The Inquisition [Concluded]

[GeneralHankerchief]

Well, GH, don't you find it a bit strange that I get 3 scans in a row pinging scum?

I do find it strange, but I also trust my own judgment. The dcmort thing came out of nowhere and there was no reason to finger him if he wasn't scum at the time. The edse thing was convenient for you, but it also passed my smell test. As for the Sooh result, I suspected her for my own reasons, so I'm naturally going to take a guilty result on her as an affirmation of my suspicions.

The same Myrddraal who's shown so much flexibility in his orientation toward his townie tools collaborators and PRs?

Why is this bad? Mafia make sure to be super-consistent in their public actions. To me flexibility indicates trying to figure things out.

And don't think I've forgotten that nice little episode early in the game, in which you nobly volunteered to be a vig-test, and everyone was onboard until Myrddraal redirected the target to the awful abstaining GoldenKnight.

I'm making no apologies for this. I volunteered because my RL situation at the time was not going to allow me much time to play for the game. Myrd asked me in private if I wanted to go through with it. I said yes. At that point he relented because, as per his words, I would still be more useful as a non-scum-controlled vote than as a corpse. I didn't take it further than that.

Here's what's what, GH. Tonight, a large vig group will attack you under my command. There's no power in me or the fractionated townies to make the attack lethal, but at this point I think it's a better alternative than scanning under the impression that I'm not being led by the nose.

If you are scum, there will be a very interesting result, even though you will not be harmed. The nice thing is, it will be evident even if I do not remain alive to elaborate.

If you are not scum, then nothing informative will occur. A wasted night, but if you put so much assurance in Sooh being scum, with or without my scan result, her lynch should follow smoothly anyway.

Uhhhhhhhhhhhh... okay, I guess.

Do you legitimately have a guilty result on Sooh?

[Montmorency]

I do indeed have a guilty result on Sooh. It remains to be seen if it's legitimate.

Myrd seems less inclined to find things out than to draw attention away from uncomfortable facts, at times to cover for me and at others to distance himself from me.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Do you have reason to believe it could be illegitimate?

Myrd has been exercising a healthy degree of skepticism towards a role that has a lot of unanswered questions surrounding it as the game has progressed. Can we please hold off on making this cold war hot until we actually lynch the person with an outstanding guilty result?

[Montmorency]

Do you have reason to believe it could be illegitimate?

Did I stutter?

Myrd has been exercising a healthy degree of skepticism towards a role that has a lot of unanswered questions surrounding it as the game has progressed.

He expressed minimal skepticism either privately or publicly until the point that I mentioned these misgivings to him. Since then, we have not really had contact. That's usually the point at which a man in dark glasses and dark suit receives the message, "He knows too much" through his earpiece.

Can we please hold off on making this cold war hot until we actually lynch the person with an outstanding guilty result?

That's what Pizza said yesterday. He died.

[GeneralHankerchief]

*sigh*

I see we're just going to have to let this play out.

You have a guilty result on Sooh but you don't trust it, because the initial suggestion came from me and you're skeptical of my motives.

I would ordinarily be posting another Hades gif at this turn of events but, despite the part of me that still wants to, I do admit that you have cause for this turn of events.

It basically comes down to me trusting my instincts and you exhibiting reasonable paranoia.

--------------

Myrddraal has shared his suspicions with me earlier. Ordinarily I would let him argue further, but seeing as we're on a bit of deadline here, I'm going to quote a recent PM exchange we've had.

Monty claimed to get alignment and night actions. When he reported a hit on dc, he said:


When he reported on edse, he said:

Surprise, surprise: edse is scum.

He was attacking Visor last night. It's confirmed.

It seemed odd. If edse was attacking Visor, that meant he must have been attacking Kage, but Monty didn't mention this. And yet he claimed he knew dc had attacked him on a previous night. Wanting to test him, I asked him what edse had been doing previous nights. The conversation went like this:

Do you get historical activity for Edse?

Yes. He was attacking Visor last night.

I'd like to know Edse's actions before last night, if you can supply them.

I only get actions the night of the scan and the night before the scan.

What was his activity the night before?

As I said, he attacked Visorslash.

Hang on, I'm obviously not being clear. You've said that last night he was attacking. What was he doing the night before the scan?

Fourth night: He was attacking Kagemusha.

Fifth night/last night/night of scan: He was attacking Visorslash. He is Mafia-aligned.

So eventually, everything Monty said was consistent, but it took him ages to get there. If I had had that result, the attack on Kage would have been the first thing I would have mentioned.

Aside from that, one more quote:

If landlubber can confirm that he was protecting with edse and JHT, no more, no less, then we have to consider the possibility that my scan was spoofed or interfered with.

If that's the case, then lynching edse would be a bad idea. If edse is telling the truth, then the only people from last night unaccounted for would be Nightbringer, Zack, and El Barto. Keep them in mind as alternatives; for now, we need to see if we can intercept landlubber when he gets online.

So he backed down on the reliability of his scans when it seemed the facts were against him. This was followed by his in-thread behaviour, where he latched onto the El Barto vote when under pressure.

It smells dodgy.

My reply to him brought up the two major questions we've had:

1. How exactly the protection nullification works. As I mentioned to Monty, I believe it's a mafia weapon, especially if we assume that Visor was just a normal townie.

2. Monty's exact supposed powers. Seems awful strong for a purely pro-town scanner, especially in light of Pizza's final PM to me and Monty being able to avoid a kill under certain circumstances.

His response:

1. I'm inclined to think this is right. It's entirely possible that khaan changed his feedback based on the confusion caused by the 'invalid protection' with you and Sooh. Remember that Sooh was involved in the first coordinated hit on Golden1Knight, so I'm not sure it makes sense that Sooh was somehow not able to protect with the group.

2. This bugs me as well. Not only because of the role claim itself, but because of how unclear it was about what exactly his powers were. I'd be interested to know the time he sent the 'Note that the watch portion' PM.

-------------

To me this seems in line with someone who initially trusted you but had further and further doubts as the game progressed.

[Montmorency]

At that point, I was working with full confidence in my scan, meaning that "DC attacked me N3 and did nothing N4" and "Edse attacked Visor N5" would straightforwardly entail "Edse attacked Kage N4". Confusion over wording is a strange thing to latch onto.

As for my the scope of my powers, I have a number of weaknesses that I will not reveal because my strategy for tonight relies on their not being exploited.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Going to bed, won't be able to respond until the morning. But I leave you with this: If you trusted me enough to scan Sooh at my behest, why not trust me enough to actually make use of your result?

[Sooh]

GH, I was simply asking for an explanation from Autolycus. It was something that made me scratch my head when I read that PM, and I was pondering whether or not I was going to send a PM and ask, but when you lifted the issue to the thread I saw no reason to keep it private.

As for the scan result, ok? It seems odd that my role should produce a guilty result unless there's foul play at hand. I don't know if a framer would be a thing in a game like this, but I wouldn't be surprised. Either that or the results are so muddled they can be read in various ways.

I don't know many things about this game since I've been kept out of the loop for a bunch of it, but the way the scanner is still alive after going public might also signify the mafia having some use of him. Just call it a hunch.

[Zack]

It seems odd that my role should produce a guilty result

How do you mean? You're not vanilla?

[Montmorency]

If you trusted me enough to scan Sooh at my behest

I hoped there would be a different result. As it is, the night unfolded just as I expected given Mafia manipulation.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I would say that it is not unprecedented that a scan can be spoofed.

A game hosted by YLC many years back had a scan spoofer. Khaan has been playing since that era, and I would imagine he doesn't give the town these protective powers, vig powers, these numbers, and a detective unless he gives the mafia compensation.

[Myrddraal]

Monty is being inconsistent all 'round. First of all, he says I have only recently turned against him. It's more the case that my doubts have recently solidified enough to go public with them. I've been discussing his potential guilt with ATPG since day 2, when ATPG expressed doubt about the power of his role and suggested he might be a mafia tracker. Several small things caught my attention and built that doubt. None significant in themselves until recently (one small example, Monty said he had scanned Kage, and in his PM he just said it was 'interesting'. A bit like a phishing email...). Not enough to arouse suspicion if we weren't already suspicious.

After getting caught out with his 'scan' of Edse due to unexpected levels of town coordination, Monty backed down on his scanning abilities, saying they could have been tampered with. He now suggests that I could be the one tampering with his results. A bit desperate no? Is it more likely that Monty 'has been interfered with' or that he's lying? Remember that I pointed out the discrepancy between his scan and Edse's presence. Remember that I also pointed out the error in the numbers in write-up (clearing up confusion as no Mafioso would ever do).

Finally, if you still doubt which of us to believe, I'll point out that Kage contacted me in the first night and revealed his role on private. The Shahnaks can testify that I revealed this (without giving Kage's identity) in a QT and coordinated the double vig/protection on Golden to test Kage's claim. There are no post-death reveals in this game. Were I Mafia, Kage wouldn't have survived N0.

[Myrddraal]

Monty, if you're innocent you need to explain a few things, not least why you 'expected' the Sooh result to show guilty. Who knew you were scanning her?

Any why are you gunning for me? It looks a lot like scum trying to deflect attention by proffering up an alternative. Me accusing you isn't a very good reason (although I think El Barto disagrees ).

Have you revealed what Sooh was doing the last two nights, or did you forget about that part of your abilities (again)?

[Montmorency]

Such basic WIFOM. Die now.

[Montmorency]

Monty, if you're innocent you need to explain a few things, not least why you 'expected' the Sooh result to show guilty. Who knew you were scanning her?

Any why are you gunning for me? It looks a lot like scum trying to deflect attention by proffering up an alternative. Me accusing you isn't a very good reason (although I think El Barto disagrees ).

Have you revealed what Sooh was doing the last two nights, or did you forget about that part of your abilities (again)?

You can try reading the entire day's posts.

Stop asking questions just to look like you're asking questions.

[Myrddraal]

I just did. I don't see anything that answers those questions which isn't addressed above.

I did see one thing though that slipped by me last time. You say you got a 'ho-hum' result on Sooh and Edse. What you said at the time was that Edse was definitively scum, and had been attacking Visor (and belatedly added Kage).

So what do you mean by 'ho-hum'?

(And what do you mean by WIFOM? Seriously I have no idea)

Edit: You didn't mention what Sooh did the last two nights.

[Ituralde]

This is getting more and more confusing: Any more roles care to step up?

So Montmorency claims to be a scanner.
ATPG claims to have had a role, not really sure what kind of role, and he's dead. So at least the Mafia must have known.

So assuming Montmorency is a real scanner: The Mafia decided that the role of ATPG was more dangerous to them than Montmorency and decided to go after ATPG. If somebody has more information on ATPGs role that would warrant this, I'd be interested to hear this. Montmorency not being attacked does not really add to his credibility, on first sight, but it might be intentional misdirection by the Mafia.

That's my initial outlook, before the shenanigans of today. Sooh was apparently scanned by Montmorency to be Mafia. But now there's the claim of a Spoofer being around. This person would be either GH or Myrddraal, I guess? They would have the ability to change scan results, if they know that someone else (Montmorency) is scanning the same target. The false scan result would lead to wrong lynches by town. Most telling, Montmorency doesn't even believe in his own ability.

I have three working theories to base my lynch on:
1. Montmorency is a scanner, his scan results are reliable: Sooh is Mafia. So was edse before.
2. Montmorency is a scanner, there is a scan spoofer. His scan results are not reliable. Sooh is not Mafia. Someone is spoofing Montmorency. The suspicion lies on GH and Myrddraal. They both have good arguments against it. Myrddraal has known about Kage and he lived until Night 3 (or 4?). GH has been inactive at first and has become more and more active. For this scenario to be true, Myrddraal and GH would have had to play for the long game from day one. They could have kept Kage around to further their alibi. We don't know how the Mafia actually found out about Kages role, so it might have been Myrddraal all along, who betrayed him. The town trusts them and we now play along to their tune to our demise. Very risky, very clever.
3. Montomrency is not a scanner. He just made that up last turn, so he wouldn't get lynched. Worked like a charm too.

In case 1 there is only Sooh left as the last Mafia. In case 2 and 3 there's still two Mafia out there. They only put one into the writeup last night, to foster a false sense of security among the town. Maybe the second Mafia was busy spoofing scan results, who knows?

So if case 1 is right, we kill Sooh and the game is over. Town wins, everybody is happy. Case 2 or 3 there's still Mafia on the loose, we only have partial leads, everything is a confusing mess.

So Vote: Sooh.

Eliminate the easy option. I'll revisit the other options if there's another day phase. It will be confusing and I'm not looking forward to it.

[Montmorency]

I just did. I don't see anything that answers those questions which isn't addressed above.

Well of course not, if you're not asking for the sake of the answer.

I did not expect Sooh to scan guilty, I expected her scanning guilty to be supportive of a scenario in which I was being tricked.

GH and Pizza knew that Sooh would be scanned. I don't doubt that you did as well.

Edit: You didn't mention what Sooh did the last two nights.

Edit: You didn't mention what Sooh did the last two nights.

And you wonder? You can't even keep track of what my powers are supposed to be!

N6, Sooh scanned as attacking Pizza, and as having attacked Visor the night before.

If you're paying attention, this should be tautological. It was clear from the beginning of the discussion.

[Myrddraal]

I didn't think that ATPG had claimed a role? Where did that come from?

Your option 3 is wide of the mark. Monty has been claiming scanner right from the start.

[Myrddraal]

Monty, it's quite clear from the write-up that that didn't happen. You want us to believe that someone can not only spoof your scans, but can fabricate a back-story of night actions to go with it?

At what stage in the night do you think this happens? What would happen if you submitted you scan orders 5 minutes before the end of the night?

Yes, these questions are rhetorical. They illustrate that your story doesn't stand up to anything more than a casual examination.

[Montmorency]

That would be, uh, the whole point of contention.

If you heroically assume that the Mafia have no special abilities in particular when killing, then you must admit that there could easily be 3 Mafia alive, and they would have to be among myself, Zack, Barto, and Nightbringer.

Come up with an actual narrative.

[Ituralde]

I didn't think that ATPG had claimed a role? Where did that come from?

Your option 3 is wide of the mark. Monty has been claiming scanner right from the start.

Reading between the lines I picked up a role vibe from atpg and it make sense that he was attacked then. Rereading the thread a second time, I can't point my finger to any precise quote, so I might have been off there.

Montmorency only revealed in thread last round, but it's good to know that he revealed to others beforehand. You said that you , GH and ATPG knew about him?



Off-Topic: You can disable the tapatalk signature under the settings Tab. There's a signature option and you can choose 'no signature' there.

[Sooh]

How do you mean? You're not vanilla?

No, I'm exactly vanilla. That's why it's odd that I should be seen as guilty, but as mentioned here there are several instances where there might be someone manipulating the scan results. I know Myrdraal has been in the center of things since the beginning, so I will

Unvote

Vote: Myrdraal

[Myrddraal]

I don't get it... what is it that makes me a good lynch candidate? You might disagree with my arguments regarding Monty, but how does that translate into a vote for me?

[Myrddraal]

The tally as I make it:

Voter	Votee
Autolycus			Myrddraal	Sooh	ElBarto	Montmorency
El Barto	Myrddraal		5	2	2	1
GeneralHankerchief	Sooh
Golden1Knight	El Barto
Ituralde	Sooh
Johnhughtom
Landlubber	Myrddraal
Montmorency	Myrddraal
Myddraal	Montmorency
Nightbringer	Myrddraal
Sooh	Myrddraal
Zack	El Barto

I have highlighted in bold the names of those who were not present at the townie protection of Visor, for your consideration.

I'm still a little bit taken aback by this turn of events.

Monty has been caught out with incorrect scans. I've listed half a dozen other examples of suspicious behaviour on his part, about half of which he has addressed, mostly by dismissing them with no counter-argument other than to blame me. His defence is to accuse his accuser for all of his own inconsistencies.

[GeneralHankerchief]

I am going to laugh so hard when the game ends and it gets revealed that both of you were town.

[Montmorency]

His defence is to accuse his accuser for all of his own inconsistencies.

Precisely.

Monty has been caught out with incorrect scans.

Incorrect? PIS.

[Myrddraal]

Incorrect? PIS.

I'm sorry, I don't speak acronym.

I am going to laugh so hard when the game ends and it gets revealed that both of you were town.

I wish I could believe it, but I can't reconcile it with the evidence in front of my eyes.

[Sooh]

I don't get it... what is it that makes me a good lynch candidate? You might disagree with my arguments regarding Monty, but how does that translate into a vote for me?

I don't disagree with your points, but as I see it if Monty is the scanner then somebody who knows who he's scanning has to be the one who gives the misreadings about said person as well. I figured that maybe eliminating those people would give correct scans. Of course then that would mean we would have to believe that mafia wouldn't kill Monty once he has outlived his purpose as someone who can be used to frame innocents. It's a tough call. Monty could also be mafia from where I stand, but I think perhaps this is a better way to go in terms of eliminating mafia.

[Myrddraal]

Right, so you accept that in order for there to be a 'forger' role in this game, they would need to forge both alignment and previous night actions (as this is what Monty claims to get, although he regularly forgets about the past night actions bit). To do this the forger would need to know who was being targeted for a scan by Monty.

It follows that it must be someone who knows who Monty is going to scan. For the record, the only scan I have had any idea about in advance is last-nights' scan (GH told me he had asked Monty to scan you).

When Monty 'outed' DC as scum, he correctly stated that he had done nothing that night. So the person doing the forgery would have to have correctly guessed that dcmort would be inactive that night. Incidentally, if there is a serial killer still alive out there who attacked Monty, you must have known at that stage that Monty was making it up.

It's all very very far fetched. Surely it's much more likely that Monty is leading the town by the nose?

I don't really doubt that Monty has some tracking ability (it would have been incredibly bold to fabricate a tracker role from day 1 without something to back it up). But with both edse and Sooh, his 'results' have been contradicted by the in-game write-ups. I suggest that he is a Mafia aligned or independent (non-town) tracker with his own agenda, making up results when it suits him, and getting caught-out in the process.
@Montmorency, I'm still curious about the 'ho-hum' result you say you got for both Sooh and Edse, despite being very clear and specific at the time of your Edse accusation.