CIA: Waterboarding used on 3 suspects

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I don't believe torture actually works, but it's a moral dillema worthy of consideration. I am not convinced that it's always wrong. I can totally see how it can be the lesser of two evils sometimes.

This is internally illogical.

If it is not more efficacious on some level -- then it should not be done as the costs, moral and physical, are known to be higher. Would you spend 5 Euros for an Ice-Cream that you could purchase across the street for 3.50 Euros?

Unless it is demonstrably better at extracting information than are other methods -- and the best that can be said is the it works equally well, not better -- than how can it be rational to endure the greater moral cost to yourself and your personnel (ignore the victim as a presumed "bad guy" if you wish)?

And if you and/or your personnel would NOT endure a greater moral cost in implementing "enhanced interrogation methods," than you would be PRECISELY the kinds of persons who should not be entrusted with that power as you would both enjoy it too much (and therefore do it improperly and denigrate the information validity) and be inclined to make it normal practice.

I bear no love for the persons who engineered the butchery of 9-11-01 or who believe that beheading a journalist somehow constitutes valid political action.

However, as R.G.H. Siu once wrote, "cruelty is the tantrum of frustrated power." Throwing tantrums is not adult behavior.

[Husar]

Weren't several of the tortured people innocent?

[Fragony]

This is internally illogica

Not if you are as cynical as I am, cynism gots a logic of it's own. I don't believe in our goodness, men is wolf to men, decency is an illusion.

If you were a character in The Walking Dead, what type of character would you be?

(I am really not that cyninal, just making a case)

[Kadagar_AV]

Not if you are as cynical as I am, cynism gots a logic of it's own. I don't believe in our goodness, men is wolf to men, decency is an illusion.

If you were a character in The Walking Dead, what type of character would you be?

(I am really not that cyninal, just making a case)

Sorry Frags, being cynical just don't cut it as a defense for the ideas you put forth.

You are defending what is the most vile thing a human can do to another...

You seriously have to make an EXTREMELY good case for why it would be needed to torture someone... All you have contributed with is Hollywood fantasies.

Shame on you.

[Fragony]

Convince me why it's always wrong without it just being wrong taken as a given. The Dutch resistance tortured nazi's to get info for the allies. Probably saved a lot of lives. Your whole argument is that it is unacceptable, but you never say why; it's unaccetable, basta. Need a little bit more to chew on.

[Papewaio]

There are worse things then terrorism, police states are one of those.

Torture by the state is many steps worse then a police state.

[Fragony]

Easy way out, I am not pleading for that, I just say that there are scenarios where I can be comfortable with someone being tortured. You on the other hand would be comfortable with the comfortable bliss that is the moral higher ground, knowing that thousands could die, but at least you are morally superior? That's not being moral, that is being narcist, inherently egocentric to not do what should be done when it's the only option left, no matter how much you would hate doing it.

[Papewaio]

Easy way out, I am not pleading for that, I just say that there are scenarios where I can be comfortable with someone being tortured. You on the other hand would be comfortable with the comfortable bliss that is the moral higher ground, knowing that thousands could die, but at least you are morally superior? That's not being moral, that is being narcist, inherently egocentric to not do what should be done when it's the only option left, no matter how much you would hate doing it.

Torture outside of TV and movies is notoriously volatile (short life span of useful information if any), and is inaccurate. Might as well stick to burning witches at stakes for all the benefit and justice it achieves.

Standard police work has been shown to be far as or more effective then torture as far as information gathering is concerned. Police work also beats torture hands down for hearts and minds. So police work not only resolves the issue more effectively it doesn't create a new or larger generation of fanatics.

The idea of torture to gain freedom is a dumb tautology. It is counter productive and ineffective. It also relies on the premise that the person somehow has ongoing useful operational knowledge when most terrorist groups act in semi independent cells. It just lowers us to their level and like most laws and law enforcement techniques it tends to bleed out into the wider law enforcement apparatus.