Ukraine-in-a-thread

[Kadagar_AV]

IMO the difference is that multiculturalism is a peaceful coexistance with partial blending and cooperation while segregation may be peaceful, but severely lacks the cooperation and the partial blending of cultures and people.

As such, multiculturalism is more of an ideal that fails not just because of the immigrants, but also because the host countries often fail to implement it. The USA are actually a kind of multicultural society in some ways, less so in others. I also know some educated turkish people who fit very well into our society but have still retained quite a few parts of their turkish culture, I would see them as some ideal of multiculturalism. I am well aware that this is certainly not the case with all of them and becomes more problematic the "poorer" (or more criminal) the neighborhood gets.

And what I dislike about lamenting the failure of multiculturalism is that it's often exactly this defeatist attitude and these prejudices against the immigrants, the idea that "we will never get along anyway, so why talk to them?" that leads to a failure of multiculturalism. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

It's always easy to say "well, humans are just like that, they are xenophobic", yeah, nothing we can do. But humans also can't fly, did we give up on that as well or did we experiment until we managed to make it work? We love to praise ourselves for scientific advancements but when it comes to social advancements we shrug our soldiers and say "nothing we can do about it". IMO that simply speaks of unwillingness instead of inability because we look down on such defeatist attitudes in science and business.

I asked you for an example of a multicultural society that isn't segregated.

USA was the closest you could do?

Seriously, the racial maps made on the US cities disagrees with that notion...

[The Lurker Below]

I asked you for an example of a multicultural society that isn't segregated.

USA was the closest you could do?

Seriously, the racial maps made on the US cities disagrees with that notion...

Does society have to include entire nations that cover half a continent? Would you care to check out Austin TX? The higher education there have led to cultures from around the world gathering, and frequently staying. Probably quite a few communities around the world that have similar experiences.

[Kadagar_AV]

Does society have to include entire nations that cover half a continent? Would you care to check out Austin TX? The higher education there have led to cultures from around the world gathering, and frequently staying. Probably quite a few communities around the world that have similar experiences.

If we talk about national levels, it would be prudent to exemplify on national levels, no?

Do you mean this Austin TX?

[Husar]

I asked you for an example of a multicultural society that isn't segregated.

USA was the closest you could do?

Seriously, the racial maps made on the US cities disagrees with that notion...

I said it mostly fails, there are examples where it works and examples where it clearly doesn't. That many humans do not want it to work does not make it a bad idea by the way. The USA are built upon immigration, just look at cities such as New York. The Afroamericans, the Italoamericans, the Judeoamericans and the Russoamericans may all have their own quarters and some of them are more intermixed than others but at the same time they are all proud to be Americans and they have also kept at least traces of their original culture usually.
You will always find problems and things that do not work, but you also find those in single cultures. If you have only one culture left, you start to get quibbles over other issues such as families or politics, finances and so on. Or should I say financial culture, political culture, family cultures etc.?

And that's why Ukraine is not a good example for the failures of multiculturalism, because no matter how close two cultures are, if people want to find a problem or a difference, they will find one and if they don't, they won't. Even if you had a 100% culturally German neighborhood, you could still get problems and issues between the socialists and the capitalists or between people who listen to rock music and people who listen to rap music. Some people go to court over garden gnome culture wars in their neighborhood, is it multiculturalism if a german who likes garden gnomes and a german who thinks they are ugly live side by side or is that segregation because they do not share a house?

[Viking]

It's always easy to say "well, humans are just like that, they are xenophobic", yeah, nothing we can do. But humans also can't fly, did we give up on that as well or did we experiment until we managed to make it work? We love to praise ourselves for scientific advancements but when it comes to social advancements we shrug our soldiers and say "nothing we can do about it". IMO that simply speaks of unwillingness instead of inability because we look down on such defeatist attitudes in science and business.

Some might say that misoxeny/xenophobia is what gives multiculturalism problems. And it sure does give multiculturalism problems.

But from my perspective, there is a completely unrelated and much more fundamental thing that makes multiculturalism a problem in itself. Yes, even if we designed "perfect" humans that are neither misoxenic nor xenophobic, multiculturalism would be a problem.

That's because of the role culture plays in human societies. An average human culture provides moral codes and identity. The purpose of culture is to be a glue for society, to keep it together. When different cultures meet, they'll either attempt to segregate or compete for dominance Two different cultures cannot keep a group of people together, because that is not how cultures work. You cannot think that something is both morally right and morally wrong at the same time, for example. Neither can you think that family is most important and that the individual is most important at the same time.

When two different groups of people who disagree on core principles of morality are creating laws that are valid for both, that does not fare the best. This is of course not a dilemma that requires multiculturalism; people from the same culture can still disagree on basic moral ideas.

My idea is something like that in a monocultural society, internal friction lies between 0.05-0.3 - while in a multicultural society, it's between 0.25-0.7. My idea is that no matter how hard you try to transform a multicultural society into the ideal society, it will still never function as well as a monocultural society can. Neither in practice nor theory.

- - -

If all of Ukraine spoke Ukrainian and considered itself as ethnic Ukrainian, it would take a lot more for separatism to even at all be noticeable. Even if Western Ukraine was capitalist, Eastern Ukraine socialist and Russia also socialist, it wouldn't be very likely that separatism would find a foothold in the east. That's because even if they considered themselves socialist or capitalist, they'd still consider themselves as Ukrainian, not Russian. They'd rather want to convert the other half into socialism than join socialist Russia.

[Kadagar_AV]

I said it mostly fails, there are examples where it works and examples where it clearly doesn't. That many humans do not want it to work does not make it a bad idea by the way. The USA are built upon immigration, just look at cities such as New York. The Afroamericans, the Italoamericans, the Judeoamericans and the Russoamericans may all have their own quarters and some of them are more intermixed than others but at the same time they are all proud to be Americans and they have also kept at least traces of their original culture usually.
You will always find problems and things that do not work, but you also find those in single cultures. If you have only one culture left, you start to get quibbles over other issues such as families or politics, finances and so on. Or should I say financial culture, political culture, family cultures etc.?

And that's why Ukraine is not a good example for the failures of multiculturalism, because no matter how close two cultures are, if people want to find a problem or a difference, they will find one and if they don't, they won't. Even if you had a 100% culturally German neighborhood, you could still get problems and issues between the socialists and the capitalists or between people who listen to rock music and people who listen to rap music. Some people go to court over garden gnome culture wars in their neighborhood, is it multiculturalism if a german who likes garden gnomes and a german who thinks they are ugly live side by side or is that segregation because they do not share a house?

As to the bolded part, yes, it was those examples I asked you to provide.

USA is segregated, end of story.

So don't try to whim it all up going on about how a segregated society could possibly still maybe perhaps work...

You argued against multiculturalism = segregation.

How is any of that multiculturalism instead of segregation?

I asked you to provide a single case where multiple cultures within a national border has ever NOT led to segregation.

So far you have failed.

Also: what Viking said.

[Husar]

That's because of the role culture plays in human societies. An average human culture provides moral codes and identity. The purpose of culture is to be a glue for society, to keep it together. When different cultures meet, they'll either attempt to segregate or compete for dominance Two different cultures cannot keep a group of people together, because that is not how cultures work. You cannot think that something is both morally right and morally wrong at the same time, for example. Neither can you think that family is most important and that the individual is most important at the same time.

When two different groups of people who disagree on core principles of morality are creating laws that are valid for both, that does not fare the best. This is of course not a dilemma that requires multiculturalism; people from the same culture can still disagree on basic moral ideas.

Yes, so that's not really the issue, but you seem to think that multiculturalism is about us inviting the Taliban over and then arguing over who gets to make the laws. I think that is a fundamentally wrong assumption and while there may be fringe nutters who think that is what we should do, I'm pretty certain that most multiculturalists expect the immigrants who come here to respect and abide by our laws. Not every culture or every aspect of a culture has to mean that one favors completely different laws. Political refugees for example don't usually come here because they prefer the laws in their home country. Would you migrate to another country and then tell them all their laws are wrong and that you don't like to be there?

My idea is something like that in a monocultural society, internal friction lies between 0.05-0.3 - while in a multicultural society, it's between 0.25-0.7. My idea is that no matter how hard you try to transform a multicultural society into the ideal society, it will still never function as well as a monocultural society can. Neither in practice nor theory.

I think that this is very wrong because not all people always fit into the culture they are born into, as much as their parents and friends may try to make them fit. What if you are born gay in a homophobic culture? Will that not lead to problems? The more people get used to accepting other cultures and lifestyles and not forcing their own entirely onto others, the less friction there is.

If all of Ukraine spoke Ukrainian and considered itself as ethnic Ukrainian, it would take a lot more for separatism to even at all be noticeable. Even if Western Ukraine was capitalist, Eastern Ukraine socialist and Russia also socialist, it wouldn't be very likely that separatism would find a foothold in the east. That's because even if they considered themselves socialist or capitalist, they'd still consider themselves as Ukrainian, not Russian. They'd rather want to convert the other half into socialism than join socialist Russia.

And that's why the DDR needed only one party. Was it the ideal state?

As to the bolded part, yes, it was those examples I asked you to provide.

USA is segregated, end of story.

So don't try to whim it all up going on about how a segregated society could possibly still maybe perhaps work...

You argued against multiculturalism = segregation.

I asked you to provide a single case where multiple cultures within a national border has ever NOT led to segregation.

I mentioned big cities such as New York, where it has worked in some neighborhoods and less so in others. It doesn't have to work in every corner of a country to show that it can work.

So far you have failed.

Who made you the judge now and when did I enter a contest?
You have completely failed to get my argument because you always apply your own biased filter to it and expect me to answer your questions with black and white statements when grey is a far more apt response.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

No, it's about German society generally becoming progressively more Turkish as more Turks immigrate looking for work, rather than them creating segregated "Turkish" neighbourhoods in German Cities and being expected to follow all Germany's Laws.

Basically - in an English society it's expected that women can wear pretty, flouncy, dresses in summer and nobody will mind - in Saudi Arabia it's expected they be head-to-toe in black all year. In a multi-cultural society English girls might start wearing the Burkha and Saudi girls might start wearing flouncy dresses, or the dresses might become less flouncy.

In the reality of "multicultural" Britain both groups try to ignore each other, generally find the other distastful and we get periodic complaints about how the other is not civilised, or how someone is being forced to do something because of the other group.

[Viking]

Yes, so that's not really the issue, but you seem to think that multiculturalism is about us inviting the Taliban over and then arguing over who gets to make the laws. I think that is a fundamentally wrong assumption and while there may be fringe nutters who think that is what we should do, I'm pretty certain that most multiculturalists expect the immigrants who come here to respect and abide by our laws. Not every culture or every aspect of a culture has to mean that one favors completely different laws. Political refugees for example don't usually come here because they prefer the laws in their home country. Would you migrate to another country and then tell them all their laws are wrong and that you don't like to be there?

What you are effectively suggesting here, is the creation of second-class citizens. It would be a bit rude of first generetation immigrants to demand changes in the laws in their new country; but for second generation immigrants and further down? It's their country too, and of course they want to have a say in what the laws are like. This doesn't intrinsically have anything to do with the likes of Taliban and extremism; it has to do with disagreement over what is right and wrong, and over what the laws should and should not cover.

I think that this is very wrong because not all people always fit into the culture they are born into, as much as their parents and friends may try to make them fit. What if you are born gay in a homophobic culture? Will that not lead to problems? The more people get used to accepting other cultures and lifestyles and not forcing their own entirely onto others, the less friction there is.

This is a bit what multiculuralism is per default and per definition - and on a much greater scale. No society will be without friction, but you bet that given all other circumstances equal, the multicultural society will have the same level or more of friction than the monocultural one. Most often more.

I think we'll find both the most and the least tolerant people in multicultural areas. Or to put it this way: I think you'll find more cases of hate crime in multicultural areas than monocultural ones.

And that's why the DDR needed only one party. Was it the ideal state?

It "needed" only one party for the same reason North Korea does.

[Husar]

What you are effectively suggesting here, is the creation of second-class citizens.

Yes, why not?

It "needed" only one party for the same reason North Korea does.

North Korea IS the ideal state.

[Fisherking]

North Korea IS the ideal state.

So, you are Putin with a Kim hair cut, huh.

[Greyblades]

Huh, the guy who complained about germany still having to feel guilty about the Nazis is advocating segregation, probably should have seen that coming.

[Viking]

Yes, why not?

Guess what some of the inhabitants in Eastern Ukraine complained about. We've completed a circle, here, I think.

[Kadagar_AV]

Yes, so that's not really the issue, but you seem to think that multiculturalism is about us inviting the Taliban over and then arguing over who gets to make the laws. I think that is a fundamentally wrong assumption and while there may be fringe nutters who think that is what we should do, I'm pretty certain that most multiculturalists expect the immigrants who come here to respect and abide by our laws. Not every culture or every aspect of a culture has to mean that one favors completely different laws. Political refugees for example don't usually come here because they prefer the laws in their home country. Would you migrate to another country and then tell them all their laws are wrong and that you don't like to be there?

The bolded quote might have been the most stupid thing you have posted as of yet.

The very essence of MULTIculturalism is that multiple cultures roam free in a nation.

If the immigrants adhere to existing culture, it's not MULTIculture, is it. Then it's just monoculture-with-some-immigrants-adhering-to-the-culture.

I mentioned big cities such as New York, where it has worked in some neighborhoods and less so in others. It doesn't have to work in every corner of a country to show that it can work.

Oh, you talk about NEW YORK, how silly of me.

Do you talk about this New York?, or is there some other New York I don't know about.

And yes, to prove that multiculturalism can work on a national level, you KIND OF have to exemplify on a national level. Not that I can't shoot your argument down on a city level, of course. I just mean for the discussions sake.

Will you reduce your argument to "believing multiculturalism mayhaps works in limited parts of New York"? For fairness sake?

Who made you the judge now and when did I enter a contest?
You have completely failed to get my argument because you always apply your own biased filter to it and expect me to answer your questions with black and white statements when grey is a far more apt response.

I just meant you have failed in my eyes, as well as probably on an more objective level.

Do know that I am more than well aware of grey scales, you just haven't provided much of anything I'm afraid.

[Husar]

So, you are Putin with a Kim hair cut, huh.

No, I'm just really good at what I do, so far at least two people believe my last post was dead serious.
If you are not joking we already have three!

I just don't feel like switching this thread over to an endless discussion about the fine distinctions between law and culture and to what degree one influences the other, mixed with explaining my previous posts several times over and so on and on...

It's simple, I enjoy living together with people of other cultures and Kadagar, Viking and Gilrandir want to send them back to where they came from so that their governments at home can finally chop their heads off. And people really shouldn't have the right to switch countries for longer than a few weeks or our precious convenient monocultures could get disturbed. Thankfully, the disturbing wrong-cultured Crimeans have already been taken back by their home culture, once Putin has annexed Eastern Ukraine, all our monoculturalists should be happy. I told you right from the start that Putin knows what he is doing, why does noone ever believe me?.....Except when I'm trolling....

[Kadagar_AV]

No, I'm just really good at what I do, so far at least two people believe my last post was dead serious.
If you are not joking we already have three!

I just don't feel like switching this thread over to an endless discussion about the fine distinctions between law and culture and to what degree one influences the other, mixed with explaining my previous posts several times over and so on and on...

It's simple, I enjoy living together with people of other cultures and Kadagar, Viking and Gilrandir want to send them back to where they came from so that their governments at home can finally chop their heads off. And people really shouldn't have the right to switch countries for longer than a few weeks or our precious convenient monocultures could get disturbed. Thankfully, the disturbing wrong-cultured Crimeans have already been taken back by their home culture, once Putin has annexed Eastern Ukraine, all our monoculturalists should be happy. I told you right from the start that Putin knows what he is doing, why does noone ever believe me?.....Except when I'm trolling....

The bolded part is just offensive.

1/20 of Swedish immigrants are refugees. Have I ever said I wanted to send them back to get their heads chopped? Seriously?

It's the social-wellfare-travelers-wanting-to-impose-their-failed-culture-on-Sweden I object to.

Also, you fail at sarcastic posts, why do you even keep trying? It's written form and you are German. That's two big no-no when it comes to that.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I often get the sense that we'd all think Husar was riotously funny if we were German.

But I also think he should give up because we're obviously a slower form of comedically challenged life and he just confuses us.

[Pannonian]

No, it's about German society generally becoming progressively more Turkish as more Turks immigrate looking for work, rather than them creating segregated "Turkish" neighbourhoods in German Cities and being expected to follow all Germany's Laws.

Basically - in an English society it's expected that women can wear pretty, flouncy, dresses in summer and nobody will mind - in Saudi Arabia it's expected they be head-to-toe in black all year. In a multi-cultural society English girls might start wearing the Burkha and Saudi girls might start wearing flouncy dresses, or the dresses might become less flouncy.

In the reality of "multicultural" Britain both groups try to ignore each other, generally find the other distastful and we get periodic complaints about how the other is not civilised, or how someone is being forced to do something because of the other group.

That's not my experience in what's probably the most multicultural city in the world. People keep to themselves anyway, whether they're from different cultures or not, but when they interact, they do so in a way characteristic of the city rather than the culture. Whatever culture you want to categorise them into, they're all Londoners, which is a common experience that transcends everything else.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Back on the topic of Ukraine.
http://www.buzzfeed.com/maxseddon/do...my-hit-america

Obviously this just confirms my suspicions that you are all paid shills for respective governments, that you are all aware of each other, and proceed to just generate inane statements for others to reply equally inanely so you all can fill your quota for the day.

[Kadagar_AV]

That's not my experience in what's probably the most multicultural city in the world. People keep to themselves anyway, whether they're from different cultures or not, but when they interact, they do so in a way characteristic of the city rather than the culture. Whatever culture you want to categorise them into, they're all Londoners, which is a common experience that transcends everything else.

I call BS.

Source?

Or are we suddenly discussing ones perceived experience here, facts notwithstanding?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

That's not my experience in what's probably the most multicultural city in the world. People keep to themselves anyway, whether they're from different cultures or not, but when they interact, they do so in a way characteristic of the city rather than the culture. Whatever culture you want to categorise them into, they're all Londoners, which is a common experience that transcends everything else.

I live in a smaller city with a march larger white population - in Devon all outsiders, be they white Saxons or otherwise are foreign - it's just obvious BEFORE you open you mouth if you're not white.

Even so, you see the Muslim women almost scurry about, avoiding the white men. It's depressing, and that alone makes me wish it was more like when I was a child and we'd never even see people from London, let alone Muslims.

[Gilrandir]

Why? I know all kinds of people who themselves or their parents have foreign roots, my father is dutch and does not have the german nationality to this day (although I never feel like a person with a migration background because, let's face it, I grew up here and the cultural differences are negligible anyway, even the language). Why should I not want all these people to be here? Would I somehow be happier if all my friends were pure Germans? I'll spare you the obvious comparison.

Somehow the Ukrainan proverb which can be rendered as "You are most useful where you are born" chimes with my worldview. For the same reason my support of Ukrainian football club teams on international arena is lukewarm, while I give my full energy to supporting national team. Whatever people here may claim, our perceiving the world and our place in it is determined by stereotypes to a great degree. By stereotypes I mean our expectations of how men/women should behave, what presidents may/may not do, what you may/may not speak about with your neighbors etc. The basic opposition social stereotypes are grounded on is "us vs them" ("ours vs theirs", "related vs alien"). One always evaluates "us" as positive or neutral and "them" as neutral or negative. It is hard to make one feel proud of neutral or negative, of "them" (not "us"). So I don't see any reason why I should cheer till I get hoarse supporting, say, Shakhtar if it mostly consists of Brazilian, Croatian, Romanian and so on players. What is their relation to Ukraine? Usually they don't speak any of the vernaculars of my country, know practically nothing of its culture and traditions and don't conceal their desire to leave it as soon as they are invited somewhere else. They came here to make money - why should I feel proud when they win or feel depressed when they lose? I miss the 1970s, when you could be sure that Ajax was a Dutch team, Bayern - German and Dynamo Kyiv - Ukrainian.

“Attack helicopters are used against armed terrorists who are a mixture of alien mercenaries” So, the expelled President was wrong. He should have qualified the movement in Kiev as terrorism them sent the attack helicopters. Then, you emphases on being a linguist: Alien is quite a strong word, not foreigner, no, alien… Brrr, I almost see their babies jumping at the face of the population.

If Maidan consisted of alien mercenaries then Yanukovych could have been justified.
"Alien" in this context means "those who have nothing to do with Donbas and its people". They come to make money so they don't care what will happen to the place where they fight. They loot supermarkets, kidnap people demanding ransom, set fire to the ice hockey arena, shell neighborhoods. Their interests are alien to those of the locals and the latter are starting to realize that.

You have a population in your country rioting and you don’t want to know why…

I know why and by now it is not the population but aliens, I thought I explained it.

“I don't like Ukrainians to migrate elsewhere and I don't like foreigners to root in Ukraine. Tourism is Ok but no migration”. Yeah, they are “alien”. Extreme nationalists, you said…

Yes, and Ukrainians are alien elsewhere.

“As for the rumors, the head of a local Communist party organization in a Lugansk town (don't remember the name) moonlights the head of a band of terrorists who captured all administrative buildings there. The headquarters of Communist party in another town is at the same time the headquarters of "rioters"” Great, democracy is in move with this. 2 persons are perhaps in a separatist movement and they perhaps belong to one party (and the fact they use a building of this party is surely a proof, like a hat on a man) and it is o.k. to ban the party.

I just gave two examples, they are much more numerous. But you again choose to see what you like: in the same post I said that I'm against banning any party.

And I have noted an interesting thing: you react to my posts only and the discussion which is going on among other forumers is of no interest to you. You seem to get your kicks communicating with me. I thought you said good-bye to the thread. In Ukraine they say that it is a typical English departure - to leave without saying good-bye. So can we say that yours is the case of a typical French departute - to say good-bye but never leave?

And that's why Ukraine is not a good example for the failures of multiculturalism, because no matter how close two cultures are, if people want to find a problem or a difference, they will find one and if they don't, they won't.

Most Ukrainians don't want to, moreover even after all we've been through (and are still being through) they don't consider Russians our enemies putting all the blame on Putin.

My idea is something like that in a monocultural society, internal friction lies between 0.05-0.3 - while in a multicultural society, it's between 0.25-0.7.

You didn't mention valor, charge, defense and morale.

once Putin has annexed Eastern Ukraine, all our monoculturalists should be happy.

I have said that eastern Ukraine does not have a different culture from the rest of the country so annexing it will make Russia more multicultural than now - again I won't be happy.

[Viking]

at least two people believe my last post was dead serious.

They did?

It's simple, I enjoy living together with people of other cultures and Kadagar, Viking and Gilrandir want to send them back to where they came from so that their governments at home can finally chop their heads off. And people really shouldn't have the right to switch countries for longer than a few weeks or our precious convenient monocultures could get disturbed. Thankfully, the disturbing wrong-cultured Crimeans have already been taken back by their home culture, once Putin has annexed Eastern Ukraine, all our monoculturalists should be happy. I told you right from the start that Putin knows what he is doing, why does noone ever believe me?.....Except when I'm trolling....

If you want to oversimplify things, fine. View it as sitting in a boat and picking up lots of people floating in the sea, all the way to the point where your ship capsizes, leaving everybody screwed.

If it takes another thread to make you see the errors of your ways when it comes to multiculturalism, let's start one.

[Gilrandir]

And people really shouldn't have the right to switch countries for longer than a few weeks or our precious convenient monocultures could get disturbed.

Migration resulting in multiculturalism is but a single thread in the great tapestry of globalization. I don't like the latter. Why should I be afraid of diseases which start a thousand miles away? Why should the economy of my country suffer if something is wrong with dollar?
The Ukrainian crisis exposed another aspect of it: after WWII migration from Russia to Crimea started resulting in turning it into a predominantly Russian-populated area. 70 years later Putin speaks of protecting Russians and Russian-speakers and annexes Crimea. In vain did international missions try to persuade him that the rights of Russian-speakers were not infringed upon. The pretext is always there.
It is a dangerous precedent: exporting people to later be worried about their rights and begin capturing territories they inhabit.

[Brenus]

“You seem to get your kicks communicating with me” Yeap. Like it. See below.

“they don't consider Russians our enemies putting all the blame on Putin.” Your answer: “You seem to have had a tour around Russian-speaking South-East, canvassed their opinion and formed yours”

[Fisherking]

No, I'm just really good at what I do, so far at least two people believe my last post was dead serious.
If you are not joking we already have three!

No, if you thought I was serious you are losing your touch and I know you well enough not to take much of what you say very seriously at all.

[Husar]

I have said that eastern Ukraine does not have a different culture from the rest of the country so annexing it will make Russia more multicultural than now - again I won't be happy.

I don't care, Viking said it's a perfect example for the problems of multiculturalism, you and Viking are both "them", if you two can't even agree on this, it just shows how unorganized "they" are. If you say Ukraine wasn't multicultural then why did you not agree that it was a bad example for the failures of multiculturalism?

If you want to oversimplify things, fine. View it as sitting in a boat and picking up lots of people floating in the sea, all the way to the point where your ship capsizes, leaving everybody screwed.

If it takes another thread to make you see the errors of your ways when it comes to multiculturalism, let's start one.

Not necessary.
I did make a mistake somewhere actually but I'm not sure whether anyone noticed and the definitions seem to differ a bit depending on who you ask anyway. What's more important is that you and Gilrandir seem to differe on whether Ukraine was a multicultural country. And I'd actually agree more with Gilrandir on that it was not.

No, if you thought I was serious you are losing your touch and I know you well enough not to take much of what you say very seriously at all.

I've never had any touch, I'm constantly high by nature. And I didn't think you took me entirely seriously.
Anyway, would you classify Ukraine as multicultural because of the russian-ukrainian differences?

[Viking]

Not necessary.
I did make a mistake somewhere actually but I'm not sure whether anyone noticed and the definitions seem to differ a bit depending on who you ask anyway. What's more important is that you and Gilrandir seem to differe on whether Ukraine was a multicultural country. And I'd actually agree more with Gilrandir on that it was not.

There is a spectrum here, with the multicultural society on one end, and the monocultural society on the other. This spectrum also has several sub-spectrums, one of which is language. So, I'd say that we can plot Ukraine in e.g. the following way:

multicultural society <-- -5 -4 -3 .. 0 1 2 4 (Ukraine) 5 --> monocultural society

multilingual society <-- -5 ... 1 (Ukraine) .. 5 --> monolingual society

So in one facet of multculturalism, I'll claim that Ukraine scores relatively high, namely language. But in other facets, not so much. So over all, I will not say that Ukraine is multicultural. Yet there is this one facet of multuculturalism where it does score relatively high, and this facet is causing some trouble and tension.

[Kadagar_AV]

There is a spectrum here, with the multicultural society on one end, and the monocultural society on the other. This spectrum also has several sub-spectrums, one of which is language. So, I'd say that we can plot Ukraine in e.g. the following way:

multicultural society <-- -5 -4 -3 .. 0 1 2 4 (Ukraine) 5 --> monocultural society

multilingual society <-- -5 ... 1 (Ukraine) .. 5 --> monolingual society

So in one facet of multculturalism, I'll claim that Ukraine scores relatively high, namely language. But in other facets, not so much. So over all, I will not say that Ukraine is multicultural. Yet there is this one facet of multuculturalism where it does score relatively high, and this facet is causing some trouble and tension.

Posts like these are the reason I keep coming back.

Absolutely brilliant Viking

[Pannonian]

I call BS.

Source?

Or are we suddenly discussing ones perceived experience here, facts notwithstanding?

Kad, what is your experience of living in a multicultural society? Have you read about it on the internets?

- - - Updated - - -

I call BS.

Source?

Or are we suddenly discussing ones perceived experience here, facts notwithstanding?

Kad, what is your experience of living in a multicultural society? Have you read about it on the internets?