Ukraine Thread

[Viking]

the Ukrainian army is still reluctant to do anything major, forcing Kiev to rely on ultranationalist paramilitary groups.

I don't see how this is correct. AFAIK, the regular troops (artillery) was instrumental in the taking of Sloviansk. It was also regular troops that decisively defeated the separatists at Donetsk Airport at the start of the insurgency, and who has been holding it ever since (with some support). It was also regular troops that were close to cutting off the separatists' supply lines from Russia when they came under heavy and sustained artillery fire and withdrew.

[Sarmatian]

From what I know I would say that allegiance of people didn't change because of that fact. Those who were pro-Russain don't consider current Ukrainian government as "their government" (and with anti-Ukrainian propaganda they are not likely to), so they stayed pro-Russian getting one more reason to hate Ukraine, others realize that the payments will be renewed when/if the territories are won back. After all this is the strategy to win back the lost lands - to show that elsewhere the life is better, no?

I believe the state has an obligation to its citizens. Furthermore, it encourages the local authorities to set up their own system and encourages all people living there to try to work within that system if they don't want their families to starve/freeze, and in the end, the entire thing moves closer to the point of no return.

Winning hearts and minds is where this conflict could be decided.

How do you know the bald? The source please.
From what I know the lack of offensive on the part of Ukrainian armed forced (both regular and others) is partly explained by the inclination of the government to stick to Minsk agreements, partly by the inadequate weapons and troops quantity to do that (according to the war rules, if you want to start an offensive you are to have at least four times more troops on a theater; as for the kind of artillery and armored vehicles that Ukraine possesses, they are largely old decrepit things that demand constant repair; both men and arms domination Ukraine had had in summer was lost after August 24, when Russia intervened directly and since that time has been pumping its "help" across the border) and partly (or perhaps primarily) by the fear that the moment we start an offensive Russia will say that Ukraine has forfeited the signed agreements and will invade openly.

From the reports and news I've read over the last several months. Involvement of the actual army has been pretty minimal and small scale.
That has been pretty consistent from the start and I haven't noticed major changes after Minsk agreement.

You still believe the stories of Ukrainian atrocities against civilians (performed by "ultranationalists") in the areas controlled by Ukraine.

I do believe they have been rather indiscriminate with their targets, yes, and that, in my opinion has a lot to do with the previous paragraph - too little involvement of the actual army and too much involvement of the National Guard (which seems to be a poor attempt to hastily legalize paramilitary groups like the Azov brigade). I also think they are significantly worse than the Rebels in that regard, even though the Rebels have hardly been angels so far.

I don't see how this is correct. AFAIK, the regular troops (artillery) was instrumental in the taking of Sloviansk. It was also regular troops that decisively defeated the separatists at Donetsk Airport at the start of the insurgency, and who has been holding it ever since (with some support). It was also regular troops that were close to cutting off the separatists' supply lines from Russia when they came under heavy and sustained artillery fire and withdrew.

I didn't say no involvement, I said little involvement. Western media tend not to draw a distinction between the actual Ukrainian army and recently formed National Guard.

[Viking]

I didn't say no involvement, I said little involvement. Western media tend not to draw a distinction between the actual Ukrainian army and recently formed National Guard.

What I just listed is some most of the serious involvement on Ukrainian side thus far in the conflict. I don't see how much more the Ukrainian army could have done.

In most of the battles, the separatists are located inside cities and towns. There are only two options then: raze the city to the ground or go in slowly.

[Sarmatian]

What I just listed is some most of the serious involvement on Ukrainian side thus far in the conflict. I don't see how much more the Ukrainian army could have done.

In most of the battles, the separatists are located inside cities and towns. There are only two options then: raze the city to the ground or go in slowly.

As I've said, western media tend not to make distinction between the two. In taking of Slavyansk, both army and the National Guard were present. What was the exact ratio, I don't know.

Ukraine can field a rather large with reserves deployed. The fact that they had to resurrect National Guard and that National Guard was involved in pretty much all skirmishes/battles tells me that Kiev doesn't trust the army so much (NG is controlled by the Ministry of Interior Affairs)

[Kadagar_AV]

What date is it? What is Putin's political allegiance?

[Sarmatian]

What date is it? What is Putin's political allegiance?

It is Novmembeber 25th annd Validamiridonenko Putiniatin is still a fascimile.

[a completely inoffensive name]

It is Novmembeber 25th annd Validamiridonenko Putiniatin is still a fascimile.

Well, you at least got the date correct.

[Gilrandir]

The fact that they had to resurrect National Guard and that National Guard was involved in pretty much all skirmishes/battles tells me that Kiev doesn't trust the army so much (NG is controlled by the Ministry of Interior Affairs)

1. I don't know what you mean by "resurrection", I repeat: National Guard was called Internal Troops until it was renamed. In fact it is the same Berkut that was on Maidan in winter. Sometimes there were tensions reported between ex-Berkuts and newly recruited volunteers in training camps but once they were on the battle field the tensions were forgotten.
2. Since National Guard is in fact spetznaz and it is more fit for military actions than much neglected, underfinanced and often badly trained army, it is natural that it bears the brunt of fighting. Yet there are some elite army detachments (like paratroopers or marines) which are up to the task, so they are in the thick of fighting as well (for example, in Donetsk airport, Debaltseve and others). There is no trust distinction as you would like to find between different kinds of troops.

It is Novmembeber 25th annd Validamiridonenko Putiniatin is still a fascimile.

His first name in your interpretation sounds like a Ukrainian last name. Perhaps he is a Ukrainian nazi as well?

[Gilrandir]

I believe the state has an obligation to its citizens.

Unless those citizens live in the (temporary) occupied territories. Even so the Ukrainian government will still keep those territories supplied with gas and electricity expecting no payment for it. This is as much as it can do for the time being.

Winning hearts and minds is where this conflict could be decided.

Not possible while Russian media keep poisoning those hearts and minds. And minds must tell their owners that Ukraine can only finance territories it controls.

I do believe they have been rather indiscriminate with their targets, yes, and that, in my opinion has a lot to do with the previous paragraph - too little involvement of the actual army and too much involvement of the National Guard (which seems to be a poor attempt to hastily legalize paramilitary groups like the Azov brigade). I also think they are significantly worse than the Rebels in that regard, even though the Rebels have hardly been angels so far.

Your mind has been poisoned by Russian propaganda as well, like the stories I cited. National Guard was a transformation of Internal Troops done in March, long before any fighting broke in Donbas. And turning Azov into a brigade of National Guard happenned after several months of fighting. Do you call it hasty? Even before that ALL volunteer battallions functioned with the legal framework of either Ministry of Defense or National Guard.