Terror Attack: 130 Dead in Paris

[Fisherking]

Our MODERN ethics is what you say it is. But the initial attempts to interpret the Holy Texts literally resulted in numerous similar assaults from Christians. Since then Christian ethics has evolved through a series of changes to reach the current liberal stage. Evidently, Muslim world has been reluctant to such sweeping changes which eventually amount to divorcing people from reading too much into religious texts and distancing religious practices from real life. So the ultimate goal of those who wish to change the current lay of things should be secularizing Muslim countries as much as possible.

Islam is particularly difficult to reform. The books are sacred and not to be altered. Quran, Sunnah, or Hadith. Can anyone name any reforms in the last 1400 years?

Trying to reform it is blaspheme. You become an apostate or worse and usually results in the reformer being executed or murdered.

[Husar]

Islam is particularly difficult to reform. The books are sacred and not to be altered. Quran, Sunnah, or Hadith. Can anyone name any reforms in the last 1400 years?

Trying to reform it is blaspheme. You become an apostate or worse and usually results in the reformer being executed or murdered.

What of this is not true for Christianity?
Catholics don't go to heaven because they pray to people other than Jesus (saints).

[Greyblades]

Is this bait? What idiot told you that praying to Saints is blasphemy to Catholics?

Ignoring that, all of what you said is indeed false for Modern Christianity, It's been reformed and re-reformed for over a thousand years and even the Irish have mostly stopped killing each other over apostasy.

[Fisherking]

What of this is not true for Christianity?
Catholics don't go to heaven because they pray to people other than Jesus (saints).

Some Christians may hold some outlandish beliefs but they do not come from the text of that religion in the same way.

Most of their reforms have been to extra biblical beliefs instituted by church or state leaders.

It is not explicitly mandated as an article of faith. Christians may proselytise but nothing mandates it at sword point. Just as nothing in Jewish or Christian theology requires it to be the only religion on earth.

[Gilrandir]

Islam is particularly difficult to reform. The books are sacred and not to be altered. Quran, Sunnah, or Hadith. Can anyone name any reforms in the last 1400 years?

Trying to reform it is blaspheme. You become an apostate or worse and usually results in the reformer being executed or murdered.

Yet Christianity went through reforms during which there were plenty of people shouting bloody murder and sticking labels of heresy and blasphemy at large.

But I suggested not reforming islam (foreseeing the difficulty thereof), but gradual reducing the role of religion in muslim countries.

Though, to tell the truth, both solutions are very long-term perspectives.

[Gilrandir]

It is not explicitly mandated as an article of faith. Christians may proselytise but nothing mandates it at sword point.

Don't even start it. How many sword-points did Christians dip into those that were of other faiths or those of their own faith who were deemed wrong in interpreting some of its tenets?

Just as nothing in Jewish or Christian theology requires it to be the only religion on earth.

The Ten Commandments
20 And God spoke all these words:

2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

3 “You shall have no other gods before me.

4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

[Greyblades]

That doesn't say that Christianity/Judaism cannot tolerate the existence of other religions, it says they cant tolerate any of it's own members following a second religion simultaneously.

[Fisherking]

@Gilrandir , I am not here to defend Christianity or any other religion. All I am telling you is that no other religion I know of is at war with every other religion on earth.

So far as I know, that distinction belongs to Islam and only to Islam.

[Fragony]

As it seems it was what was to expected it to be, seems like lone wolves though

[Husar]

Is this bait? What idiot told you that praying to Saints is blasphemy to Catholics?

Only the bible, but I guess it would be unfair to judge Christians by adherance to the bible if we cn do it for Muslims.
http://www.gotquestions.org/prayer-saints-Mary.html

Ignoring that, all of what you said is indeed false for Modern Christianity, It's been reformed and re-reformed for over a thousand years and even the Irish have mostly stopped killing each other over apostasy.

The thing is that all the reformers who reform things which are wrong according to the book are false prophets according to the same book. We can discuss about taking things literally and how the book came to be the book now, but then there are also imams who say the Quran is not always to be taken literally and then it comes down to whether you find them or the terrorists more trustworthy...
Or in other words, whose interpretation you, as an atheist, would rather support in public and which path would support your goals more...
Is it surprising that many youngsters think the terrorists are right when they read Fragony and many others saying theirs is the one true interpretation of Islam? I wouldn't be surprised if the recruiters collect these gems and go "see, even the kuffar know deep in their hearts that we are right!" This kind of attitude may even hamper any attempts at reform. And this is not coming from nowhere, I've heard this kind of argument in many Christian churches.

Some Christians may hold some outlandish beliefs but they do not come from the text of that religion in the same way.

"in the same way"? That's just a very vague distinction, as I said there are even islamist scholars who think the Quran is not always meant literally but then a Nigel Falanga or a similar type comes along and tell them that the terrorists are indeed right and every true muslim should indeed follow the terrorists....
But hey, it's Merkel who is doing the real harm.

Most of their reforms have been to extra biblical beliefs instituted by church or state leaders.

And if we think that was a good thing, why do we not support the same thing in Islam?
Although I would grant Chritianity that the message of Jesus does not exactly need many alterations to be peaceful, it was more that the "reforms" led to all the wrong interpretations. But I assume we are talking about practical application here and how we can improve things. And I think the whole "Islam is inherently out to kill us, the others are not true muslims and the only solution is to turn them all into atheists" that seems to be the argument of many, is not exactly a productive or workable solution.
It's just a blame game without a real solution.

It is not explicitly mandated as an article of faith. Christians may proselytise but nothing mandates it at sword point. Just as nothing in Jewish or Christian theology requires it to be the only religion on earth.

There are plenty of Muslims who believe they can live alongside other religions, as was the case in previous caliphates. But as I said, the solution is apparently to tell everyone that even we Christians and Atheists believe that they should slaughter us all to be good muslims...

[Greyblades]

As it seems it was what was to expected it to be, seems like lone wolves though

Not according to the evening standard. A couple of farook's facebook buddies are on the fbi watch list. Add to that a report from a neighbour of an unusual gathering of middle eastern men at his residence in the weeks before the attack and the lone wolf angle becomes less likely.

[Fragony]

Probably, but with things like this it is us that we should be worried about, screw political correctnes of multiciculturalists everybody with half a brain knows that it has everything to do with islam.

[Idaho]

@Idaho, I don’t know if you have tried an objective view of the situation. You seem to think it is a matter of religiosity or racism. The biggest factor is one you don’t seem to have examined.

Here is the rub. Islam and western ideals of liberty are incompatible. All religions have some elements that could be called repressive, to one extent or another but there are grounds for accommodation and a sprit of live and let live, except with Islam. None of the others have as a tenant of their faith that all others must be converted, subjugated, or slain. Others have proven a willingness to live under a secular rule. The other religions do not call for forced conversion.

Many Muslims have also submitted themselves to live in secular countries but in doing so they violate the rules of their faith. The world view of the faith is that the world is divided into two. The lands of the faith and the lands of war.

Our ethics forbid us from assaults on the beliefs of others, while the faith of Islam demands it.
How are we logically to treat this threat to our values? Do we submit to eventual theocracy or do we resist?

You are being melodramatic. Sensational news stories about American or French civilians justifying "something be done" is matched by no interest in the mindlessness of the proposed reaction. This is a fringe group, and a dangerous one. But it's still fringe.

They have absolutely no intention of engaging politically with us. The hyperbole has been used in the past to say that Communists and other westernised oppositional organisations want to destroy us, but they always had a political organisation that maintained a voice in the (sort of) mainstream. Not so Islamism, for whom our very being is anathema to them. And while I count myself as a liberal where such norms are reciprocated, I see no point in tolerating people who game the system to destroy our liberal democracy.

How have we engaged politically with them? In Falluja for example.

[Greyblades]

Only the bible, but I guess it would be unfair to judge Christians by adherance to the bible if we can do it for Muslims.
http://www.gotquestions.org/prayer-saints-Mary.html

So, using an intermediary is pointless according to the bible, but I must have missed the part saying the attempt is blasphemy.

The thing is that all the reformers who reform things which are wrong according to the book are false prophets according to the same book. We can discuss about taking things literally and how the book came to be the book now, but then there are also imams who say the Quran is not always to be taken literally and then it comes down to whether you find them or the terrorists more trustworthy...

The point I made is that christians dont generally punish or kill apostates anymore, while muslims generally do when they can get away with it.

Or in other words, whose interpretation you, as an atheist, would rather support in public and which path would support your goals more...

I'm Catholic.

[Husar]

everybody with half a brain knows that it has everything to do with islam.

No, it's buddhism!

So, using an intermediary is pointless according to the bible, but I must have missed the part saying the attempt blasphemy.

http://www.justforcatholics.org/a134.htm

St. Bernard writes: "It is true, of course, that Jesus Christ is the only Mediator of justice between human beings and God, and that, by virtue of His own merits, He can obtain for us, and wants to obtain, pardon and grace as He promised. But in Christ human beings cannot help recognizing and fearing the Divine Majesty, which belongs to Him as God. So it was necessary to appoint another Advocate, to whom we can have recourse with less fear and with greater confidence. And this second Advocate is Mary" (Quoted in 'The Glories of Mary' by St Alphonsus Liguori). What a distortion of the goodness of God! God is ever near His children, for His Son had bridged the infinite gap which had previously separated us. Contrary to the blasphemous words of man, the Bible assures us that in Christ "we have boldness and access with confidence through faith in Him" (Ephesians 3:12).

It is basically based on false teachings and following a false prophet won't help you a lot.
The bible says you have to check the words of the people you follow against the word of god to find the false prophets. Therefore following the teachings of the Catholic Church is following a false prohpet and as we all know these are sent by the devil to keep people from going to heaven...

The point I made is that christians dont generally punish or kill apostates anymore, while muslims generally do when they can get away with it.

And the solution is to tell them that it's the only way to be a good muslim?
What about the ones who do not kill apostates?
Or are you saying every muslim secretly has a strong desire to kill apostates?

I'm Catholic.

I expected that to happen, doesn't change the point though.

[AE Bravo]

Can anyone name any reforms in the last 1400 years?

There are more revivalist movements than reform. That's how the uneducated and oppressed react, Islam is just a backdrop to that frustration.

Chicken egg argument. What kind of fanatic could a middle eastern man be if he weren't a Muslim fanatic? There's nothing else. It may have "everything to do with Islam" but the Islam part could just as easily be replaced with some other strong regional impression if there actually was another one.

[Greyblades]

Chicken egg argument. What kind of fanatic could a middle eastern man be if he weren't a Muslim fanatic?

Jewish.

Sardony aside, this becomes moot once non middle eastern muslims start seeking the 72 virgins, like our farook here.
Incidentally, his wife turns out to have been in IS.

[Husar]

Jewish.

Sardony aside, this becomes moot once non middle eastern muslims start seeking the 72 virgins, like our farook here.
Incidentally, his wife turns out to have been in IS.

Sorry, thread moving too fast, I edited my last reply with a reply to you in order to not doublepost...

[AE Bravo]

Jewish.

Sardony aside, this becomes moot once non middle eastern muslims start seeking the 72 virgins, like our farook here.
Incidentally, his wife turns out to have been in IS.

Farook is a middle eastern Muslim, second generation. He was either influenced by his first generation fanatic friends or his Pakistani heritage.

[Greyblades]

And the third/fourth generation British teens running away to IS training camps?

It is basically based on false teachings and following a false prophet won't help you a lot.
The bible says you have to check the words of the people you follow against the word of god to find the false prophets. Therefore following the teachings of the Catholic Church is following a false prohpet and as we all know these are sent by the devil to keep people from going to heaven...

Still failing to see how praying to the saints for guidance and support as blasphemy.

And the solution is to tell them that it's the only way to be a good muslim?
What about the ones who do not kill apostates?
Or are you saying every muslim secretly has a strong desire to kill apostates?

Solution? I have none, merely an observation that the pre reformation church was very similar to present day islam (I'm sure that PVC will show up to contest that) and that church did not become what it is today without centuries of rebellions against orthodoxy that brought such war, ruin and rape to the christian nations involved that it make the prospect of fighting another one so unpalatable as to end the great inter-faith wars for good.

I hope that any upcoming Muslim reformation is less bloody, but going by the current trend towards violence and vitriol against critics from even the moderate majority of muslims(as emphasised by the repeated outcry whenever someone so much as looks at islam with a hard eye) I doubt it will be.

I expected that to happen, doesn't change the point though.

Which was?

[AE Bravo]

The thing about confronting Islamic orthodoxy is that it doesn't need to be bloody.

A reform would only require three things:

1) Removing Muhammad's semi-divine status
2) Discarding Sharia, enabling coexistence
3) Delegitimizing holy war , I know easier said than done unlike the other two

Which in no way exposes Islam to accusations of perversion or necessarily leads to conflict. These are very simple things that Muslims can easily accept.

[Husar]

Still failing to see how praying to the saints for guidance and support as blasphemy.

I said they don't go to heaven, where is the blasphemy coming from?

I hope that any upcoming Muslim reformation is less bloody, but going by the current trend towards violence and vitriol against critics from even the moderate majority of muslims(as emphasised by the repeated outcry whenever someone so much as looks at islam with a hard eye) I doubt it will be.

I haven't seen much of that. A lot who try the hard-eye looking end up being wrong and quite a few others don't get an outcry.

Which was?

That it is counter-productive to say that the terrorists' interpretation of Islam is the only true one.

[Pannonian]

That it is counter-productive to say that the terrorists' interpretation of Islam is the only true one.

Theirs is the most strident one. There are some interpretations of their culture that can mesh with the general western secular culture. But once that culture turns to faith, alarm bells ring, and interpretations of Islamic faith that fit into the general western secular culture are so quiet as to be unnoticeable. AFAIK PVC (or whatever he's called nowadays) believes in a Christian faith, but I feel no discomfort in mocking his faith and generally asserting my secular beliefs. His Christian beliefs, and most Christian beliefs in the UK, mesh seamlessly into the general western secular culture.

[Pannonian]

Jewish.

Sardony aside, this becomes moot once non middle eastern muslims start seeking the 72 virgins, like our farook here.
Incidentally, his wife turns out to have been in IS.

Anyone who's been to these hotspots shouldn't be allowed back.

[Montmorency]

The thing about confronting Islamic orthodoxy is that it doesn't need to be bloody.

A reform would only require three things:

1) Removing Muhammad's semi-divine status
2) Discarding Sharia, enabling coexistence
3) Delegitimizing holy war , I know easier said than done unlike the other two

Which in no way exposes Islam to accusations of perversion or necessarily leads to conflict. These are very simple things that Muslims can easily accept.

What do you think of Islam El-Beheiry?

[Fragony]

of course it's

There are more revivalist movements than reform. That's how the uneducated and oppressed react, Islam is just a backdrop to that frustration.

Chicken egg argument. What kind of fanatic could a middle eastern man be if he weren't a Muslim fanatic? There's nothing else. It may have "everything to do with Islam" but the Islam part could just as easily be replaced with some other strong regional impression if there actually was another one.

Of course it's a chicken and egg thing, but why should we make it our problem.. Refugees leave sorry world behind, colonists bring their sorry world with them.

[Greyblades]

I said they don't go to heaven, where is the blasphemy coming from?

Slight mix up, regardless, still failing to see how praying to the saints for guidance and support gets you banned from heaven.

[AE Bravo]

What do you think of Islam El-Beheiry?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Azhar_University
http://www.ibtimes.com/sisi-islam-re...ercuts-1947460

Maintaining the position and authority of the institution is thus a major priority for Sisi. The leader’s so-called religious revolution is “part and parcel of a broader and more traditional statist project,” said Michael Hanna, a senior fellow at the Century Foundation, in an interview with the Christian Science Monitor. “This is why both religious expression and religious immoderation are to be tightly controlled, as they are understood as potential sources of instability that could disrupt public order.”

Sisi gonna Sisi. There are many of him but his mistake was that he was televised.

[Husar]

Theirs is the most strident one. There are some interpretations of their culture that can mesh with the general western secular culture. But once that culture turns to faith, alarm bells ring, and interpretations of Islamic faith that fit into the general western secular culture are so quiet as to be unnoticeable. AFAIK PVC (or whatever he's called nowadays) believes in a Christian faith, but I feel no discomfort in mocking his faith and generally asserting my secular beliefs. His Christian beliefs, and most Christian beliefs in the UK, mesh seamlessly into the general western secular culture.

And is that surprising? As I will say to Fragony below, you cannot expect people to have a 180° change of mind. And I assume that part of the reason they teach their kids not to adopt too much of our culture is that they are often not very welcome here (even before terrorism was a thing). And giving up a religion is only easy for atheists, everybody else is afraid of ending up in a sea of fire or so. I can also live with people who may not agree with me as long as they don't turn disagreement into violence.
As for being quiet and unnoticeable, wouldn't be the first time that a vocal minority drowns out the rest, that's more or less a fact of life.

Of course it's a chicken and egg thing, but why should we make it our problem.. Refugees leave sorry world behind, colonists bring their sorry world with them.

Man Fragony, I'm fully with you on the don't let them impose their values on us, but the way you talk about it it usually sounds like you see a few pictures with five meanies and then you immediately want to throw all the families out with the dishwasher. When I hear of families that came here as refugees and built mafia structures, threatening judges and police etc., I wish the government would drive tanks through their homes and send them back to where they came from tomorrow. But I would never extend that to all refugees or think we can expect them to have a 180° change of mind just because they had to flee a place.

Slight mix up, regardless, still failing to see how praying to the saints for guidance and support gets you banned from heaven.

Because the only way there leads through Jesus and not through saints. By praying to them you turn them into little side-gods but the first of the ten commandments says you shall have no gods next to God.
Include all the idolatry and stuff and it really gets a bit much to the point where some catholics worship them almost more than God.
Of course not all catholics are the same, some may even be better catholics than others.

[Pannonian]

And is that surprising? As I will say to Fragony below, you cannot expect people to have a 180° change of mind. And I assume that part of the reason they teach their kids not to adopt too much of our culture is that they are often not very welcome here (even before terrorism was a thing). And giving up a religion is only easy for atheists, everybody else is afraid of ending up in a sea of fire or so. I can also live with people who may not agree with me as long as they don't turn disagreement into violence.
As for being quiet and unnoticeable, wouldn't be the first time that a vocal minority drowns out the rest, that's more or less a fact of life.

Then it's the duty of the supposed majority to assert themselves. The principal foundation of western secular society is to treat others as you would be treated. One aspect of this is that fanatics and any kind are unwelcome. In the past it used to be Jehovah's witnesses who were shunned lest your marginal interest should encourage them to take up more of your time. But at least they were peaceful, and respected your rights as an individual. See my point about Christians generally meshing well with the general secular society. Islamists respect no individual bar their own, and will happily exploit their host liberal society to widen their voice, and there is a far, far disproportionate tendency for their like to turn to violence. I try not to impose on anyone, except to help those in need of help where I see it. Why should I feel guilty about their so called less than warm welcomes, and why should I accommodate their subsequent turn to violence?

And as for giving up religion being a hard thing for these second generationers: from childhood they were brought up to be British. Why was this easier to give up than a religion that they had to actively, to the point of leaving this country, pursue? IIRC at least one of these militants disgusted his father, someone who actually moved to this country and regarded himself as British through and through. His father disowned him as a traitor to the country that raised him.