Re: If your child is not vaccinated, they should be barred from attending public scho
Most people don't own their property. Real Estate is really only a long term lease. Just see what happens when you don't pay your mortgage or a wider road needs to be put through your property or a miner finds valuables beneath the topsoil.Originally Posted by Fisherking
Our genes maybe in the basement but it does not stop us chosing our point of view from the top.
Pape for global overlord!!
Re: If your child is not vaccinated, they should be barred from attending public scho
Yes, government and you. Just how is this supposed to be a good thing?
Education: that which reveals to the wise,
and conceals from the stupid,
the vast limits of their knowledge.
Mark Twain
Re: If your child is not vaccinated, they should be barred from attending public scho
Becuase the alternative is worse? Seriously rage against the government all you want, they're still the closest thing in america to an entity that's both out to defend your interests and powerful enough to be successful. The government wants to evict you they at least give lipservice to rights and tries to pay you off, a coporation would just kick you out.
Last edited by Greyblades; 07-08-2014 at 09:09.
Being better than the worst does not inherently make you good. But being better than the rest lets you brag.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Re: If your child is not vaccinated, they should be barred from attending public scho
Government is the collective you.
Government is the collective allowing the I to do more. Educate, build infrastructure, protect and serve. Ideally the government is a positive force multiplier for its citizens.
Corporations supposedly are only there to profit their shareholders. If that is their only mandate then they do need to have limits placed on them by the collective you.
Democracy/Republicanism are currently the best fit. Got a better system I'm all ears.
Our genes maybe in the basement but it does not stop us chosing our point of view from the top.
Pape for global overlord!!
Re: If your child is not vaccinated, they should be barred from attending public scho
Brilliant! Who gave your property to a corporation? Was it the government and the twisting of laws? Who created corporations and gave them rights? What protects them or gives the supremacy over you?
The state has a monopoly on violence and coercion.
Most of you are narrowly focused on this one thing and believe it will go no further and never think of unintended consequence. You willingly sacrifice your rights and the rights of others for a good cause and never suspect that it could ever be used to harm you.
I am sure you are bored by all this because you have heard it all before. I will just bore you a bit more with a couple of quotes.
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master.
George Washington
"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men. And remember, where you have a concentration of power in a few hands, all too frequently men with the mentality of gangsters get control. History has proven that."
Lord Acton
Education: that which reveals to the wise,
and conceals from the stupid,
the vast limits of their knowledge.
Mark Twain
Re: If your child is not vaccinated, they should be barred from attending public scho
Are you so sure?
"The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman
"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken
Re: If your child is not vaccinated, they should be barred from attending public scho
Firstly, dont ignore papewaio just because you find my posts easier to refute.
Secondly I have no idea what you are talking about with giving property to a corporation, instead lets go to your earlier post:
If it was proved that if I dont people will die, and that by giving up property you mean having to put up a fire alarm... the equivilence isn't exactly air tight is what I'm saying.What if I demand the right to your property? I can show a plan by which I can make better use of it and provide more benefit to the community. Should that entitle me to it? It is all for the betterment of the group you understand.
In most nations the rights to self defense you have the right to manhandle, detain or even kill those who's actions pose an clear immediate risk of maiming or even killing yourself or another person. In this case thier action is putting any infants they come in contact with at risk of dying a most horrible death, if we are going by the literal interpritation of the law injecting them with a vaccine is the least I have the right to do.There is not right to be free of risks. This is what the public is demanding. There is also no right to force another to do your will.
Ok, I can get behind this sentiment, academically at least. Only once again Imust express my furtstration that while the patriot act/the NSA making your rights as worthless as the paper they're written on, americans are making a stand for the right to refuse measle vaccines.The taking of rights are always cited for a good reason. But once taken government sees no reason to limit what it can do.
As it has been said over and over again on this thread, if vaccines arent adopted by 100% of the population thier effects will be eventually be undone by mutation amoung the infected minority, and in the mean time the continued existance of the viruses will steadly kill those too young for vaccinations. It has to be 100% and has been shown multiple times there are enough crazies in the world that would refuse whatever is said or done. ergoThere are enough stupid people in the world that there is literaly no other option save for force.However, the issue is reason for concern which require compromise. There must be a balance and alternatives to forced compliance.
In the age of Private Millitary Companies and scientology I am inclined to disagree: companies can do those too and the only thing keeping them from doing it uninhibited is the state.The state has a monopoly on violence and coercion.
Last edited by Greyblades; 07-08-2014 at 16:00.
Being better than the worst does not inherently make you good. But being better than the rest lets you brag.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Re: If your child is not vaccinated, they should be barred from attending public scho
Pointless really. No one is going to change the mind of someone who thinks they are right.
This applies equally to both parties.
I see both sides of the issue. The desire for security overcomes you and you submit to the arguments of the state. While the other side seeks to maintain exception for their own reasons.
I simply oppose the use of coercion and ultimately, violence to compel other to my will.
Education: that which reveals to the wise,
and conceals from the stupid,
the vast limits of their knowledge.
Mark Twain
Re: If your child is not vaccinated, they should be barred from attending public scho
Let's go with a car analogy here:
You have the right to drink alcohol beverages, you cannot drive on public roads while doing so as you become a threat to others. You have the right to refuse vaccines for your children, why should you be allowed to endanger other children in a public school setting?
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"Why do you hate the extremely limited Spartan version of freedom?" - Lemur
Re: If your child is not vaccinated, they should be barred from attending public scho
When one sides argument is bonkers, there is no middle ground.
They have no reason for their actions, and so we can safely ignore them. This in no way turns into a 'slippery slope' and starts affecting situations where there are real arguments.
I'd say the arguments against compulsory education are far stronger than anti-vaxxers - but we cheerfully ignore those and force their kids to school.
Last edited by HoreTore; 07-08-2014 at 16:55.
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
Re: If your child is not vaccinated, they should be barred from attending public scho
My objection is ethical but you all seem to see the issue as only religious retards trying to avoid it.
Other have their own reasons not to comply.
http://www.nvic.org/nvic-vaccine-new...ccination.aspx
Education: that which reveals to the wise,
and conceals from the stupid,
the vast limits of their knowledge.
Mark Twain
Re: If your child is not vaccinated, they should be barred from attending public scho
I am not mainly speaking of people refusing on religious grounds, I am mainly speaking of those idiots you linked to. They have no arguments of merit, and can be safely ignored as the loonies they are.
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
Re: If your child is not vaccinated, they should be barred from attending public scho
Whether their fears are real or imagined makes no fundamental difference. Parents in the US are alarmed at the unexplained rise in autism. They feel the risk to their children is greater than the benefits offered by the vaccines. Science has not explained the rise and there is a seeming coloration between certain vaccines and the malady.
If you don’t understand the position, especially when they have a child with it, then you have no understanding of human nature, and obviously no children of your own.
Education: that which reveals to the wise,
and conceals from the stupid,
the vast limits of their knowledge.
Mark Twain
Re: If your child is not vaccinated, they should be barred from attending public scho
It does when balance needs to be struck between the imagined and disproven on the one hand, and the proven and demonstrably disastrous on the other...
Except that there isn't.Parents in the US are alarmed at the unexplained rise in autism. They feel the risk to their children is greater than the benefits offered by the vaccines. Science has not explained the rise and there is a seeming coloration between certain vaccines and the malady.
Actually that very same argument applies to denying the unvaccinated access to public space. We've gone full circle and are back to Lemur's original thread about this.If you don’t understand the position, especially when they have a child with it, then you have no understanding of human nature, and obviously no children of your own.
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Re: If your child is not vaccinated, they should be barred from attending public scho
These are the kind of non-arguments we can safely ignore.
The link between autism and vaccination is non-existent, and any parent who believes so deserves a slap in the face and a vaccine shot in their kids. It is precisely because of idiotic arguments like these that I support mandatory vaccination of children.
Children should not be forced to face certain danger because of their parents irrational fears over non-existent threats.
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
Re: If your child is not vaccinated, they should be barred from attending public scho
I thought the link to increased autism was likely to be increased age of parenthood, less children and more diagnosis.
Now that is a hypothesis and not a fact and if I was to make life or death decisions based on an untested idea then that would be wrong.
Not all ideas have equal merit. Nor do all ways of life have equal outcomes.
Our genes maybe in the basement but it does not stop us chosing our point of view from the top.
Pape for global overlord!!
Re: If your child is not vaccinated, they should be barred from attending public scho
It is not that simple and it is not proven. When the top agencies say “there’s probably no relationship between autism and vaccines”. That does not rise to the level of proof. There are also many other side effects that are known.
The MMR vaccine has been mostly cleared but there is also an issue with the chemical thimeroal which is a form of mercury suspected of causing autism. It has been removed from most but not all vaccines.
Researched will not unequivocally say there is no link, and that is understandable. Scientific method proceeds by constantly modifying theories rather than accumulating “proofs”. But some in the public will not see it that way.
That is all essentially true. But the part I still don’t agree with is that you would lock these people up and take their children as wards of the state because they don’t see things in the same light as you.
To me that seems terribly draconian without exhausting all other alternatives.
Last edited by Fisherking; 07-09-2014 at 08:42.
Education: that which reveals to the wise,
and conceals from the stupid,
the vast limits of their knowledge.
Mark Twain
Re: If your child is not vaccinated, they should be barred from attending public scho
No I would simple exclude unvaccinated children from state run schools.
They can be home schooled, or form a user pays unvaccinated school.
Our genes maybe in the basement but it does not stop us chosing our point of view from the top.
Pape for global overlord!!
Re: If your child is not vaccinated, they should be barred from attending public scho
Wrong.
It is that simple, and it is proven. There has never been found any link whatsoever between autism and vaccines, that was a complete lie from Andrew Wakefield.
There are known side effects to vaccines, but thy are minor and irrelevant. You might end up with a fever or a headache. An insignificant price to pay for something that will save your life. The MMR vaccine gives a serious allergic reaction in 1 of 1.000.000 injections. Contrast that with measles death rate of 2 in 1000.
The HPV vaccine has no side effects worse than a headache.
As I said at the start of this thread, it is a simple matter of handing custody temporarily to the state, inject the kids, then hand them back to the parents. Noone gets hurt and the child gets vaccinated.
Last edited by HoreTore; 07-09-2014 at 12:54.
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
Re: If your child is not vaccinated, they should be barred from attending public scho
It wasn't just a lie - that understates it too much - it was Fraud.
Wakefield was attempting to bring down the combined Vaccine so he could sell a single vaccine which he had just patented (ie instead of one jab the kids would get 3 and Wakefield would profit from it).
This was all exposed decades ago - Wakefield was disbarred and it should have ended there - the fact that it is still is brought up shows just how much damage he did... all in the name of "profit"...
Re: If your child is not vaccinated, they should be barred from attending public scho
Well common sense would tell you that reducing the exposure of this potentially autism triggering chemical would at least produce a reduction in autism rates. And yet, we still seem to be in the midst of the autism "epidemic". Maybe chemistry is more complicated than mercury = bad.
Re: If your child is not vaccinated, they should be barred from attending public scho
I also believe the government should have a standard education credit that goes with each child and is applied regardless of school (public/private/independent/home).
Extra credits should be handled for poverty cases, but these should have two clauses.
(I) If you are living below the poverty line and are claiming government assistance then you would have to prove that your kids education is superior and that the child's future isn't being squandered. No proof required if you aren't asking for assistance, but I would suggest that community support such as a nurse checking the kids health at a minimum.
(II) Education aim is to create independent adults. Indoctrination to violent/cult mindsets should be minimized and certainly should not be government subsidized.
Our genes maybe in the basement but it does not stop us chosing our point of view from the top.
Pape for global overlord!!
Re: If your child is not vaccinated, they should be barred from attending public scho
I have to admit, I saw this the other day, and it clearly sends out the wrong message.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
It boils down to "Lets give those idiots a lethal an anti-'anti-vaccine' injection! Hurrah! One less idiot in the world". The moral of their story ends up being "They are idiots, so label something as a vaccine which is intended to kill them" ... I just find the whole idea preposterous and doesn't help in the slightest, considering the criticism is the concerns that a vaccine would do this to them.
Days since the Apocalypse began
"We are living in space-age times but there's too many of us thinking with stone-age minds" | How to spot a Humanist
"Men of Quality do not fear Equality." | "Belief doesn't change facts. Facts, if you are reasonable, should change your beliefs."
Re: If your child is not vaccinated, they should be barred from attending public scho
Now this comic is done better. It takes viewpoints of individual responsibility and show how it can be horribly abused.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Days since the Apocalypse began
"We are living in space-age times but there's too many of us thinking with stone-age minds" | How to spot a Humanist
"Men of Quality do not fear Equality." | "Belief doesn't change facts. Facts, if you are reasonable, should change your beliefs."
Re: If your child is not vaccinated, they should be barred from attending public scho
Science!? Who cares!
Its all about culture baby!
http://arstechnica.com/science/2014/...-ill-informed/
Ja-mata TosaInu
Re: If your child is not vaccinated, they should be barred from attending public scho
Ninja'd me. Just read the article.
Our genes maybe in the basement but it does not stop us chosing our point of view from the top.
Pape for global overlord!!
Re: If your child is not vaccinated, they should be barred from attending public scho
I've read only this last page since my last visit to the thread.
Hey autism paranoiacs: autism is congenital. Christ.
Vitiate Man.
History repeats the old conceits
The glib replies, the same defeats
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Re: If your child is not vaccinated, they should be barred from attending public scho
Settled science backed up by data.
Well, they lied.
http://www.translationalneurodegener...content/3/1/16
Last edited by Fisherking; 08-25-2014 at 15:58.
Education: that which reveals to the wise,
and conceals from the stupid,
the vast limits of their knowledge.
Mark Twain
Re: If your child is not vaccinated, they should be barred from attending public scho
They did not lie.
Your first link is about public knowledge. Why you believe science is affected by public knowledge is beyond me. Irrelevant article.
The second is a failed attempt to show that MMR-vaccines cause autism. It has been conclusively proven that it does not. Second link is also irrelevant.
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
Re: If your child is not vaccinated, they should be barred from attending public scho
The second link is actually far more specific, as the research itself says, it doesn't in the general population, but it does in a subset of the 'Afro-American' population show signs when only done at the earliest age bracket. But! There is the whole 'correlation versus causation' as the 'Afro-American' population has been well documented for misapplied for learning difficulties the highest numbers undiagnosed and being misdiagnosed due to racist views.
What is interesting is that the second link is suggestion neural degeneration in this subset, which is surprising as I haven't actually heard of a cases like this existing before how unexplained degeneration causes autism. Google is only showing this in the same journal. I am only more familiar with Multiple sclerosis, ASL, Strokes and others.
The reasons for this showing could be done to experimental factors as well, but the hypothesis that age has a factor as a whole was proven to be null, they simply found what seems to be an exception to the rule. The report is this year, and I do not know the reliability of the journal in question or the actual scientific attention it has received. But all it does is open the door for exploration, it doesn't actually counter current science.
But I definitely agree that posting the first link of "science is part of a cultural warfare" not really to say anything.
Last edited by Beskar; 08-25-2014 at 15:55.
Days since the Apocalypse began
"We are living in space-age times but there's too many of us thinking with stone-age minds" | How to spot a Humanist
"Men of Quality do not fear Equality." | "Belief doesn't change facts. Facts, if you are reasonable, should change your beliefs."
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