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  1. #1
    Sovereign Oppressor Member TIE Fighter Shooter Champion, Turkey Shoot Champion, Juggler Champion Kralizec's Avatar
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    Default Re: Russian military jet downed by Turkey

    I have half a hunch that Turkey intentionally caused this incident, or at least didn't do anything to avoid it.

    Most western countries would like to see Assad gone, but consider ISIS to be the bigger priority. For Turkey it's the other way around: they don't particulary like ISIS but think it's paramount to get rid of Assad.

    Western countries were once unequivocal that Assad can't stay, but the last few weeks it looked like they would consider budging to make cooperation with Russia possible.

    Right now however cooperation between Russia and the western countries seems unthinkable, unless Turkey and Russia manage to straighten this out diplomaticly.

    EDIT: I'm not saying that shooting down the plane itself was wrong. I don't know much about international rules of warfare, but even if the Turkish story is true and they were within their rights this chain of events seems rather convenient for them.
    Last edited by Kralizec; 11-26-2015 at 19:44.

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    Misanthropos Member I of the Storm's Avatar
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    Default Re: Russian military jet downed by Turkey

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralizec View Post
    ...

    Right now however cooperation between Russia and the western countries seems unthinkable, unless Turkey and Russia manage to straighten this out diplomaticly.

    ...
    I'm not so sure about that. I think it's within the realm of possibilities that the western allies and Russia come to an understanding about a limited cooperation in the middle east regardless of Turkey's attitude. Not very probable atm, but possible.

  3. #3
    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Russian military jet downed by Turkey

    [QUOTE=Philippus Flavius Homovallumus;2053672372]The jet in question was a Su-24, the same used by the Syrian Air Force. .

    Didn't know that. It appears Syria has around 20 of them. Still, the odds are they knew it was Russian.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralizec View Post
    I have half a hunch that Turkey intentionally caused this incident, or at least didn't do anything to avoid it.

    Most western countries would like to see Assad gone, but consider ISIS to be the bigger priority. For Turkey it's the other way around: they don't particulary like ISIS but think it's paramount to get rid of Assad.

    Western countries were once unequivocal that Assad can't stay, but the last few weeks it looked like they would consider budging to make cooperation with Russia possible.

    Right now however cooperation between Russia and the western countries seems unthinkable, unless Turkey and Russia manage to straighten this out diplomaticly.

    EDIT: I'm not saying that shooting down the plane itself was wrong. I don't know much about international rules of warfare, but even if the Turkish story is true and they were within their rights this chain of events seems rather convenient for them.
    All Turkish actions so far have shown that they actually help ISIS. They bombed Kurds who are actively fighting IS. Masses of trucks from IS controlled territory go into Turkey and back with little to no control. They help Turkmens who are allied to Al Nusra...

    IS actually helps Turkey achieve all its goals - kill as many Kurds as possible, defeat the Shiites in Syria, break it up and incorporate Turkmen territory into Turkey.


    What is interesting is the total lack of outrage over the fate of the Russian pilot. No one from the west dared to criticize Turkmens or Turkey. If that was a French, British or American pilot gunned down by, let's say, pro Russian rebels in Ukraine, there would all kinds of hell breaking loose.

    I'm getting sick and tired of the double standards. Charlie Hebdo can easily pull off a page like this after the airliner was shot down in Egypt
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    Would be interesting if they drew people and buildings getting blown away in Paris attacks, maybe with the caption "Re-modelling of Paris landmarks". If any non-western satirical magazine pulled off something like that, everyone from the cartoonist to the head of state of that country would be labelled a terrorist.

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    Default Re: Russian military jet downed by Turkey

    What is interesting is the total lack of outrage over the fate of the Russian pilot. No one from the west dared to criticize Turkmens or Turkey. If that was a French, British or American pilot gunned down by, let's say, pro Russian rebels in Ukraine, there would all kinds of hell breaking loose.

    I'm getting sick and tired of the double standards.
    That's not a double standard.

    Would be interesting if they drew people and buildings getting blown away in Paris attacks, maybe with the caption "Re-modelling of Paris landmarks". If any non-western satirical magazine pulled off something like that, everyone from the cartoonist to the head of state of that country would be labelled a terrorist.
    Oh, please.
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  5. #5
    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Russian military jet downed by Turkey

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    That's not a double standard.
    No? Okay.
    And that is supposedly similar? One is mocking dead people falling from the sky, and the other is having champagne defiantly? Try harder.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Russian military jet downed by Turkey

    Try harder to do what, exactly? You yourself don't seem to be clear on what you are talking about, besides of course the predetermined conclusion that there is some double standard.
    Vitiate Man.

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  7. #7
    Senior Member Senior Member Brenus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Russian military jet downed by Turkey

    "Would be interesting if they drew people and buildings getting blown away in Paris attacks," They did.
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    Please, do not mix all terrorists. There are terrorists and terrorists.
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    I always wanted to see Paris...

    About Champagne:
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    Do you read the title of the magazine?

    One more for the road:
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    Hard enough?

    "If any non-western satirical magazine pulled off something like that, everyone from the cartoonist to the head of state of that country would be labelled a terrorist." Cheap shot, as show with cartoons above.
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    Last edited by Brenus; 11-26-2015 at 22:58.
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire.

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    "You did, sarge", said Polly." You said you were in few last stands."
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  8. #8
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Russian military jet downed by Turkey

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenus View Post
    "If any non-western satirical magazine pulled off something like that, everyone from the cartoonist to the head of state of that country would be labelled a terrorist." Cheap shot, as show with cartoons above.
    Not that I can read French very well, but they all make fun of the terrorists it seems, the one Sarmatian linked made fun of the Russians, who were the victims in that case...
    Not comparable at all, comparable would be someone making a joke with the people who jumped out of the burning twin towers...

    Oh, also:
    https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.n...c6b9935eca5560
    Last edited by Husar; 11-27-2015 at 06:16.


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  9. #9
    Senior Member Senior Member Brenus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Russian military jet downed by Turkey

    "I haven't seen a single picture that is remotely comparable to making fun of people who died in a plane crash." Because there is none, but nor in the caricature you linked. The text says "Daesh, the Russian air force intensified their bombing", with a terrorist under the fall of plane's parts and one passenger (still alive).
    So, the bombing of the Russian airliner was a "answer" to the Russian bombing. Nobody can deny this, as no one can deny that the Paris' slaughter is an answer to France foreign policy.
    But, this said, where the caricature is making fun of people who die? I think the one with the champagne going out by the bullet holes much more "offensive" to potential victims than parts of plane falling on the head of a terrorist (which can as well be seen as a warning, see Putin's speech).
    And it was, or it was as I read it, a kind of warning. Asymmetric war is not fun, so, really, do we think they will stay under bombing without reacting where and when they can? And actually, it is a question that the French are asking their several leaders who started bombing other countries thinking, perhaps, it was not war...
    In order to "read" this kind of cartoon, you first have to stop to think it is to be for fun. It is for politic. You are not supposed to laugh, but to think.
    As I explained before, we, French, grow-up with this kind of caricatures. We grow-up with comics which we call "bandes dessinées" and some are all but comic. Do you really think that Asterix is really about the roman conquest of Gaul?
    This is what is translated as "comic" in English
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    1st World war
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    This one is about the Triangle Trade, Slavery
    So, when you see a french caricature, you have first to remember it is not for comic effect, and for French.

    "I personally feel ashamed now to have been Charlie back then." They are dead, so... The killers had a point? (I know, that is a cheap shot as well).
    Last edited by Brenus; 11-27-2015 at 08:06.
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire.

    "I've been in few famous last stands, lad, and they're butcher shops. That's what Blouse's leading you into, mark my words. What'll you lot do then? We've had a few scuffles, but that's not war. Think you'll be man enough to stand, when the metal meets the meat?"
    "You did, sarge", said Polly." You said you were in few last stands."
    "Yeah, lad. But I was holding the metal"
    Sergeant Major Jackrum 10th Light Foot Infantery Regiment "Inns-and-Out"

  10. #10
    Strategist and Storyteller Senior Member Myth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Russian military jet downed by Turkey

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenus View Post
    "I haven't seen a single picture that is remotely comparable to making fun of people who died in a plane crash." Because there is none, but nor in the caricature you linked. The text says "Daesh, the Russian air force intensified their bombing", with a terrorist under the fall of plane's parts and one passenger (still alive).
    So, the bombing of the Russian airliner was a "answer" to the Russian bombing. Nobody can deny this, as no one can deny that the Paris' slaughter is an answer to France foreign policy.
    But, this said, where the caricature is making fun of people who die? I think the one with the champagne going out by the bullet holes much more "offensive" to potential victims than parts of plane falling on the head of a terrorist (which can as well be seen as a warning, see Putin's speech).
    And it was, or it was as I read it, a kind of warning. Asymmetric war is not fun, so, really, do we think they will stay under bombing without reacting where and when they can? And actually, it is a question that the French are asking their several leaders who started bombing other countries thinking, perhaps, it was not war...
    In order to "read" this kind of cartoon, you first have to stop to think it is to be for fun. It is for politic. You are not supposed to laugh, but to think.
    As I explained before, we, French, grow-up with this kind of caricatures. We grow-up with comics which we call "bandes dessinées" and some are all but comic. Do you really think that Asterix is really about the roman conquest of Gaul?
    This is what is translated as "comic" in English
    Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	17014
    1st World war
    Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	17015
    This one is about the Triangle Trade, Slavery
    So, when you see a french caricature, you have first to remember it is not for comic effect, and for French.

    "I personally feel ashamed now to have been Charlie back then." They are dead, so... The killers had a point? (I know, that is a cheap shot as well).
    Wait, Asterix is politicized? I only watched it as a kid. Now if you tell me that Pif et Hercule is not about a dog and a cat i'd be really flabberghasted.

    In other news, Erdogan stated that if a Turkish jet was shot down by Russian SAM sites when flying over Syria it would be considered an act of aggression and that there would be "appropriate responce" that would "not be negotiated".

    This guy really wants a KGB assassin to send him to Allah and his 72 virgins.
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    These are: (1) The Moral Law; (2) Heaven; (3) Earth;
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  11. #11
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Russian military jet downed by Turkey

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenus View Post
    Because there is none, but nor in the caricature you linked. The text says "Daesh, the Russian air force intensified their bombing", with a terrorist under the fall of plane's parts and one passenger (still alive).
    So, the bombing of the Russian airliner was a "answer" to the Russian bombing. Nobody can deny this, as no one can deny that the Paris' slaughter is an answer to France foreign policy.
    But, this said, where the caricature is making fun of people who die? I think the one with the champagne going out by the bullet holes much more "offensive" to potential victims than parts of plane falling on the head of a terrorist (which can as well be seen as a warning, see Putin's speech).
    And it was, or it was as I read it, a kind of warning. Asymmetric war is not fun, so, really, do we think they will stay under bombing without reacting where and when they can? And actually, it is a question that the French are asking their several leaders who started bombing other countries thinking, perhaps, it was not war...
    Eh, maybe French comics are entirely different from comics in the rest of the world, but to me it showed a plane falling out of the sky and sarcastically called the falling parts and people "intensified bombing" as though the Russians blew up their own plane over terrorist territory in order to hit the terrorists with the debris. That seems lime a cheap shot at the stereotype that Russians don't care about the lives of their own people and so on and it diminishes the tragedy of the event.
    The Paris cartoons in comparison glorify the French while the plane-cartoon looks very anti-Russian with the whole stereotype thing.
    Or in other words, the plane cartoon makes fun of the Russians (victims) while the Paris cartoons make fun of the terrorists (perpetrators).
    Your whole interpretation seems more like you are looking for excuses, or have they made one yet where the French bomb ISIS with the dead bodies of the Paris attacks?


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  12. #12
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Russian military jet downed by Turkey

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralizec View Post
    I have half a hunch that Turkey intentionally caused this incident, or at least didn't do anything to avoid it.

    Most western countries would like to see Assad gone, but consider ISIS to be the bigger priority. For Turkey it's the other way around: they don't particulary like ISIS but think it's paramount to get rid of Assad.

    Western countries were once unequivocal that Assad can't stay, but the last few weeks it looked like they would consider budging to make cooperation with Russia possible.

    Right now however cooperation between Russia and the western countries seems unthinkable, unless Turkey and Russia manage to straighten this out diplomaticly.

    EDIT: I'm not saying that shooting down the plane itself was wrong. I don't know much about international rules of warfare, but even if the Turkish story is true and they were within their rights this chain of events seems rather convenient for them.

    Complitated, what is claimed to be Turkish air-territory isn't recognised by the Nato at all. Turkey isn't making friends.

  13. #13
    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Russian military jet downed by Turkey

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    Try harder to do what, exactly? You yourself don't seem to be clear on what you are talking about, besides of course the predetermined conclusion that there is some double standard.


    Quote Originally Posted by Brenus View Post

    Hard enough?

    Cheap shot.
    I haven't seen a single picture that is remotely comparable to making fun of people who died in a plane crash.

    All those caricatures have a very clear satirical message. The champagne one says terrorists can't frighten us. That was their objective and they failed. Terrorists and terrorist is a clear allusion to situation in Syria. I always wanted to see Paris one is self explanatory.

    That in itself is not much of a problem. There will always be insensitive idiots. What is concerning is the lack of reaction. Just like there wasn't for the gunning down of a pilot. During the first gulf war, two Italian pilots were caught by the Iraqis. They appeared on Iraqi tv, slightly swollen up, and apologized to Iraqi people. There was massive outrage about the inhuman treatment. They were released later, shaken and with a few bruises, but no serious harm.

    You may feel it is a cheap shot, but I personally feel ashamed now to have been Charlie back then.

  14. #14
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Russian military jet downed by Turkey

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmatian View Post
    I haven't seen a single picture that is remotely comparable to making fun of people who died in a plane crash.

    All those caricatures have a very clear satirical message. The champagne one says terrorists can't frighten us. That was their objective and they failed. Terrorists and terrorist is a clear allusion to situation in Syria. I always wanted to see Paris one is self explanatory.

    That in itself is not much of a problem. There will always be insensitive idiots. What is concerning is the lack of reaction. Just like there wasn't for the gunning down of a pilot. During the first gulf war, two Italian pilots were caught by the Iraqis. They appeared on Iraqi tv, slightly swollen up, and apologized to Iraqi people. There was massive outrage about the inhuman treatment. They were released later, shaken and with a few bruises, but no serious harm.

    You may feel it is a cheap shot, but I personally feel ashamed now to have been Charlie back then.
    I don't really like them either but you have the right to find it offensive. I don't mind it all that much when satire is pretty brutal.

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