Ukraine-in-a-thread

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Yes, of course. You have legitimate storming by freedom lovers crowds, and the ones guided by the FSB.

"I also remember that back in 2003 it was all a lot foggier." Not really: French, Germans and Belgium (and Russian, but they can't be trusted) secret services were telling there were no WMD. And the UN. The USA helped by UK agencies distorted reports until they launched an illegal invasion on a false pretense. And yes, Saddam couldn't admit he hadn't some, it could have been seen as a weak point by his neighbors he attacked few times.
No fog at all, Bush and his administration wanted a war against Iraq and did everything to have it.

But I thought you said WE stirred up the Kyiv protesters?

So - logically - this MUST be the FSB.

[gaelic cowboy]

delete


found the figures i was looking for

[Husar]

He *tries* and more importantly *fails*. Not even the Turkish president supports him. He may want to be like Putin, he isn't.

By that standard you can't blame Hitler for trying to conquer Europe and exterminating the Jews because he failed with both.
We already mentioned though that Turkey and some other countries were already in NATO when they actually were dictatorships.

And the missiles were there long before he was in power.

The German Patriot missiles that are supposed to defend him from Syria?
The nukes are different, stationing them there was just an act of American aggression towards the USSR, different topic.

I meant primarily - prevented the Taliban from cutting his head off. He has been "difficult" for the West to deal with for some time and we stopped giving him real political support before the LAST election, irrc.

And yet you think our choice of allies and people to support is always perfect?

Ultimately - the invasion was punitive, that objective was achieved once we had ousted the Taliban. All the NATO lives spent since have been about putting the country back together. Something that would have been easier without Iraq.

Yes, more flawless decision-making from the West. Why is America allowed to take revenge and other countries are not?

The key point is that the Western democracies have matured to the point that they no longer install dictators or support them AGAINST their populace.

Some would argue that this does not apply to the EU, but somehow it went from undemocratic dictatorship that takes our incandescents away to arbiter of freedom and democracy within a few days.

Yes - I remember - I also remember that back in 2003 it was all a lot foggier. Papa said he thought what Sadam was hiding was that he DIDN'T have any WMD's. That was only really apparent after, though.

If WMDs are such a great reason to invade, why is North Korea still a country?
And how does not knowing jack make the reasoning for the invasion any better? They still invented loads of whacky theories to justify it in public.

[gaelic cowboy]

World Bank


I found this and essentially kazachstan is not better off than estonia.


in fact estonia is classified high income by the world bank as opposed to upper middle income for kazachstan


seeing as how one is 12.5 times bigger and full of oil and gas its funny how its not 12.5 times better off.



even life expectancy is better, prob has summit to do with the fact estonia is a democracy and kazachstan is not.


i notice russia itself has a smaller gdp per capita than estonia

in fact you picked the best former republic that's not in the eu, and its still less than estonia

most of these "sphere of influence" or "near abroad" places are around 6000 or less


GDP per capita figures

kirgyzstan 1160
kazachstan 12116
turkmenistan 6798
uzbebekistan 1717
georgia 3490
ukraine 3867
moldova 2038
belarus 6685
Azerbaijan 7164
armenia 3351

russia 14037


estonia 16717
latvia 14008
lithuania 14183
poland 12708
chech republic 18683
slovakia 16847
hungary 12531
romania 9036
bulgaria 6978
croatia 13881
slovenia 22000


romania bulgaria are worst however i expect there gdp will get better now there allowed freedom of movement.

also even the 2 worst are still better than the majority of the ex soviet countries that are not in the eu.

[Sarmatian]

World Bank


I found this and essentially kazachstan is not better off than estonia.


in fact estonia is classified high income by the world bank as opposed to upper middle income for kazachstan


seeing as how one is 12.5 times bigger and full of oil and gas its funny how its not 12.5 times better off.



even life expectancy is better, prob has summit to do with the fact estonia is a democracy and kazachstan is not.


i notice russia itself has a smaller gdp per capita than estonia

in fact you picked the best former republic that's not in the eu, and its still less than estonia

most of these "sphere of influence" or "near abroad" places are around 6000 or less

romania bulgaria are worst however i expect there gdp will get better now there allowed freedom of movement.

also even the 2 worst are still better than the majority of the ex soviet countries that are not in the eu.

Even during the Soviet era, the Baltic states had much higher GDP per capita than Kyrgyzstan or Uzbekistan, so it's not really useful if comparing how the countries developed economically after the Soviet era. That's why I compared the increase of GDP per capita. In 2009, Estonia had twice (100%) the GDP per capita of Kazakhstan. In 2013, only around 20% better. At this rate, in 2017, Kazakhstan will race ahead of Estonia.

In 1990, Ukraine and Belarus had comparable GDP per capita, 1597 and and 1705 respectively. In 2013, Ukraine's got 3867 and Belarus 6685.

[Brenus]

“But I thought you said WE stirred up the Kyiv protesters?” Me? When?
I said the movement was a social protest because the Ukrainian Government was unable to answer social requests. As shown in the Arabian Spring (and in other countries), these movements lead to political changes. The movement then was high jacked by the Ukrainian Extreme-Right and the former leaders. The support to the movement (i.e. US & various E.U. Ambassador and Representatives) and the storming of the Parliament left the Russian Minorities (but probably some others) excluded from the decisions making. The anti-Russian and pro-European stance by our media probably didn’t help to calm down these minorities. The past of some leaders and the un-answered questions about what happened created a vacuum. The interim government (not recognised by Moscow as explained) took some decisions that shouldn’t been its first priorities. Then we know what happened.

So, where did I say the movement was guided by the CIA? Yes, we did stirred-up the situation by inflammatory comments.
YOU are saying that the Russian masses are so stupid that they want to be enslaved by Putin, elected dictator, thanks to the FBS, as they watch only the Russian TV, which pre-supposed they were brain-washed even before. Again, some stupid stupid people who prefer enslavement than freedom... When this will be ended? Let's bomb them to free them. Freedom (well our view of freedom) or death!!!

[Husar]

YOU are saying that the Russian masses are so stupid that they want to be enslaved by Putin, elected dictator, thanks to the FBS, as they watch only the Russian TV, which pre-supposed they were brain-washed even before. Again, some stupid stupid people who prefer enslavement than freedom... When this will be ended? Let's bomb them to free them. Freedom (well our view of freedom) or death!!!

Not only, this, we want freedom for them, but please only within their own country. If they want the freedom to live and work in our country, we demand that our governments keep them out. A lot of poor people want money and a proper standard of living more than a democratic government, which is why financial reasons motivated a lot of the arab spring and the ukrainian uprising. A lot of the North Africans tried to escape to Europe to have a better life as soon as their dictators couldn't prevent that anymore. But our European arbiters of freedom wouldn't grant them that freedom however.

http://www.gisti.org/spip.php?article3261

[HoreTore]

That's why I compared the increase of GDP per capita. In 2009, Estonia had twice (100%) the GDP per capita of Kazakhstan. In 2013, only around 20% better. At this rate, in 2017, Kazakhstan will race ahead of Estonia.

Lies, damned lies and statistics...

Estonia was hit extremely hard by the financial crisis, amongst the hardest hit in the world. However, they have made a massive recovery from it, and are fast-tracking back to where they were pre-2008.

In other words, the decrease seen relative to Kazakhstan is unlikely to continue.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

By that standard you can't blame Hitler for trying to conquer Europe and exterminating the Jews because he failed with both.
We already mentioned though that Turkey and some other countries were already in NATO when they actually were dictatorships.

IRRC, Turkey was a democracy when it joined NATO - and that was yesterday, not today. Which European countries WERE Dictatorships is not at issue, what is happening in Russia is. The whole argument is a strawman, as are the vacillations of the current Turkish PM.

Turkey's institutions have thus far managed to prevent him doing serious or permanent harm, and if he continues like this he really does risk impeachment.

The German Patriot missiles that are supposed to defend him from Syria?
The nukes are different, stationing them there was just an act of American aggression towards the USSR, different topic.

Oh, yes, sorry. How is this relevant, providing cover for the residents of Turkey and their democratically elected government?

Weren't you the one saying we should be consistent and not just back the democracies we like?

And yet you think our choice of allies and people to support is always perfect?

No. I never said any such thing.

Yes, more flawless decision-making from the West. Why is America allowed to take revenge and other countries are not?

Al Qaeda declared war on the US, killed thousands of US Citizens, and the Taliban supported them. So the US invaded Afghanistan - because what else were they going to do?

Some would argue that this does not apply to the EU, but somehow it went from undemocratic dictatorship that takes our incandescents away to arbiter of freedom and democracy within a few days.

I take no issue with the stated purpose of the EU - I take issue with it's structure. While it does force members to conform to its mandate - it doesn't force anyone to join. The Eastern Bloc countries went in knowing what they were being sold, it's the older members that got fleeced.

This is still really nothing to do with Putin.

If WMDs are such a great reason to invade, why is North Korea still a country?
And how does not knowing jack make the reasoning for the invasion any better? They still invented loads of whacky theories to justify it in public.

Well - it wasn't about annexing Iraq - Putin is clearly making a show of invading Ukraine for just that reason.

Why are we still arguing this?

Is it right for Putin to roll tanks into Eastern Ukraine and annex it?

Was it right to annex Crimea?

Was it right to (informally) annex South Ossetia?

[Rhyfelwyr]

Protesters declars Donetsk Republic

It is unclear I think at this stage who the gunmen were that stormed the building. Could be a popular revolt or it could be unmarked Russian soldiers as in Crimea. Will be interesting to see Putin's stance on this.

[Gilrandir]

Lies, damned lies and statistics...

Estonia was hit extremely hard by the financial crisis, amongst the hardest hit in the world. However, they have made a massive recovery from it, and are fast-tracking back to where they were pre-2008.

In other words, the decrease seen relative to Kazakhstan is unlikely to continue.

I don't understand all this fuss about GDP per capita, economic growth percentage and stuff like that. I am sure the figures don't convey anything of what is really going on in the country nor reflect the life conditions of each person. There is a joke: I ate a whole chicken for dinner and my neighbor went to bed hungry, so statistically each of us ate half a chicken on the average. Getting personally, my (and my parents') financial situation was much worse in 2003-2004 when Ukraine was reported to be displaying the economic growth of 9-11% (according to different assessments) then it is now with the negative growth. Any conclusions and comparisons based on this statistical bullsh... are especially wrong when it goes about the former USSR countries since most of the money such a country makes doesn't reach the ordinary people. Corruption, embezzlement, frauds in those countries leave the ordinary people in lurch and those at power enjoy all the benefits they may. As Sarmatian demonstrated, statistically Kazakhstan is better off then Estonia. But have you heard of hunger riots in Estonia? Well, there were some in Kazakhstan a couple of years ago. In Genauzen (or Novy Uzen) oilers were not paid for quite a long time and when they demanded the wages their protests were severely suppressed with some casualties. Perhaps nobody told them how statistically fine their lives were.
So when politicians boast of economic growth percentage, they remind me of guys who try to measure whose D.I.C.K., oops, I should say GDP is longer. They are not interested (or keep it hush) who enjoys the inches, oops, the figures.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Protesters declars Donetsk Republic

It is unclear I think at this stage who the gunmen were that stormed the building. Could be a popular revolt or it could be unmarked Russian soldiers as in Crimea. Will be interesting to see Putin's stance on this.

Third photo down - two guys clean shaven, nondescript clothes, quiet, the guy next to them with longer hair doing the talking.

Looks like two soldiers and an Officer.

[HoreTore]

I don't understand all this fuss about GDP per capita, economic growth percentage and stuff like that. I am sure the figures don't convey anything of what is really going on in the country nor reflect the life conditions of each person. There is a joke: I ate a whole chicken for dinner and my neighbor went to bed hungry, so statistically each of us ate half a chicken on the average. Getting personally, my (and my parents') financial situation was much worse in 2003-2004 when Ukraine was reported to be displaying the economic growth of 9-11% (according to different assessments) then it is now with the negative growth. Any conclusions and comparisons based on this statistical bullsh... are especially wrong when it goes about the former USSR countries since most of the money such a country makes doesn't reach the ordinary people. Corruption, embezzlement, frauds in those countries leave the ordinary people in lurch and those at power enjoy all the benefits they may. As Sarmatian demonstrated, statistically Kazakhstan is better off then Estonia. But have you heard of hunger riots in Estonia? Well, there were some in Kazakhstan a couple of years ago. In Genauzen (or Novy Uzen) oilers were not paid for quite a long time and when they demanded the wages their protests were severely suppressed with some casualties. Perhaps nobody told them how statistically fine their lives were.
So when politicians boast of economic growth percentage, they remind me of guys who try to measure whose D.I.C.K., oops, I should say GDP is longer. They are not interested (or keep it hush) who enjoys the inches, oops, the figures.

There are several measurements, and others measure what you talk about here.

[Sarmatian]

Lies, damned lies and statistics...

Estonia was hit extremely hard by the financial crisis, amongst the hardest hit in the world. However, they have made a massive recovery from it, and are fast-tracking back to where they were pre-2008.

In other words, the decrease seen relative to Kazakhstan is unlikely to continue.

Nah. 2009-2013 was the best possible time period to compare it, because Estonian economy started recovering from a huuuge dip.



2007 to 2013 would make the difference much greater, again in favour of Kazakhstan.

IRRC, Turkey was a democracy when it joined NATO - and that was yesterday, not today. Which European countries WERE Dictatorships is not at issue, what is happening in Russia is. The whole argument is a strawman, as are the vacillations of the current Turkish PM.

Turkey's institutions have thus far managed to prevent him doing serious or permanent harm, and if he continues like this he really does risk impeachment.

Not really true. Even though I admire Turkey for standing up republican values, being practically the only predominantly Muslim country that did, calling Turkey a democracy is pushing it. Human rights, women rights, minority rights, killing off undesirables... Hopefully they won't turn their back to Ataturk's legacy, but even if they do, they won't be expelled from NATO.

Protesters declars Donetsk Republic

It is unclear I think at this stage who the gunmen were that stormed the building. Could be a popular revolt or it could be unmarked Russian soldiers as in Crimea. Will be interesting to see Putin's stance on this.

Read Russia Today, that's as close as it gets.

Further moves into Ukraine are unlikely. It will be used for propaganda purposes to show that decentralization of Ukraine is the only solution otherwise the country could collapse.

[HoreTore]

Read Russia Today, that's as close as it gets.

Should we also watch Jerry Falwell's network to see what the gays are up to?

[Sarmatian]

Should we also watch Jerry Falwell's network to see what the gays are up to?

I don't know what you're talking about. Russia Today is totally legitimate voice of Put... er, Russia, so if Rhy wants to know Putin's stance, it's next best thing.

[Fisherking]

what the Ukrainian government thinks: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26917335

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Should we also watch Jerry Falwell's network to see what the gays are up to?

Robertson and Schuller have access to networks. Falwell did for a time, but that was sold off even before his death. Falwell was not a fan of the LGBT equality movement, though he did end up funding a rec/info center for them.

[Sarmatian]

Rather interesting fact.

Only 1 in 6 of Americans can point accurately to where's Ukraine on the world map.

What's more is that the farther a respondents' guesses were from Ukraine, the more they wanted the U.S. to intervene with military force, according to the researchers. This is despite the fact that two-thirds of Americans report following the conflict in Ukraine "somewhat closely."

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Not really true. Even though I admire Turkey for standing up republican values, being practically the only predominantly Muslim country that did, calling Turkey a democracy is pushing it. Human rights, women rights, minority rights, killing off undesirables... Hopefully they won't turn their back to Ataturk's legacy, but even if they do, they won't be expelled from NATO.

Ahhh - then neither is France a democracy!

Good to know.

[Fisherking]

Rather interesting fact.

Only 1 in 6 of Americans can point accurately to where's Ukraine on the world map.

That will only derail the thread. Better start another if you really want answers.

[HoreTore]

Ahhh - then neither is France a democracy!

Good to know.

I see you're standing in a nice house made of glass; here, have some stones.

[Sarmatian]

That will only derail the thread. Better start another if you really want answers.

I'm not trying to say Americans are ignorant in general. The point is this part - What's more is that the farther a respondents' guesses were from Ukraine, the more they wanted the U.S. to intervene with military force, according to the researchers. This is despite the fact that two-thirds of Americans report following the conflict in Ukraine "somewhat closely."


The problem is those that are advocating military solution are those who know the least about the situation.

Ahhh - then neither is France a democracy!

Good to know.

We've already established that France is a dictatorship.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I see you're standing in a nice house made of glass; here, have some stones.

France is a Republic, and so is Turkey - Syria is a Dictatorship and Russia is a Tyranny - Iran is a Theocratic Republic, the UK is a Theocratic Monarchy and Norway is a Constitutional Monarchy.

Of course - we like to pretend Turkey is a Dictatorship, Russia a Republic, Syria a Tyranny, Iran a Rogue State, the UK a Constitutional Monarchy and Norway a Democracy.

In general parlance, however, France and Turkey are both "democracies" in that they have elections periodically to boot out their incumbent rulers.

Now... back to discussing his Imperial Majesty Vladimir I.

[rvg]

Now... back to discussing his Imperial Majesty Vladimir I.

By the grace of the Lord, Vladimir the First, Emperor and Autocrat of All Russia, Moscow, Kiev, Vladimir, Novgorod; Tsar of Kazan, Tsar of Astrakhan, Tsar of Poland, Tsar of Siberia, Tsar of Taurica, Tsar of Georgia, Lord of Pskov, Grand Duke of Smolensk, Lithuania, Volhynia, Podolia, and Finland; Prince of Estlandia, Liftland, Courland and Semigalia, Samogitia, Byalostok, Korela, Tver, Ugra, Perm, Vyatka, Bolgar and others; Lord and Grand Duke of Lower Novgorod, Chernigov, Ryazan, Polotsk, Rostov, Yaroslavl, Beloozero, Udor, Obdor, Konda, Vitebsk, Mstislav and all northlands, Lord and Ruler of Iverian, Kartlian, and Kabardinian lands, and Armenian provinces; Hereditary Lord and Master of Circassian and Mountain Princes; Lord of Turkestan, Heir of Norway, Duke of Schleswig-Holstein, Stornmarn, Ditmar, and Oldenburg, and others, and others, and others.


Putin has his work cut out for him in the years to come.

[Sir Moody]

the UK is a Theocratic Monarchy

we are?

Since when did the Church of England take over the state... last I checked it was the other way round - we are a Constitutional Monarchy.

In a Theocracy the Church runs the state (either indirectly like Iran or directly) - in our system the state runs the Church.

[rvg]

we are?

Since when did the Church of England take over the state... last I checked it was the other way round - we are a Constitutional Monarchy.

In a Theocracy the Church runs the state (either indirectly like Iran or directly) - in our system the state runs the Church.

Because the British Monarch is the Head of the Church and the Head of State.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Rather interesting fact.

Only 1 in 6 of Americans can point accurately to where's Ukraine on the world map.

As to geography, the average Yank is pretty much ignorant. The number you cite is actually HIGHER than our average on most things.

For example, as a for fun extra credit question, I asked 100 students to name the longest river that meets the sea somewhere on the East coast of the USA [btw it is the Susquehanna at the top of Chesapeake Bay]. Please note that I live and teach on that coast. A third didn't try to even answer, about half said the Mississippi River, and one student even answered The Nile.

Be honored, those of you interested in the Ukraine, you have caused 100s of thousands of Yanks to actually learn a little geography and pushed back our general level of ignorance a touch...at least for now.

[Sarmatian]

France is a Republic, and so is Turkey - Syria is a Dictatorship and Russia is a Tyranny - Iran is a Theocratic Republic, the UK is a Theocratic Monarchy and Norway is a Constitutional Monarchy.

Of course - we like to pretend Turkey is a Dictatorship, Russia a Republic, Syria a Tyranny, Iran a Rogue State, the UK a Constitutional Monarchy and Norway a Democracy.

In general parlance, however, France and Turkey are both "democracies" in that they have elections periodically to boot out their incumbent rulers.

You're stretching and narrowing the definition of democracy when it suits your point. If periodic elections are all it takes, than Russia is also a democracy. I'd also like to say that some of the political systems you mentioned don't really exist in reality.

And UK is most certainly NOT a theocratic monarchy.

Now... back to discussing his Imperial Majesty Vladimir I.

This is about Ukraine. There's another thread for Vladimir, of the house Putin, first of his name.

[Sir Moody]

Because the British Monarch is the Head of the Church and the Head of State.

That doesn't make us a theocracy - the Church has no say in the running of Government - it is a separate hierarchy.

In order to be a Theocracy the civil Government would have to be subordinate to the Church not the Monarch - the fact that the heads of both "chains of command" are the same is neither here nor there