IMMIGRATION thread

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

That is literally a cop out. You’re shifting responsibility to neglected sectors of the community.

No, I'm throwing responsibility back onto the Police. It's their job to enforce the law and, more importantly, kepp the peace.

Thugs live on fear and fear mongering, especially ones that are an existential threat to the country.

How do you stop thugs? You create en environment in which they cannot operate. Enforcing the law is the cornerstone of the modern state, it's what allows me to walk down an unlit alley at night.

I’ve said this before all this does is result in a tweeked out Muslim version of NWA that will follow the ol European strategy of harboring hatred until that pent up aggression blows up in your face. It’s easy to say “more foot patrols” but that is unlikely to prevent a social movement with grievance narratives based on fact. You can accuse Muslims all you want of viewing everyone else as “sub-human” but there is a great impact on these communities after they see the UK assisting in the disintegration of Iraq, Libya, Syria, and now in Yemen supporting the coalition forces. Whether it's your ancestral homeland or just seeing people sharing your beliefs dying, there are big reasons for the state of victimhood since they are marginalized communities.

The fact that we are bombing IS in Syria is no excuse for someone to refuse to obey the law in the UK. We do not marginalise Muslims in this country, they marginalise themselves by not learning English (despite money set aside to help them) and living in ghettoes.

People should be protected by the law.

And to be protected by the law you must obey it - which means you must fear it.

I fear the law - I fear prison - it's why I go out of my way not to break it rather than just doing what I think is right.

[Beskar]

I fear the law - I fear prison - it's why I go out of my way not to break it rather than just doing what I think is right.

Don't sell yourself short, PFH, I am sure that isn't the only reason stopping you in not breaking the law.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Don't sell yourself short, PFH, I am sure that isn't the only reason stopping you in not breaking the law.

Of course not, but it's the thing that will always stop me. That's the point - the Law is something you follow all the time, and it applies to everyone. About 90% of the time (at least) I would automatically follow the Law but in certain circumstances I might act differently but for the Law.

For example - If someone abused a child or raped a friend of mine I'm fairly sure I could kill them and live with it - and if it was my own child I almost certainly would. However, the Law says that if I follow through with that I go to gaol, separated from my family.

The Law is about enforcing the same standards of behaviours on everyone. If there are parts of a country where the writ of the Law runs thin then that must be corrected first.

[Pannonian]

Of course not, but it's the thing that will always stop me. That's the point - the Law is something you follow all the time, and it applies to everyone. About 90% of the time (at least) I would automatically follow the Law but in certain circumstances I might act differently but for the Law.

For example - If someone abused a child or raped a friend of mine I'm fairly sure I could kill them and live with it - and if it was my own child I almost certainly would. However, the Law says that if I follow through with that I go to gaol, separated from my family.

The Law is about enforcing the same standards of behaviours on everyone. If there are parts of a country where the writ of the Law runs thin then that must be corrected first.

Also, the acceptance across England, since Henry Tudor at least, that there is but one state in England, whose rules are independent of any holy book. I have no great desire to turn the clock back 500+ years.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Also, the acceptance across England, since Henry Tudor at least, that there is but one state in England, whose rules are independent of any holy book. I have no great desire to turn the clock back 500+ years.

Oh no, that's nonsense.

Our laws are based on the Protestant interpretation of morality - it's only in the last two centuries that Catholics and Jews have become full citizens.

Modern Britain is a product of Queen Victoria's government, who re-wrote history to give us a myth we were always like this.

Hell, 350 year ago we were basically a theocratic "Republic" much like modern Iran.

[I of the Storm]

I vaguely remember the incident. Had a media presence of about a week back then but not a major issue. AFAIK the prosecutors wanted to go for unauthorized use of uniforms and violations of assembly laws, none of which have been found valid. Argumentation was along the lines of: "hey, christian groups are doing basically the same thing sometimes". Which is correct, technically they didn't do anything else than admonish people to abstain from drinking an gambling, which is not a crime.

The vests and the "police" word were provocative, though.

Nevertheless, I think it's wiser to not make a major issue out of this. Fine them for misdemeanour or a minor breach of the law and that's it. If you press major charges against singular occurences like that, you give them major importance. Acquittal = minor importance. That's the court's logic I suspect.
If that would become a widespread issue or if they'd incite to violence, now that would be a completely different issue. But as of now, all they did was telling people "hey, drinking and gambling is bad for you. Why don't you come to our mosque next friday instead?" and wearing silly vests. Once.

[Idaho]

Oh no, that's nonsense.

Our laws are based on the Protestant interpretation of morality - it's only in the last two centuries that Catholics and Jews have become full citizens.

Modern Britain is a product of Queen Victoria's government, who re-wrote history to give us a myth we were always like this.

Hell, 350 year ago we were basically a theocratic "Republic" much like modern Iran.

You are a marvel PVC. You put a load of nonsense further up, then you post something incisive like this. It's like the lucid moments of a drunk.

[Idaho]

Social deprivation should be addressed. But we shouldn't ignore the more immediate problem of the known strategy of ISIS to exploit such conditions to plan and execute terrorist attacks. It's happened already, and there is every indication that they're planning more, and no indication that they're stopping. To say that it's the general fault of society is to foster inertia and do nothing, which is to maintain the environment that these enemies (and they're deserving of that description) rely on. Social deprivation is a threat to society, but to deny the specific threat of Islamists in these conditions is to allow them free rein in the immediate term, which is what they want and what we don't want.

The danger with your priorities is that you relegate social deprivation and attack those people that ISIS profile - the socially deprived. Further alienating them and strengthening the hand of extremist recruiters.

[Pannonian]

The danger with your priorities is that you relegate social deprivation and attack those people that ISIS profile - the socially deprived. Further alienating them and strengthening the hand of extremist recruiters.

Why do we need to allow ISIS a free rein whilst dealing with social deprivation? It's not like we can't afford to do both at the same time. In any case, we can deal with extremist recruiters by blocking the import of foreign clerics and blocking the return of madrassees. Homegrown Muslims who don't look abroad for illumination don't tend to be a problem, as they're just as British as anyone else. It's those who follow foreign clerics and those who decide to study in religious schools abroad (or worse) who cause problems.

[Fragony]

Yeah not being invited for your birthday is quit a kick in the nuts

[Idaho]

Why do we need to allow ISIS a free rein whilst dealing with social deprivation? It's not like we can't afford to do both at the same time. In any case, we can deal with extremist recruiters by blocking the import of foreign clerics and blocking the return of madrassees. Homegrown Muslims who don't look abroad for illumination don't tend to be a problem, as they're just as British as anyone else. It's those who follow foreign clerics and those who decide to study in religious schools abroad (or worse) who cause problems.

Why do they look abroad? Why do they alienated from Europe society? Ask Frag and he'll tell you it's because Islam itself demands it. But that just doesn't stack up. Yes there are a lot of cultural issues going on - but that's only a small piece of the puzzle. Let's also look at employment rates, education outcomes, etc.

[Fragony]

I can go with that as long if islam isn't put out of the equation

[CrossLOPER]

I wasnt actually expecting someone to deflect that hard. It is rather sad really.

Learn to post sources that are not written by backwoods shack rapists.

[CrossLOPER]

When I went to Georgia Tech, we would have these a-hole fanatics who would reserve the outdoor speech space near the culture center nearly every month. I am pretty sure they were Westborough Baptist Church members. Down the road at Georgia State, they would get in people's faces and yell at how you are going to hell, and have you charged for assault if you pushed them away.

Sounds like these Morality Police were a lot more polite.

[Fisherking]

Learn to post sources that are not written by backwoods shack rapists.

It is his source of data. If you want to discuss and argue, logic dictates that you can not disavow a source simply on your perceptions and predigest.

Ranting and raving about sources is not just childish, it is also a logical fallacy known as cherry picking. Then there is that ad hominem again.

Where is the proof of your accusation?

[Fisherking]

When I went to Georgia Tech, we would have these a-hole fanatics who would reserve the outdoor speech space near the culture center nearly every month. I am pretty sure they were Westborough Baptist Church members. Down the road at Georgia State, they would get in people's faces and yell at how you are going to hell, and have you charged for assault if you pushed them away.

Sounds like these Morality Police were a lot more polite.

I have seen elsewhere, were Sharia patrols in Germany were accused of pushing and verbally abusing some passers by. I don't know if it was this group or others. Obviously they were not charged with it on the night of their arrest.

[Pannonian]

Why do they look abroad? Why do they alienated from Europe society? Ask Frag and he'll tell you it's because Islam itself demands it. But that just doesn't stack up. Yes there are a lot of cultural issues going on - but that's only a small piece of the puzzle. Let's also look at employment rates, education outcomes, etc.

Then do it as a two pronged solution. We'll address the social deprivation issues, which Muslims supposedly disproportionately suffer from, that they have in common with other cultures. And in return, we demand loyalty to the British idea. If we address the social issues, and it's an ongoing thing, and they continue to look abroad for an identity, they've had their chance and blown it. And let's not forget, the state has already spent goodness knows how much in raising them to adulthood, in common with all other children in the country. They've already had a boon. If we take one more step for them, and it's still not enough to satisfy them, they're not worth the effort.

There are lots of people who suffer from wide gaps between a society built for the rich and the situation that they're in. But no other groups take such a militant stance as Islamists, who take out their ire on others who might legitimately have complaints. Why should they get a free pass, unlike every other group in the UK?

[Greyblades]

Learn to post sources that are not written by backwoods shack rapists.

[Greyblades]

I realize that talking about no go zones is a futile effort as noone can agree what constitutes one and until it is officially recognised, like it is in sweden, it is impossible to establish their existance as immutable fact, despite several indicators that such places are developing.
A subset of society withdrawing from the rest is not new or unique, behavior like harrassing those who tresspass in thier "muslim areas" (as seen here and here ) would not seem out of place if done by US gang-bangers or Mexican cartels.

It is the extent that the muslims communities of britain go to segregate themselves that is the defining and most worrying part of the issue; going to the extent of attempting to replace the english common law through establishing sharia courts (Documented here and here) and there have been some attempts to enforce it upon others through threats and the occasional attack.

The replacement of the local law with an older extremely archaic systems and imposition of said law upon both its members and those who intrude upon thier territory is a mode of behavior completely unseen in all other British demographics native and immigrant.

[CrossLOPER]

Ranting and raving about sources is not just childish, it is also a logical fallacy known as cherry picking.

Irony.

This is an upgrade from your initial post. Well done.

[drone]

When I went to Georgia Tech, we would have these a-hole fanatics who would reserve the outdoor speech space near the culture center nearly every month. I am pretty sure they were Westborough Baptist Church members. Down the road at Georgia State, they would get in people's faces and yell at how you are going to hell, and have you charged for assault if you pushed them away.

That's been going on at Tech forever. It was Preacher Jim in my time, he would berate the females for getting educated instead of married and pregnant, and the males for replacing God for science. His crew would never get in your face though, as much as he got heckled. We always thought it was an initiation rite for whatever church he was in. Sounds like the GState crew is a little more in line with Westboro (who aren't really a church but a law firm).

[Greyblades]

Im still convinced it was a 4chan prank.

[Idaho]

I have seen elsewhere, were Sharia patrols in Germany were accused of pushing and verbally abusing some passers by. I don't know if it was this group or others. Obviously they were not charged with it on the night of their arrest.

You paint Germans as these peaceable, gentle folk, easily intimidated Try s**t like that in many parts of Germany and you are going to get a serious kicking.

[Fisherking]

You paint Germans as these peaceable, gentle folk, easily intimidated Try s**t like that in many parts of Germany and you are going to get a serious kicking.

Expert on Germany are you? When was the last time you were here?

[Idaho]

Expert on Germany are you? When was the last time you were here?

This time last year. Was there a couple of times in 2014, 3 times in 2013.

[Fisherking]

Then all I can say is that you mistake their outspokenness for confrontationalism. They have a very developed sense of proper comportment and adherence to societal rules. Any reply to their admonishments are totally unexpected on their part. However, admonishing them for what they see as perfectly acceptable behaviour or physically touching them, let-alone shoving them, would be seen as outrageous.

Unless you spend all your time in the red-light districts of Berlin, Frankfurt, Hamburg, Duisburg, Cologne or Düsseldorf you are not likely to become a crime victim.

If you have ever encountered physically aggressive Germans you are hanging out in the wrong part of town.

[Gilrandir]

is it xenophobic to discuss a problem supported by facts?

I've been called racist for being able to know a Mongol from a European by sight, so ...

[Gilrandir]

If you have ever encountered physically aggressive Germans you are hanging out in the wrong part of town.

... or supporting a wrong football team.

[Fisherking]

I've been called racist for being able to know a Mongol from a European by sight, so ...

Then that is just a naked attempt to redefine meanings. And then only to suite their agenda.

It is also very hypocritical of them. They insist on enforcing a supposed standard of tolerance on people by being extremely intolerant and applying labels on them using their own arbitrary definitions.

It is an obvious fallacy. Perhaps, also a cognitive disorder.

[Fisherking]

... or supporting a wrong football team.

lol the incidence of that in Germany is very much lower than in several other European Nations.