Sensationalist UK Headline sparks Eurarabia Scare

[Kadagar_AV]

Ah yes, it is of course so much more horrible than making every tenth animal run for a mile with a bullet in its leg before collapsing due to exhaustion and blood loss to die a slow, slow death.

That's so humane.

Dude, I have already COVERED this argument. I know you don't always read posts twice before you submit, but please pay attention now.

One. Out. Of. Ten.

Does not equal

A. Hundred. Out. Of. A. Hundred.

We do our utmost as human species to better the 1/10 figure. New training, sights, weapons, laws...

Religious idiotic dogma will keep their score at 100/100 indefinitely.

[HoreTore]

Dude, I have already COVERED this argument.

You have made an argument, but it's woefully inadequate and completely misses the point.

Much like the rest of your posting.

Unless, of course, you are saying that 20 seconds of pain is the same thing as 2 days of pain.

[Kadagar_AV]

You have made an argument, but it's woefully inadequate and completely misses the point.

Much like the rest of your posting.

Unless, of course, you are saying that 20 seconds of pain is the same thing as 2 days of pain.

My point is that we as human beings should do our utmost to do the least harm we possibly could - towards our life stock.

Following religious dogma is most definitely not part of that.



Say that you were taken by aliens.

Would you prefer a bolt gun to the head, or would your prefer hanging upside down having your throat slit?

[HoreTore]

My point is that we as human beings should do our utmost to do the least harm we possibly could - towards our life stock.

That would be the end of hunting then, seeing as how it's completely unnecessary as a food source.

Say that you were taken by aliens.

Is this analogy created by your awesome and way-above-average intelligence?

[Kadagar_AV]

That would be the end of hunting then, seeing as how it's completely unnecessary as a food source.

Don't feed the troll.

[Fragony]

Lot's of funky stuff can happen at a slaughter house.

I know, I have worked in one, the shooting pin we use here isn't a perfect method but it works 99% of the time, when it goes wrong it's a horrible sight. But that's a lot better than unnecesary suffering 100% of the time because of idiotic religious rules, no matter how long it takes, be it 20 seconds or a minute. Animal wellware is more important than religion, period.

[HoreTore]

Animal wellware is more important than religion, period.

The proper question is; is it more important than profit?

[Fragony]

The proper question is; is it more important than profit?

Doesn't cost anything extra to butcher them in a humane way. If you want to discuss how these animals are raised and transported, well that's a different discussion.

[Husar]

Meh, when a lion catches a gazelle or a buffalo, it's not pretty or humane either. It doesn't even look humane when a spider catches a fly or when a snake eats its prey pretty much alive. When our ancestors hunted a mammoth, the meat must've been ruined every time because I don't quite see how they could have killed it quickly and surprisingly without causing any stress. I find it important to calm down and appreciate that halal and any other modern slaughtering is much better than any of that for the victims. Now regarding how they live before that, there are quite a few issues left.

[HoreTore]

Meh, when a lion catches a gazelle or a buffalo, it's not pretty or humane either. It doesn't even look humane when a spider catches a fly or when a snake eats its prey pretty much alive. When our ancestors hunted a mammoth, the meat must've been ruined every time because I don't quite see how they could have killed it quickly and surprisingly without causing any stress. I find it important to calm down and appreciate that halal and any other modern slaughtering is much better than any of that for the victims. Now regarding how they live before that, there are quite a few issues left.

This might answer your question.

[Kadagar_AV]

Meh, when a lion catches a gazelle or a buffalo, it's not pretty or humane either. It doesn't even look humane when a spider catches a fly or when a snake eats its prey pretty much alive. When our ancestors hunted a mammoth, the meat must've been ruined every time because I don't quite see how they could have killed it quickly and surprisingly without causing any stress. I find it important to calm down and appreciate that halal and any other modern slaughtering is much better than any of that for the victims. Now regarding how they live before that, there are quite a few issues left.

BS.

The question must remain: Are we 2014 doing the utmost to kill without suffering.

You can not liken that to Gazelles meeting a lion. We rarely kill Gazelles, and we are not lions.

I will never let pass that "someone else do it worse" as an argument. Be it Lions or Muslims or Crocodiles or Jews.

Life should be treated with dignity. Period*.

* if you are human.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Isn't it funny how that as soon as Muslims are involved, everybody on the left suddenly seems a little less caring about the plight of animals, and everybody on the right seems to care a bit more?

[Kadagar_AV]

Isn't it funny how that as soon as Muslims are involved, everybody on the left suddenly seems a little less caring about the plight of animals, and everybody on the right seems to care a bit more?

I have been veggie since I was 11. Killed my first animal when I was 12.

Moot point, in my case.

You just read to much into stuff.

You also seem to read some muslim hatred into this, where I have more or less spat on any religion that treat animals like ****.

[Fragony]

Isn't it funny how that as soon as Muslims are involved, everybody on the left suddenly seems a little less caring about the plight of animals, and everybody on the right seems to care a bit more?

Make that religion in general, jews get smacked just as much when it comes to this. On the right we just don't have any patience for it. The left is struggling with their ambigious respect, that's something they will just have to figure out for themselves how that makes sense to them. How they do it I don't really understand but I have always been bad at leftist logic, I just don't see any.

Edit, beat me to it Kads

Could easily add women and gay rights into the equation on how incredibly confused lefties are on some things.

Respect, yeah

[Husar]

This might answer your question.

There was no question in my post, so what are you answering with that? I already knew that stress makes meat taste bad.

BS.

BS is not a bad thing, quite a few smaller organisms feed from it.

The question must remain: Are we 2014 doing the utmost to kill without suffering.

You can not liken that to Gazelles meeting a lion. We rarely kill Gazelles, and we are not lions.

Shouldn't we also apply that to plants then? And while we are not lions, neither are bears, but bears are omnivores just like we are and also do not care much about the dignity of their meaty prey.

I will never let pass that "someone else do it worse" as an argument. Be it Lions or Muslims or Crocodiles or Jews.

Life should be treated with dignity. Period*.

* if you are human.

Yes, it's a human concept and entirely artificial, just like plastic. And since we try not to bury our animals in plastic (oceans aside), maybe we also shouldn't bury their tasty meat in our artificial abstract ideas.

If a fly or a bug or a spider enters my room, I usually do not treat it with a lot of dignity either. My only concern is how can I kill it without leaving stains on my inanimate luxury stuff.

[Kadagar_AV]

There was no question in my post, so what are you answering with that? I already knew that stress makes meat taste bad.



BS is not a bad thing, quite a few smaller organisms feed from it.



Shouldn't we also apply that to plants then? And while we are not lions, neither are bears, but bears are omnivores just like we are and also do not care much about the dignity of their meaty prey.



Yes, it's a human concept and entirely artificial, just like plastic. And since we try not to bury our animals in plastic (oceans aside), maybe we also shouldn't bury their tasty meat in our artificial abstract ideas.

If a fly or a bug or a spider enters my room, I usually do not treat it with a lot of dignity either. My only concern is how can I kill it without leaving stains on my inanimate luxury stuff.

I guess we differ then.

I generally help insects out from my apartment. Bumblebee? I trap him in a box and help him out.

As to the rest of your argument, BS.

It is 2014, we can do better than hanging an animal upside down and slitting its throat. No?

[Fragony]

I generally help insects out from my apartment. Bumblebee? I trap him in a box and help him out.

Flies are screwed though. Works better with a glass and a piece of paper btw

[Pannonian]

Isn't it funny how that as soon as Muslims are involved, everybody on the left suddenly seems a little less caring about the plight of animals, and everybody on the right seems to care a bit more?

I hold the same view as when I eat chicken that I've seen alive, and during and after death. I'm grateful for the food that I eat, and it's not my business to care how it gets to my plate. Or at least not my business to preach to the farmer about how the chicken was killed. It's a bit like my attitude to all evangelicals, whether or not I agree with their ideals.

[Kadagar_AV]

Flies are screwed though. Works better with a glass and a piece of paper btw

Yepp, I frequently use that method.

No insects or arachnids allowed in my abode. I'll tolerate them outside, in their own habitat, but they're dead bastards if they get caught in mine.

I am not sure they follow common "my abode" thinking... Nor do I think they have some clear cut lines of what is their habitat, except of course "the world".

I hold the same view as when I eat chicken that I've seen alive, and during and after death. I'm grateful for the food that I eat, and it's not my business to care how it gets to my plate. Or at least not my business to preach to the farmer about how the chicken was killed. It's a bit like my attitude to all evangelicals, whether or not I agree with their ideals.

It is very much your business to care what you spend money on. One could even argue that that is the basic of the current democratic world.

You can spend your efforts on eating animals being killed in pain.
Or you can spend your efforts on eating animals not killed in pain.

Do I have to explain what would be the humane choice here?

Do I further needlessly have to explain why bronze/iron age religions should in no way make that choice for you in 2014? But your logical thinking as well as total access to the internet just MIGHT be a better choice?

[Fragony]

No insects or arachnids allowed in my abode. I'll tolerate them outside, in their own habitat, but they're dead bastards if they get caught in mine.

I am a big softie, I don't like killing things, I catch them and show them the door. Except flies. I hate flies.

[Fragony]

You also seem to read some muslim hatred into this, where I have more or less spat on any religion that treat animals like ****.

We sometimes are in perfect agreement skiboy.

[Kadagar_AV]

I used to hate arachnids... but the spider bro meme actually changed my mind. I now just help them out or shove them in the basement.



except my bathroom spider. He is cool and don't bother me. He also keep my bathroom clean.

It's the big ones I get rid of.

[Husar]

I guess we differ then.

I generally help insects out from my apartment. Bumblebee? I trap him in a box and help him out.

As to the rest of your argument, BS.

It is 2014, we can do better than hanging an animal upside down and slitting its throat. No?

I usually do not kill the bigger ones, but I got loads of small ones usually that will just disappear from sight if I try anything but a quick slapping. Hitting my windows with glasses or boxes several times a day hardly sounds like a good idea. But nature just works like that, the strong eat the weak. I'm not advocating making animals suffer greatly, I'm just saying if we want to eat it, it's okay. Before we make life so very comfortable for animals, maybe we should finish making life more comfortable for our own species, which is usually quite a bit more sentient than other species. Before I care about the little pre-programmed bio-robots called insects, I'd rather try to find a solution for war or a fix for whatever is happening in Africa. And by what is happening in Africa I do not mean bushmen piercing a lion from all sides with spears and watching it die. Though you may want to include people hunting entire herds of elephants with machineguns, which is probably one of the blessings and great inventions the military and war brought upon us as we discuss in the other thread.

[Montmorency]

I hate all notions of "animal welfare". This applies to humans as well. It's just that with humans, it is difficult to imagine a functioning urbanized society without "human rights".

And without a functioning urbanized society, humans can not effect their own extinction...

[Kadagar_AV]

Let's bring back the original theme here:

Why should we in the west allow animals to be tortured because of religious dogma?

[Husar]

Let's bring back the original theme here:

Why should we in the west allow animals to be tortured because of religious dogma?

It's not torture because they are not being interviewed and they are not hurt to cause them pain but to kill them in order to serve as food. And why should we not allow that? Because of your "religious dogma" that animals' lives are somehow "holy" and may not be touched?

[Kadagar_AV]

It's not torture because they are not being interviewed and they are not hurt to cause them pain but to kill them in order to serve as food. And why should we not allow that? Because of your "religious dogma" that animals' lives are somehow "holy" and may not be touched?

We can, as a conscious species, do our utmost to diminish or enhance the pain conscious animals go trough in the killing process. No?

Why would you as a thinking person then chose "enhance"?

[Beskar]

Think of all the animals homes which are uprooted and ruined, the masses of pesticide and traps on the crops, the fluffy rabbits being torn apart by combine harvesters just to get something to eat on a dark cloudy morning by the evil farmer. That is the vegetarian lifestyle. Destroying homes, throwing animals into a lack of wilderness where they starve and die to fuel humankind's quest for food. Land being transformed into crops, driving these poor helpless animals to extinction, this would only get worse if our lifestyle changes to a more purely vegetable based diet. It is not the fault of these pitiful helpless creatures that vegetarians don't want to domesticate and eat them.

[Pannonian]

Let's bring back the original theme here:

Why should we in the west allow animals to be tortured because of religious dogma?

Because the people whose country you're commenting on has a vote on the issue while you who live elsewhere do not?

[Kadagar_AV]

Because the people whose country you're commenting on has a vote on the issue while you who live elsewhere do not?

Yeah... It's not like the Islamist plague has spread pretty much everywhere by now? Or?