow to the will of the Crimean people and allow them to join Russia. Noble of him.

[Sarmatian]

Local news suggests that Putin will bow to the will of the Crimean people and allow them to join Russia. Noble of him.

Well, he is a flawless democrat. He simply can't go against the will of the people.

[rvg]

Local news suggests that Putin will bow to the will of the Crimean people and allow them to join Russia. Noble of him.

And so an Orthodox Slavic country A forcibly steals land from an Orthodox Slavic country B to avenge the injustice suffered by an Orthodox Slavic country C.
Balance has been restored.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Well, he is a flawless democrat. He simply can't go against the will of the people.

Funny how thousands of Russian troops make Russia popular.

IRRC, Crimea voted with the rest of Ukraine for independence - regardless of what happened in 1954.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Funny how thousands of Russian troops make Russia popular.

IRRC, Crimea voted with the rest of Ukraine for independence - regardless of what happened in 1954.

Perhaps they didn't want Yeltsin? Or they preferred for the new Russia to stabilize first before rejoining?

[rvg]

Funny how thousands of Russian troops make Russia popular.

IRRC, Crimea voted with the rest of Ukraine for independence - regardless of what happened in 1954.

The funny thing is that back in 1991 the independence vote also was over 90%.

[Sarmatian]

Balance has been restored.

So, Putin is the Chosen One? Or he's fallen to dark side and his son will eventually bring him back to the light side?

[Kagemusha]

And what happens next? My guess is lot of hot air from West and nothing else. From here on Russia is going to wait for elections in Ukraine proper, now that it has shown that pro West government simply cant do business with Russia. Ukrainians will find out that the West is not going to do anything for them and that Russia will do what they wish unless they get more pro Russian government to Ukraine. The bigger kid has slapped the smaller in the sandbox, because the smaller one did not do as the bigger one wanted.

[HoreTore]

Before, during or after the bombing?

I will direct you to p.134.

[rvg]

So, Putin is the Chosen One? Or he's fallen to dark side and his son will eventually bring him back to the light side?

He's just a thief. He robs his people of their wealth, then robs other countries of their land in order to pacify his people. In the meantime, it'll be back to business as usual: stealing budget money allocated to the fresh "Crimea Project". That's many billions of dollars waiting to be apprehended.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

He's just a thief. He robs his people of their wealth, then robs other countries of their land in order to pacify his people. In the meantime, it'll be back to business as usual: stealing budget money allocated to the fresh "Crimea Project". That's many billions of dollars waiting to be apprehended.

At least Putin's cronies are lining their pockets. Beat the HOHO out of arranging traffic jams for political opponents.