After years of pain and humiliation Greece may exit Euro AND EU... PVC says...

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Yes, Farage and like-minded people usually make sure that all the things the EU introduces are half-arsed and therefore lead to problems such as this. If Europe had been properly integrated politicially before the introduction of the Euro, this might have been preventable.
We still don't even have an EU army, but having an integrated NATO command structure is somehow okay.

This is not a problem with a small number of perverse politicians - remember all the failed referenda for the EU Constitution? Then there was the thing where Ireland had to vote twice to accept the Lisbon Treaty...

The masses have no appetite for becoming a Federal Union, many of the countries involved are ALREADY Federal Unions, they don't want to be subsumed under another level of government.

So, again, Farage is basically right - whether you believe in the dream of the EU or not, it's been done backwards and the wheels are in danger of coming off.

[Husar]

This is not a problem with a small number of perverse politicians - remember all the failed referenda for the EU Constitution? Then there was the thing where Ireland had to vote twice to accept the Lisbon Treaty...

The masses have no appetite for becoming a Federal Union, many of the countries involved are ALREADY Federal Unions, they don't want to be subsumed under another level of government.

So, again, Farage is basically right - whether you believe in the dream of the EU or not, it's been done backwards and the wheels are in danger of coming off.

I said Farage and like-minde people, not just like-minded politicians.
So people vote no in referenda but do not vote in sufficient numbers for UKIP and other parties to get out of the half-arsed, obviously faulty thing that the EU is right now. Does that mean that the masses want this to be a mess? It appears as though most people are just led around by the established parties and the press, does that not make it the fault of the masses that we are in this insufficient state in Europe?

You can't blame the politicians that you reelect all the time. Maybe if you voted for someone else, but in a democracy that still means that most of your fellow nationals, with whom you supposedly have so much in common, still wanted someone else.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I said Farage and like-minde people, not just like-minded politicians.
So people vote no in referenda but do not vote in sufficient numbers for UKIP and other parties to get out of the half-arsed, obviously faulty thing that the EU is right now. Does that mean that the masses want this to be a mess? It appears as though most people are just led around by the established parties and the press, does that not make it the fault of the masses that we are in this insufficient state in Europe?

You can't blame the politicians that you reelect all the time. Maybe if you voted for someone else, but in a democracy that still means that most of your fellow nationals, with whom you supposedly have so much in common, still wanted someone else.

It has been shown, time and again, that across Europe people vote on the basis of domestic issues, not EU-related ones. Things are different at the EU level where there actually are a lot of Eurosceptic politicians, enough to demonstrate that there isn't the political will for a true Federation. The problem is that, by and large, the EU project has progressed without the consent of the masses, so people were voting for lower taxes or for a better transport system, or cuts to the military after the Cold War and meanwhile the EU project marches on in the background until suddenly Germans wake up one morning and discover that the Greek national debt is now their problem.

It's like a relationship, if you want it to succeed then you have to compromise, if you don't want it to compromise then your own self-interest is more important to you than the relationship. If the other EMU nations want Greece to remain in the Euro then they have to pay for it themselves, up front, and not "loan" Greece cash it can never pay back.

It should have been clear to everyone this wasn't going to work back in 1992 when Soros forced Britain out of the EERM - and toppled the last Conservative Government in the process.

[Pannonian]

I said Farage and like-minde people, not just like-minded politicians.
So people vote no in referenda but do not vote in sufficient numbers for UKIP and other parties to get out of the half-arsed, obviously faulty thing that the EU is right now. Does that mean that the masses want this to be a mess? It appears as though most people are just led around by the established parties and the press, does that not make it the fault of the masses that we are in this insufficient state in Europe?

You can't blame the politicians that you reelect all the time. Maybe if you voted for someone else, but in a democracy that still means that most of your fellow nationals, with whom you supposedly have so much in common, still wanted someone else.

I'm quite happy with a half-arsed EU, if by that you mean a common market, common mentality which allows us to work in concert as a political and economic bloc, and I'd like us to work even closer as a military bloc a la NATO, whilst still accepting that different states have different interests. I'm wary enough of my country's government to want more interactions with them, and I certainly don't want closer involvement with an even more remote government. It doesn't mean I reject involvement on an individual level with the rest of the EU; I feel even closer to other Europeans than even to Americans and other Anglophones. Possibly except for Antipodeans, who are essentially English with a different accent.

[Pannonian]

It has been shown, time and again, that across Europe people vote on the basis of domestic issues, not EU-related ones. Things are different at the EU level where there actually are a lot of Eurosceptic politicians, enough to demonstrate that there isn't the political will for a true Federation. The problem is that, by and large, the EU project has progressed without the consent of the masses, so people were voting for lower taxes or for a better transport system, or cuts to the military after the Cold War and meanwhile the EU project marches on in the background until suddenly Germans wake up one morning and discover that the Greek national debt is now their problem.

It's like a relationship, if you want it to succeed then you have to compromise, if you don't want it to compromise then your own self-interest is more important to you than the relationship. If the other EMU nations want Greece to remain in the Euro then they have to pay for it themselves, up front, and not "loan" Greece cash it can never pay back.

It should have been clear to everyone this wasn't going to work back in 1992 when Soros forced Britain out of the EERM - and toppled the last Conservative Government in the process.

At least the England-Scotland relationship is up front with the realities and the solutions.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/e...eal-looms.html

After all that it looks like the Greek government would rather bow than accept leaving the Euro, so the pain continues, Greeks get poorer and the EU is even further from genuine, meaningful, reform.

[a completely inoffensive name]

The bankers get what they want. This is why the EU vision was dead from day 1.

[Brenus]

"After all that it looks like the Greek government would rather bow than accept leaving the Euro, so the pain continues, Greeks get poorer and the EU is even further from genuine, meaningful, reform." Not yet. Don't trust media that told you the Yes vote was leading... They had it wrong once, they might have it again.
BTW, read what the Greek Parliament voted for. You might be surprised, and probably find out that the description offered by your link is at least, misinforming or plain and blunt lies.
It put the last decision in EU hands, whatever the outcome will...

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Brenus, can you please stop posting like Yoda? I know you can manage English syntax better than that.

If it's all lies I'd like a counter-link, please, because from where I'm sitting they basically agreed to all the things rejected in the referendum, pension cuts, tax rises and sell-off of state assets.

[Sarmatian]

Brenus, can you please stop posting like Yoda? I know you can manage English syntax better than that.

If it's all lies I'd like a counter-link, please, because from where I'm sitting they basically agreed to all the things rejected in the referendum, pension cuts, tax rises and sell-off of state assets.

It's really difficult to tell without knowing the exact wording, because it isn't all that simple. For instance, IMF wanted to raise the pension age to 67 iirc - Greek government agreed to that but wanted it to start in 2022, or something like that.

Everyone understands that there's a need for serious reforms in Greece. The Greek government wants them to be a little less severe and implemented gradually over the next 10-15 years while creditors want them implemented yesterday.

[Husar]

So if I have a relatively low income and already took a credit of 100k€, and then I go to my bank, will they give me another credit of 20k€?

And if they do and I end up unable to pay it back, is it entirely my fault?

This is what happens when you are too optimistic, you only get disappointed...

People gave Greece and homeowners more money than they should have given them and now they demand their money back because the bonus payments for exceptional performance are due.

[Husar]

I take everything back, the only thing that matters is that everyone can make a profit from the economic downturn (from 2011 but sounds as relevant as ever):

[Sarmatian]

It can amaze just how economists sometimes don't understand economy.

I'm backing Picketty on this one - restructure and write off a chunk of the internal European debt.
After that, find some big projects (20bn, 50bn, a 100bn euros) that can kickstart the economy.

[Brenus]

"So if I have a relatively low income and already took a credit of 100k€, and then I go to my bank, will they give me another credit of 20k€?". Yeap if what they can recover after your bankruptcy is old unwashed clothing...
They will go for a plan which will allow you to live and reimburse the debt.

However, for states and Banks, it is different.

If your are a bank, the Government back you up, make a private debt (yours) a public debt (tax payers) then imposes drastic cuts and pretends/convinces that the population is guilty of spending too much, and imposes austerity on the poorest. You can keep your bonuses, houses, change mistresses and cars as you were, oops, sorry, are, one of the best and you will go somewhere else if someone want to take the money you stole, ooops again, earned in selling dubious products or toxic assets. Do not fear jail or even some Court Proceedings, the Government will not allow this to happen.
If you are a State (a big one as Germany in 1953) or with a powerful protector (Iraq after USA invasion) your debt is written off.It never existed anyway. Your debt became odious as the one of Cuba after USA invasion (I know, I know).
The troubles start only if you are a small State, and you are from another political agenda than the ones that precisely put your country where you are, and to whom the same shouting at you now gave the monies without a whisper or a question.
It is not economy, it is politic.
All know Greece cannot repay, but with a signature on a treaty that every one knows can't be honoured, money would been given to Greece in order to pay the Submarines Greece bought from Germany (as part of the former agreement) and the Rafales to France. And Greece debt would have rise-up again, as it did with the same plan 5 years ago.
I almost forgot all this crisis is due to comfortable pensions and lazy civil servants having 2 jobs who could access free money to buy swimming pools.

[Gilrandir]

After that, find some big projects (20bn, 50bn, a 100bn euros) that can kickstart the economy.

These bn euros have been given more than once yet the economy is still where it was. How can you be sure the new bns would do it this time?

I almost forgot all this crisis is due to comfortable pensions and lazy civil servants having 2 jobs who could access free money to buy swimming pools.

I know that Greek engine drivers were (or still are?) paid a 5000$ bonus yearly for washing their hands.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/johan-..._b_935428.html
I believe other professions could (or still can?) boast of similar incomes. If suchlike bonuses are what they are fighting for to keep, how can they get out of the hole dug by reckless wage policies?

[Fragony]

You could as well call it a hostile takeover, deal is made. Sorry Greeks, it wasn't me. Any coincidence that eurocrats have interests in the things you have to hand over to the EU.

nomnomnom

[Sir Moody]

These bn euros have been given more than once yet the economy is still where it was. How can you be sure the new bns would do it this time?

Those payments were to balance the books not to fund the economy - Samatian is essentially suggesting the EU should cut out the Greek government and fund some big projects directly to try and kickstart the economy.

[Fragony]

Those payments were to balance the books not to fund the economy .

Ya, it's a covert baillout at the expense of the Greek economy and the Greece people, it's not right to do this. Many things go wrong there but at least have some pity for those who's fault it isn't. Wrong investments, gob them up yourself, there is always a risk.

adition, why the que force a country to make the retirement age higher when there is a huge youth-unemployment? Is that stupid or is it stupid, pick one. And can't take all their means and expect them to recover. It's so... whatever. I don't want Greece to leave the EU mind you, I want the Netherlands to, most of us do.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

So - now the Americans are taking notice: http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/201...seid=auto&_r=2

"Suppose you consider Tsipras an incompetent twerp. Suppose you dearly want to see Syriza out of power. Suppose, even, that you welcome the prospect of pushing those annoying Greeks out of the euro.
Even if all of that is true, this Eurogroup list of demands is madness. The trending hashtag ThisIsACoup is exactly right. This goes beyond harsh into pure vindictiveness, complete destruction of national sovereignty, and no hope of relief. It is, presumably, meant to be an offer Greece can’t accept; but even so, it’s a grotesque betrayal of everything the European project was supposed to stand for."

[rory_20_uk]

Yadition, why the que force a country to make the retirement age higher when there is a huge youth-unemployment? Is that stupid or is it stupid, pick one. And can't take all their means and expect them to recover. It's so... whatever. I don't want Greece to leave the EU mind you, I want the Netherlands to, most of us do.

There are not a finite number of jobs, nor are there that many jobs only Greeks can do. So, increasing retirement age reduces state costs and does not block jobs that would then automatically fall to the young. The reason there are no jobs is their appalling infrastructure, sclerotic job market and lack of industries that create anything.

[Crandar]

So, an agreement was signed, which is inevitably and unsurprisingly much worse (for Greece) than the revious ones. Well, Greece and her government got what they deserved. Apparently, the Nazi Germans did not succumb to the stratagems of Leonidas and his South Movement.
I wonder how the sheeple that cheered at the night of the referendum will react now that their "leftist" leader abandoned them.

[rory_20_uk]

In many cases they are being forced to do what they were requested to do 5 years ago and have spent the last few months undoing.

Debts eventually have to be paid or written off which has its own penalties. Unless they thought retiring at 55 in a country that makes practically nothing, has no IP and frankly no way to pay its way the people were at best wilfully in denial.

[Kagemusha]

So, an agreement was signed, which is inevitably and unsurprisingly much worse (for Greece) than the revious ones. Well, Greece and her government got what they deserved. Apparently, the Nazi Germans did not succumb to the stratagems of Leonidas and his South Movement.
I wonder how the sheeple that cheered at the night of the referendum will react now that their "leftist" leader abandoned them.

The Germans, Benelux countries, Austrians and Finnish were pushing for Grexit right until the end of last night. Greece can thank France, Italy and Spain for even these more harsh terms being offered.

I sincerely hope that the Greek parliament will not accept the terms of EU. It would be better in the long run for both EMU and Greece if Greece would see themselves out from Euro and leave the door open for those whose economy is not suited for a strong currency while they make their exit.

[Brenus]

So, Tsipras can now go back to Greece and ell them: Do you want to stay in this Europe? Will you accept this diktat? And if he does, how much will welcome all others solutions than the European one?
And this is the end of the EU. Submit or die...
The worst is I voted for EU... Long ago, before money took over... I had the dream... Well, the reality is I helped to built the power that is oppressing us now... A little bit like my communist grand-father after Budapest. I know now how he felt...

[Pannonian]

So, Tsipras can now go back to Greece and ell them: Do you want to stay in this Europe? Will you accept this diktat? And if he does, how much will welcome all others solutions than the European one?
And this is the end of the EU. Submit or die...
The worst is I voted for EU... Long ago, before money took over... I had the dream... Well, the reality is I helped to built the power that is oppressing us now... A little bit like my communist grand-father after Budapest. I know now how he felt...

Maybe you should follow the British view that the EU is better off as a common market, an economic bloc when dealing with the outside world, and a people united in their belief in liberal democracy, and not push for anything more than that.

[Kagemusha]

Maybe you should follow the British view that the EU is better off as a common market, an economic bloc when dealing with the outside world, and a people united in their belief in liberal democracy, and not push for anything more than that.

I think you are right that this crisis clearly shows how far from Federal state EU really is.

[Papewaio]

It would be funny if China or Russia put up the money for Greece...

The current bailout reminds me more of the post WWI demands on Germany rather then the Marshall plan to rebuild Europe.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

So, an agreement was signed, which is inevitably and unsurprisingly much worse (for Greece) than the revious ones. Well, Greece and her government got what they deserved. Apparently, the Nazi Germans did not succumb to the stratagems of Leonidas and his South Movement.
I wonder how the sheeple that cheered at the night of the referendum will react now that their "leftist" leader abandoned them.

The Greek economy is collapsing and the country is in danger of joining the Third World. No people deserve that, certainly not for irresponsible fiscal policy.

The way people talk about the Greeks you'd think they all bathed in the blood of Arian children.

In many cases they are being forced to do what they were requested to do 5 years ago and have spent the last few months undoing.

Debts eventually have to be paid or written off which has its own penalties. Unless they thought retiring at 55 in a country that makes practically nothing, has no IP and frankly no way to pay its way the people were at best wilfully in denial.

Greece has already made considerable cuts, and all that has happened is the economy has shrunk faster than the debt. Tax rises will simply produce more tax evasion, especially in a climate where people have almost no money to begin with. The worst part is the forced sell off of profitable assets that will further beggar the Greek state.

At least now we know the Germans are finally over World War II because their politicians are back to being merciless and inhumane (not a Nazi reference, btw).

[Brandy Blue]

The way people talk about the Greeks you'd think they all bathed in the blood of Arian children.

I don’t think you understand the gravity of the situation. If the Greeks were guilty of no more than bathing in the blood of Arian children, it would be easy to deal with. The European Court would fine them for discrimination, the Greeks wouldn’t pay but would promise to bathe in the blood of children of all ethnic groups in proportion to their population within the EU, and everyone would turn a blind eye when the Greek government fiddled the numbers to make it look like they’d kept their promise. After all, you can’t combine 503 million people from 28 countries and no one knows how many ethnic groups without turning a blind eye to a certain amount of weirdness. Besides, bathing in the blood of children is just as cultural as the French habit of making unhygienic cheese just because it tastes better.
However, the Greeks are guilty of something much worse. They have repeatedly and perniciously been poor in a way that shows up the short comings of how the EU and the Euro have been implemented. It's amazing how much suffering they've inflicted on themselves and others out of sheer mulish obstinacy.

They have compounded this crime by electing and being deceived by bad leaders, an action which every democracy has performed, but which suddenly becomes criminal as soon as it's convenient to tell the electorate that they got the leadership they deserved because they aren’t all experts on politics and economics.
That said, I wouldn’t be surprised if Greece does get expelled, at least from the Euro zone, maybe from the EU. So we might as well blame them so no one will have to feel bad about it.

At least now we know the Germans are finally over World War II because their politicians are back to being merciless and inhumane (not a Nazi reference, btw).

Bit rough on the Germans, or is this a joke I was too humorless to get?

[Pannonian]

I don’t think you understand the gravity of the situation. If the Greeks were guilty of no more than bathing in the blood of Arian children, it would be easy to deal with. The European Court would fine them for discrimination, the Greeks wouldn’t pay but would promise to bathe in the blood of children of all ethnic groups in proportion to their population within the EU, and everyone would turn a blind eye when the Greek government fiddled the numbers to make it look like they’d kept their promise. After all, you can’t combine 503 million people from 28 countries and no one knows how many ethnic groups without turning a blind eye to a certain amount of weirdness. Besides, bathing in the blood of children is just as cultural as the French habit of making unhygienic cheese just because it tastes better.
However, the Greeks are guilty of something much worse. They have repeatedly and perniciously been poor in a way that shows up the short comings of how the EU and the Euro have been implemented. It's amazing how much suffering they've inflicted on themselves and others out of sheer mulish obstinacy.

They have compounded this crime by electing and being deceived by bad leaders, an action which every democracy has performed, but which suddenly becomes criminal as soon as it's convenient to tell the electorate that they got the leadership they deserved because they aren’t all experts on politics and economics.
That said, I wouldn’t be surprised if Greece does get expelled, at least from the Euro zone, maybe from the EU. So we might as well blame them so no one will have to feel bad about it.

The British electorate in general, and the Scottish electorate in particular, have had a political discourse on precisely those economic points that seem to elude the Greek politicians. Is it too much to expect professional politicians to have a better grasp of economics than a population numbering millions?