IMMIGRATION thread

[AE Bravo]

And where preachers are shown to be funded by terrorists, or are stirring up hatred or inciting violence that can be dealt with.

Really? Because I see them on TV interviews and walking freely across the UK with their hate speech. IS sympathizers too.

What you're essentially saying is that the Imans in this country signed Faustian pacts with the Muslim Brotherhood etc. and now the Mosques have been taken over by radicals and hardliners. This view is reductive, it assumes that the majority of Muslims are extremely stupid and with believe whatever in Imax says AND it ignores the simple fact that moderate Islam in the UK is largely not listend to anymore.

Nope, it's how the system works. Saudi Arabia and the MB are two competing Salafi ideologies, the mosques in Europe are part of a racket and flow of money goes to the angriest beards. I mentioned earlier that basically all your student associations are funded by the brotherhood.

It's not "Faustian." It's business, and Saudi business is booming. I think saying that this must be because all Muslims are stupid is reductive, because these are the mosques they have access to and somewhere down the line they get turned for a lack of opposing viewpoints.

As far as all religions believing that you should do no harm to others - that's a long way from being true. The Jewish God El in his original form was vengeful and wrathful and his harsh judgement reached down through the generations. He repeatedly ordered the massacre of entire peoples. Allah sent the Prophet on a mission to, essentially, conquer the world - something which assumes that killing for God in battle if righteous. Indeed, I'm fairly certain that in some instances the Prophet ordered entire populations massacred when they refused to convert and special consideration was only given to Christians and Jews.

I can't argue with Old Testament god being vengeful and wrathful. However, the prophet was not sent down to conquer the world and he did not order entire populations massacred when they refused to convert.

This means they're often relatively ignorant of the Church Fathers and later writers, and that they come to the religion with their own viewpoint and then ajust that to a group they feel comfortable with, rather than being part of a group and then interpreting the Creed in their own way.

That's perfectly okay. I'm simply pointing out that Christianity has reached a point where its adherents feel free to shape it the way they want, no matter how radical the change is.

What is "Left Wing" Islam though? Equal rights for women? Disregarding of headcoverings for the same? What about homosexuals? What's the stance on corporal punishement for children? Principles of government?

All of those things. In order for any of that to happen or for Islamism to be fully extinguished, left leaning Islam would be to refrain from criticizing the earliest Muslims and all the prophets including Jesus and Mohammed. They were all human and had their flaws, there’s nothing wrong with saying that and I do say it to a fellow Muslim every time it’s brought up. The second step would be to accept that the stories in scripture did not actually happen the way they were written. Finally, no illusions of Sharia and a restrained society because this is not even close to how the first Muslim community lived, and wouldn’t be good either way. Islamic governance is anything that is for the people, like it was initially.

We've seen in the middle east that when all these thoughts are accepted we get secular societies that are closer to how Muslims in Medina lived than current Islamist states like Saudi and Iran.

Fact is, there are widespread problems with abuse of women and homosexuals, honour killings, forced marriages and female genital mutilations. We have special police task forces for the latter. Now, do I think that the majority of Muslims do these things? No, but I do think the majority are more in sympathy with the perpetrators than with me.

I suspect that has more to do with their xenophobia towards the west than religion, leading them to tighten grip on their women/families, which is validated by how the keepers of the two holy sites govern their country. Besides looking down on homosexuality, these are not credible Islamic practices.