After years of pain and humiliation Greece may exit Euro AND EU... PVC says...

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

That works when there's enough of it.

Or better yet, we can't be sure if we've made that step from clan to country until we've seen how we act when the going gets tough.

Economic issues were, of course, a central part of the argument but the country was, I would argue, a pressure cooker kept below critical pressure by Tito. When Tito died he left a power vacuum and it was the subsequent bickering amongst the elite that led to war rather than just political breakup.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Frau Kanzlerin?

Merkel?

(I had to look that up)

No, I would say not, not only is she unlikely to survive another election but she's not even a powerful leader within Germany - Germany has influence over the EU but Merkel is no Empress to whos beat the Germans march.

[Brenus]

"No, I would say not, not only is she unlikely to survive another election". She didn't last time. She governs within a coalition with the Socialists, or pretending to be socialists...

[Husar]

Merkel and the CDU/CSU won 72 seats and a considerable amount of votes in the last election: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German...election,_2013

She had to enter a coalition with the SPD because her preferred partner, the FDP, lost so many seats tha they didn't even make the 5% of votes required to get seats in the parliament. The other three parties couldn't make a coalition because noone wants to partner with the left and SPD and Greens alone didn't have enough seats either.
The point is, if Merkel continues to gain like that, she may become supreme ruler and not need a coalition anymore.
At the moment it looks as though the results may not chang ea whole lot with the next election:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_G...deral_election
If the FDP can make it to 5% again, she will probably enter a coalition with them and then politics may become even more business friendly than with the current fake-socialists.
Of course, things can still happen that change the results.

[Brenus]

60 % voted no. Polls you said?

[Crandar]

60 % voted no. Polls you said?

The far-right leader of the opposition and ex-prime minister announced his resignation.
I am happy with the "non", as that disappointed the hilariously panicked media and is going to perfectly demonstrate the contradiction of CORAL, with its populist and unrealistic ideas.

[HopAlongBunny]

61% No apparently.
"Uncharted waters" here we come; indeed we may embark on a new Age of Exploration :)

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/...0P40EO20150705

[HopAlongBunny]

Just curious.
Since blackmail and coercion didn't quite go as planned, will the "techs" now advance the IMF proposal?
It does not prostrate Greece on the altar of finance, but it is a "face saving" alternative, with the added cover of "Well those guys recommended it".

[Brenus]

Media actively engage in the war propaganda against Greece.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

61% No apparently.
"Uncharted waters" here we come; indeed we may embark on a new Age of Exploration :)

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/...0P40EO20150705

On a 61% turnout, which works out as about 37% of the electorate saying "no", an even smaller proportion saying "yes" and the largest contingent not casting a vote at 39%.

[Strike For The South]

Cut them loose. The Eurozone should have never gone south of France or east of Austria. Good riddance to bad rubbish. Maybe Russia can repatriate a few more square KMs of land in the name of eastern Christendom.

[Fragony]

Counting is done, it's a no. Can't blame them considering how unreasonable the demands were

[Brenus]

"On a 61% turnout, which works out as about 37% of the electorate saying "no", an even smaller proportion saying "yes" and the largest contingent not casting a vote at 39%." Unfortunately a trend in all democratic countries. WE have now government and parliaments elected by minorities but still acting as they are the majority.

[Fragony]

Democracy what's, handy map of what we voted for, we got the EU-constitution anyway they just called it something else and shoved it up our ass https://mobile.twitter.com/BartNijma...325376/photo/1

[Sarmatian]

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

"On a 61% turnout, which works out as about 37% of the electorate saying "no", an even smaller proportion saying "yes" and the largest contingent not casting a vote at 39%." Unfortunately a trend in all democratic countries. WE have now government and parliaments elected by minorities but still acting as they are the majority.

While true it's worth noting that referendum turnout, especially at times of national stress is usually higher. In the UK the Blair years saw a fall in turnout, from a general average of 71% down to 59% in 2001, before gradually climbing to 65% in 2010 and 66.1% in 2015. We're not quite up to pre-Blair levels, but it's getting there and turnout in the Scottish referendum was over 90% in some places.

[Greyblades]

[Brenus]

Because Germany and France always paid debts?.... What a short memory these countries have?

[InsaneApache]

and people call him an extremist!

BTW the look on Tspiras' face is priceless.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

and people call him an extremist!

BTW the look on Tspiras' face is priceless.

It must be pretty rough when the guy saying nice things about you is the one telling you you have to leave the Euro.

Another thought for you - everybody talks about how the Greeks should be more "discipled" i.e. German but nobody things the Germans should be more Greek.

[Husar]

Another thought for you - everybody talks about how the Greeks should be more "discipled" i.e. German but nobody things the Germans should be more Greek.

That's how it appears, but one could say the people who want Germany to hand over more money to Greece for no return and with no hope of growth want Germany to act more Greek.

[lars573]

That's how it appears, but one could say the people who want Germany to hand over more money to Greece for no return and with no hope of growth want Germany to act more Greek.

But if you want a functional federation with a common currency that's what has to happen. Most other federal states do it.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Wait, there are people still trying to keep Greece in the Euro? I think the idea of a united Europe is great but come on people...

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

That's how it appears, but one could say the people who want Germany to hand over more money to Greece for no return and with no hope of growth want Germany to act more Greek.

Maybe but...

But if you want a functional federation with a common currency that's what has to happen. Most other federal states do it.

This - Greece can't pay its debts itself, the only way that Greece can pay its debts is for the Eurozone to take on common liability and borrow with commons bonds. This would hurt Germany, which is why the Germans won't agree to it.

Farage was basically right, except that the Eurozone never became a proper economic union, because you still have separate debt.

[Pannonian]

This - Greece can't pay its debts itself, the only way that Greece can pay its debts is for the Eurozone to take on common liability and borrow with commons bonds. This would hurt Germany, which is why the Germans won't agree to it.

Farage was basically right, except that the Eurozone never became a proper economic union, because you still have separate debt.

It's the same argument re:sterling and an independent Scotland.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

It's the same argument re:sterling and an independent Scotland.

Possibly the biggest reason the referendum got a "no"

[Husar]

This - Greece can't pay its debts itself, the only way that Greece can pay its debts is for the Eurozone to take on common liability and borrow with commons bonds. This would hurt Germany, which is why the Germans won't agree to it.

Farage was basically right, except that the Eurozone never became a proper economic union, because you still have separate debt.

Yes, Farage and like-minded people usually make sure that all the things the EU introduces are half-arsed and therefore lead to problems such as this. If Europe had been properly integrated politicially before the introduction of the Euro, this might have been preventable.
We still don't even have an EU army, but having an integrated NATO command structure is somehow okay.

[Pannonian]

Yes, Farage and like-minded people usually make sure that all the things the EU introduces are half-arsed and therefore lead to problems such as this. If Europe had been properly integrated politicially before the introduction of the Euro, this might have been preventable.
We still don't even have an EU army, but having an integrated NATO command structure is somehow okay.

Without proper budgetary union, I'm not sure how the other aspects of political union, such as a common defence and political structure and all that, would have helped here. You can impose a common uniform on all schoolchildren as well, and it still won't help if significant chunks of the common politic can't agree on how the money system should work.

[Husar]

Without proper budgetary union, I'm not sure how the other aspects of political union, such as a common defence and political structure and all that, would have helped here. You can impose a common uniform on all schoolchildren as well, and it still won't help if significant chunks of the common politic can't agree on how the money system should work.

Yes, we should have created a full union where each former nation is a state of the new federation.

[Kagemusha]

Yes, we should have created a full union where each former nation is a state of the new federation.

In that case Eu should first become a democracy.Same applies to the army you mentioned as well. Without checks and balances,pardon my french..No way in hell.