Terror Attack: 130 Dead in Paris

[Montmorency]

Typo: In the previous post where it was stated, "Syria and Iraq" it should have read, "Syria and Egypt"

[Strike For The South]

This is a somewhat-mistaken preconception. Israel as a geographical and political entity cannot ever be destroyed by any one of its neighbors, and even in combination the level of coordination required given the geographic and institutional boundaries would give even NATO trouble - and this kind of concerted effort would become common knowledge to the world long before the time to strike could arrive. The Yom Kippur war is testament to just how difficult it is. Syria and Iraq vaguely timed military incursions around the same week, merely with the goal of (re)taking strategic terrain in the Golan Heights and the Sinai. Syria was defeated handily, but Egypt at least got as far as the other side of the Suez Canal. This, in other words, was the "debacle" that embarrassed Israel, raised tensions between blocs, and precipitated a land swap favorable to Egypt under the condition that they become a de-facto ally of Israel. That is the worst it ever got for Israel as an established state. The existence of Israel says as much about the Arab militaries as the neutrality of Switzerland says about the Nazi German military.

The Germans never made any concerted effort to genocide the Swiss. It's worth remembering that the Swiss allowed their railways and banks to be used by the Germans. I don't like your analogy.

Finally, consider that Israel's neighbors find it useful as a buffer between each other. Indeed, the only way that Israel could be militarily overrun by anything in the region (given the further assumption that the US and EU have no involvement whatsoever) is if Turkey, Iran, and Egypt were to explicitly organize a Muslim coalition over an extended period of time, developing joint command, communication infrastructure, and logistical and intelligence harmonization such that they would be prepared to sustain massive casualties over many weeks to ensure that entrenched Israeli positions could be overcome with brute force, allowing the forces to break through and reach the major cities of the coast and the center. And then, of course, they have to accomplish a thing that modernity has not had the opportunity to witness the circumstances for: break apart the rump resistance in the hilly Galilee, including fanatical guerrillas and desperate militias.

Isreal is only one example.
http://www.meforum.org/441/why-arabs-lose-wars

I also encourage you to pick up "Arabs at war" by Pollack, does a much better job than that shorthand article.

[Kagemusha]

OK


Oh silly me, thinking when you reference asylum seekers in this thread, you mean those from the middle east. Is this supposed to be on of those gotcha moments? Do you really think you have backed me into some sort of corner?


Training still costs money and time.

If by few hired service men you mean all volunteer force pulled from the citizenry, then yes you are correct. All able bodied American men can be called up in a state of emergency anyway. The conscript armies of Europe rely on American muscle and have since NATO became a thing. I realize Finland is not part of NATO but a Russian attack on Finland (the only real reason Finland would mobilize ever) would effectively trigger the same response.

You also conveniently forget that Europeans are required to do this as a citizen. Are we going to force the refugees to fight for us now? How wonderfully 19th century.

If the best thing you can sling at me is "hurr durr Americans can't protect the food they love so much" than I think we are done discussing anything of merit. You can crawl back inside your bottle and hope your friends don't kill themselves because you people wont see the sun for the next six months.



What are you talking about? Deploying is a problem because I don't want to see anymore Western lives lost but we can't trust this investment to a home grown general staff. The Saudis and a peaceful Syria have co-exsisted before, it can happen again.

You know upkeep in refugee centers cost also time and money. What i mean with deployment problem is that your Saudi friends are supporting the lunatics in Iraq and Syria first place and your politics are large reason this whole mess got started, while your twisted alliances are one key reason why it is so hard to dismantle.

But sorry i forget im talking with all knowing Texan here, who speaks with unlimited knowledge. This just shows that you have nothing else to add rather then trolling. I could tell you where to crawl, but you silly little man with your superiority complex aint worth it.

[Strike For The South]

You know upkeep in refugee centers cost also time and money.

And look how swimmingly thats going!

What i mean with deployment problem is that your Saudi friends are supporting the lunatics in Iraq and Syria first place and your politics are large reason this whole mess got started, whil,e your twisted alliances are one key reason why it is so hard to dismantle.

Right but the fails to address how we train, feed, deploy, and lead this refugee army beyond "well we can't use the Saudis".

But sorry i forget im talking with all knowing Texan here, who speaks with unlimited knowledge. This just shows that you have nothing else to add rather then trolling. I could tell you where to crawl, but you silly little man with your superiority complex aint worth it.

It's been nice talking to you.

[Montmorency]

The Germans never made any concerted effort to genocide the Swiss.

Well, yes, that's the point.

It's worth remembering that the Swiss allowed their railways and banks to be used by the Germans. I don't like your analogy.

Their biggest geographic advantage is also their biggest disadvantage. Even so, troops and war materiel did not pass along those railways in any quantity.

Israel is in an even better position, as where it is not surrounded by desert or mountain, it borders water.

[AE Bravo]

Bush was a Texan too. He's probably getting paintings of himself done and smoking cigars with Bandar in the mansion instead of lifting a finger for this mess.

Texans gonna Texan.

[Viking]

Justice and speaking your mind become harder under an autocracy which is seemingly the only thing that works in the region.

The last years have told us that authoritarianism there have no guarantees that it works. One by one such governments toppled over or faced open revolt, like falling dominoes.

Maybe North Korea is an example of a magic authoritarian brew that can remain stable over time, but I doubt it.

[Montmorency]

The authoritarianism does work, as it always has in these sorts of regions, but the problem we see is that 'the tree of tyranny must be refreshed from time to time by the blood of regimes'.

[Strike For The South]

Bush was a Texan too. He's probably getting paintings of himself done and smoking cigars with Bandar in the mansion instead of lifting a finger for this mess.

Texans gonna Texan.

Bush is not a Texan :)

[Husar]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.n...cbfb17875fb2df

[Viking]

The authoritarianism does work, as it always has in these sorts of regions, but the problem we see is that 'the tree of tyranny must be refreshed from time to time by the blood of regimes'.

Which, as far as consistent stability is concerned, is the same as saying that these types of governments do not work.

[AE Bravo]

So lemme get this straight. French intelligence put algerian guy under surveillance in his trips to turkey and syria but didnt question him when he came back to paris?

misdirected hatred at its finest.

[Kagemusha]

It's been nice talking to you.

No, cant really say the same but educating nevertheless.

[Strike For The South]

No, cant really say the same but educating nevertheless.

The best teaching moments come when one realizes he was wrong. Glad you have grown.

[Kagemusha]

The best teaching moments come when one realizes he was wrong. Glad you have grown.

Maybe one day you will learn that lesson as well. Maybe then talking with you becomes nice.

[Strike For The South]

Maybe one day you will learn that lesson as well. Maybe then talking with you becomes nice.

Talking with me is nice if you don't take it personally.

I know you know arming the refugees is a fools errand. I am sure you know, I know that the west is not completely blameless in why things are the way that they are. I don't wake up every morning and bask in the reality that the US is in bed with some bad people who basically enslave their own countymen, quite frankly it makes me retch. I also sympathize with your feelings about the death that seemingly surrounds us. It is not something I want or enjoy or even think is necessary.

But I will not be cowtowed and told to look inward when these attacks happen. The West did not beat fascism and Communism to be taken down by a bunch of religious flunkies. I will not be told the west needs to give in because of some nebulous concept of fault. I don't really know what else to say.

[AE Bravo]

Predictable. So place a stigma on islam like fascism and communism. Amateur securitization.

[Strike For The South]

Predictable. So place a stigma on islam like fascism and communism. Amateur securitization.

The stigma is not on Islam per se but the seeming tacit approval most of the muslim world gives when one of these attacks happen. The stigma is against the people who would like replace the wests value system with their own, all the while enjoying what it brings them.

[Montmorency]

Which, as far as consistent stability is concerned, is the same as saying that these types of governments do not work.

In that case we could go further and point out that no types of government work as far as consistent stability is concerned.

[AE Bravo]

The stigma is not on Islam per se but the seeming tacit approval most of the muslim world gives when one of these attacks happen.

What is this based on? Just show me. I want to know.

The thing about demonization of an entire people is that it works for nobody but yourself. Why would I applaud or show "tacit" approval of anyone that is damaging the reputation of my faith and the main component of my community's regression?

Then again this is probably going nowhere.

[Husar]

[AE Bravo]

He must be a member here.

[Fisherking]

Thoughts?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...dernisers.html

[AE Bravo]

The comments in that article summarize this thread perfectly.

I even spotted the Montmorency theory of mass killing somewhere in there. Very realist.

[Strike For The South]

What is this based on? Just show me. I want to know.

The thing about demonization of an entire people is that it works for nobody but yourself. Why would I applaud or show "tacit" approval of anyone that is damaging the reputation of my faith and the main component of my community's regression?

Then again this is probably going nowhere.

http://www.breitbart.com/national-se...ical-minority/

The pew numbers from Feburary show that support for suicide bombings and/or violence in places like Jordan and Pakistan only went down after those places themselves have come under heavy attack from terrorists . Which is only human nature, I suppose.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank...uslim-nations/

Beyond that, the same Westerners who are demanding their countries import refugees en masse (with no real plan for the long term) have social views that are wildly opposed by these muslims. Rights for women, rights for homosexuals, rights for transgenders, are all very much opposed by these people.

For the most part muslims shun or disdain social engagement in Western countries. As I have touched on before that is partially the fault of Western countries themselves. Most notably France whose idea of integration is basically force feeding muslim children pork, not the way I would try to integrate my immigrants.

Coloring all of this is economic malaise. A young man without a job, without a girlfriend, and no prospects is dangerous no matter what his color or creed. I feel bad for these young guys who feel like strangers in the countries in which they were born. I'm sure both of us could bring up hundreds of examples of young men from places like Bradford and Marseilles who left their countries to join ISIS looking for purpose.

The only problem is they end up hating ISIS and want to go back to England and France. They left feeling like foreigners and when they joined the group they thought would welcome them, they still felt like foreigners. It can't be easy, operating in that kind of social no mans land.

I simply don't think large scale importation of Islam works in Western countries. The values are too far apart. This is not a judgement on either belief, just a simple thought that they don't mesh well together.

[AE Bravo]

Not clicking breitbart.

5% of Jordan are Iraqis. 3,240,000 are Palestinians. The latter are Muslims who a few decades ago went to war with the Jordanian monarchy for not fighting Israel.

The most positive rating for al Qaeda was in the Palestinian territories, where 25% had a favorable view of the terrorist organization.

AQ, the main outspoken defender of Palestinian rights not too long ago. Palestinians are living under apartheid. It's not surprising they are hostile. Evidently this doesn't really bother most Muslim states.

Do you any info on the sentiments of Muslims who haven't been subjugated by a Zionist western outpost or AQ-influenced in the case of Pakistan?

have social views that are wildly opposed by these muslims. Rights for women, rights for homosexuals, rights for transgenders, are all very much opposed by these people.

How many cases of homosexuals or transgender murdered by Muslims? If the United States is excelling here, surely the EU needs to bump up its incompetent security sector or stop biting off more than it can chew.

For the most part muslims shun or disdain social engagement in Western countries.

Bold statement. How in the world can anyone from the United States think this...

[Strike For The South]

Not clicking breitbart.
5% of Jordan are Iraqis. 3,240,000 are Palestinians. The latter are Muslims who a few decades ago went to war with the Jordanian monarchy for not fighting Israel.

AQ, the main outspoken defender of Palestinian rights not too long ago. Palestinians are living under apartheid. It's not surprising they are hostile. Evidently this doesn't really bother most Muslim states.

We are going to disagree on Israel, we can save that for another thread.

How many cases of homosexuals or transgender murdered by Muslims? If the United States is excelling here, surely the EU needs to bump up its incompetent security sector or stop biting off more than it can chew.

You can be honest, you know most mulims oppose these things. That is fine, a man is entitiled to his opinion. It is simply not the way the west is trending.

Bold statement. How in the world can anyone from the United States think this...

Integration in Europe is deteriorating and its the fault of both parties.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

LOL yeah I’m sure people have it rough in Texas. Their school textbooks are wonderful, I’m sure they get time in prison for speaking out too.

It’s funny because some of them actually think they have it rough. How cute.

Poverty, malnourishment, crime, lack of access to medical care - gun crime. Some people in Texas do have it rough, to say nothing of the inbreeding. I shouldn't cast stones over the last bit though - given the missing members of my own family tree.

So basically you would’ve preferred to have this mess sooner rather than later.

It was a tragedy before we got involved, it might not have been quite as bad if we had got involved earlier. Heavy fighting has swept most of Syria at this point. It's possible that we could have contained the conflict, geographically. At the very least we would already have been there when IS reared up and they would not have had the successes they have if they had been subjected to the wrath of the Sons of Valhalla from the beginning.

Apparently not. Picking a side will always lead to Islamist hydra. De-Baathification of the Iraqi army was the icing on the cake, you should’ve kept the high-morale secular armies while they were here instead of running them off to terrorist orgs and replacing them with head-drilling Shia militias who have had the time of their lives collecting the heads of your soldiers/American marines.

If you believe this then you're part of the problem. I'm certain not all Muslims believe this, unless all Muslims are liars.

You either help like a responsible world power as China is doing in Africa or Russia is currently doing in collaboration with a legitimate incumbent - or you leave.

I blame certain countries for allowing US, British, and French military bases instead of Russian ones. GTFO for god's sake and quit crying about immigration, we lose thousands over here your speaking one breath.

That's incredibly naive. We aren't saints but we'll still be interested in helping you after all your oil is gone, we'll probably be even nicer than we are now. Russia and China will drop you like a lump of lead - these are the countries that start wars against friendly nations for land and/or resources and then lie about it.

[a completely inoffensive name]

but we'll still be interested in helping you after all your oil is gone,

I'm not.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Thoughts?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...dernisers.html

Diagnosing the problem is not hard - I did it years ago - but finding a workable solution is. I continue to believe that the solution is increasing the economic outlook in Muslim countries for everyone, not just the princes, and toppling the most brutal of the dictators when they cross the line and start openly killing their own subjects.