IMMIGRATION thread

[Fragony]

Then stop saying people are literally insane if they believe immigrants (or at least a part of them) should be given refugee. Did it ever occur to you that she just might have thought this through and arrived at a different conclusion?

No, and I am in the good company of just about everybody in Europe. Thinking is not the same thing as feeling. She should have gotten a pet to pet. Even religiously insane narcists like petting pets, could have saved a lot of trouble if she could have channeled her condition on petting a pet. It's comforting to pet a pet.

[AE Bravo]

I might be completely wrong here but IMO inviting hundreds of thousands of outsiders to stay in Europe all at once, people who come from a vastly different culture and upbringing and many of whom perhaps don't even like Europe and might even consider the actions of the Western nations the root of their misfortunes (and might harbour dangerous extremists amongst them), is stupid.

Than the people should stop indulging in hate speech and pressure their governments for once in their lives for screwing them over. The big guns running Europe lured the troubles of the world right onto their peoples' doorsteps and getting off scot-free at the expense of all parties. Western nations chose initial stupidity in handling foreign affairs and now they've forced themselves to plunge into further stupidity. I sincerely wish the best of luck but absolutely zero sympathy from me.

It is their responsibility now, for sure thanks to their governments.

[Sarmatian]

See Brenus pointing to overthrowing the Shah as one of the root causes of the current mess in Syria. Apparently a native people having had their own choice of government for 40 years, developing their strength to the point that they're now asserting their power in their region, is still the helpless victim of our actions 40 years ago, and their current actions in conducting a proxy war with another regional power is chiefly our fault. Apparently the natives are incapable of independent thought or responsibility, as everything is down to us.

So, if a country A sponsors a violent coup in country B, how long should country A be held at least partly responsible for the damage in country B in your opinion? A month, a year, not at all?

Or, if country A helps arm, train and encourage rebels in country B, is there any responsibility at least during that process?

It's already been decided that the west, and especially the Anglo-Americans, are already morally wrong in any given situation, so why should we bother to change our minds? As nothing we do will ever change that inescapable fact, as shown by your dismissal of any credit that the locals ever give the British (it doesn't change the bigger picture etc). Not doing anything on our part doesn't make us wronger, as we're already morally wrong, but on the good side, it's cheaper for us.

This is getting really weird.

First, I'd like to point out that America is not in the EU. Then, I'd like to point out that Britain /= EU, it's just a small part of it.
After that, who said US and UK were always morally wrong? Then, why do you require the crowd adoration before you make a morally right choice? Morally right choices are usually unpopular.

Furthermore, if you really believe that people around the world should shout "All hail glorious Britain, as she took upon herself to civilize the world from completely selfless motives". I don't care how patriotic you are, if you believe British (or insert country) imperialism was not first and foremost about serving British (or insert country) interests, you really have a problem.

No, and I am in the good company of just about everybody in Europe. Thinking is not the same thing as feeling. She should have gotten a pet to pet. Even religiously insane narcists like petting pets, could have saved a lot of trouble if she could have channeled her condition on petting a pet.

Really? I'd say you aren't in the company of just about everybody on this board.

[Fragony]

http://www.geenstijl.nl/mt/archieven....html#comments Schengen-zone since the childless muttis invitation

only pic counts, yeah that's official

I guess everybody still takes her serious, she can furiously scream or hollowed eyed mutter with a stupid smile on her face that she das schaft but this is what is actually real

[Sarmatian]

What is actually real?

[Fragony]

What is actually real?

All EU countries closing their borders because Germany is expecting 3.6 million migrants at about 2020. That plum workhorse expects others to fix it for her but nobody wants to, and is going to, what you see there on that map is countries that are back to controlling their borders, these millions are just about all on the shoulders of the Germans, who can't house them, can't provide anything but basic needs, and most of all can't provide them with any prospects. Promises have been made that can't reasonably be kept and nobody is going to like that. I assume you mean well, so do I, what kind of life are these people going to have? They would be better off in the place they came from, get away for a while where it's safe and go back and rebuild.

[Brenus]

“So it's our fault”: It is the result of our politic. So, whose fault is it? We impose the leaders we choose on them; we help these strong men (dictators only they are on the other side) in selling them weapons, training of their secret police, and help them in repressing any leftist/unionists opposition, leaving the field open to the Priests. So who is responsible for the choice to help the Shah, Mubarak and others?

“our fault for causing another regime in Iraq” Yes. It was our choice to divide Iraq following the religious fracture. We ignore the deadly struggle between Shia and Sunnites. We ignore the fact that Persia and Arabs are fighting for centuries. We impose the structures of the new Iraqi government (Constitution), so don’t blame the Iraqi for the result of your choices, as far as I remember, their opinion was not requested.

“It's not the fault of the people who are currently acting in Syria, Iraq, Iran and whatnot, since they're incapable of acting by themselves, but are always and will forever be the blameless victims of western decisions. Nor is it the fault of the Saudis and Turks and whoever else have directly funded and continue to directly fund ISIS.” You should re-read what I wrote. I think you got it wrong.

“In short: there's a 10 year gap in your chronology of events.” In short, I summarized it. The problem is the representation of the USA/UK victory was enough humiliating to brake a national pride by itself. You can’t ask to defend a country when you destroy the country. The insurrection could have been controlled if the politico-religious-ethnic background better understood, or, perhaps, just not ignored. I don’t believe the US and UK didn’t have enough specialists who could and probably did warn them about the situation.

“Iraqi Kurdistan is actually one of the few governments in the region that Turkey is friendly” You having a laugh! I was in Iraq when the Turkish bombers attacked the valley just of the other side or the mountain and helped in evacuating the injured…

“1) decades of Baathist rule which actively exploited ethnic tensions to justify its authority
2) meddling of neighbouring states, essentially this whole quagmire is a proxy war between Qatar and Saudi Arabia on one hand and Iran on the other” I agree, and I will had food shortage due to climate changes so internal migrations Assad’s regime couldn’t help, growing unemployment, social crisis…

“Brenus' point was to establish a connection between the rise of ISIS and the decision to dismantle the army 10 years earlier” No, it was not my point. My point was and is, and the army being only one process, the dismantling of Iraq as country (administration, privatisation of the natural resources, private mercenaries, etc) de facto broke the little national unity of the country. The rise of ISIL (ISIS) was favoured by it.

[Husar]

All EU countries closing their borders because Germany is expecting 3.6 million migrants at about 2020. That plum workhorse expects others to fix it for her but nobody wants to, and is going to, what you see there on that map is countries that are back to controlling their borders, these millions are just about all on the shoulders of the Germans, who can't house them, can't provide anything but basic needs, and most of all can't provide them with any prospects. Promises have been made that can't reasonably be kept and nobody is going to like that. I assume you mean well, so do I, what kind of life are these people going to have? They would be better off in the place they came from, get away for a while where it's safe and go back and rebuild.

This is not entirely wrong what you say here. Given that people are housed in sports places and other housing that was barely scraped together, it is not entirely unreasonable to say that without a major effort and investment, we cannot take many more people without having them freeze in the cold in winter. Not to forget that housing prices and rent were going up due to scarcity even before all these people came, definitely an issue the government needs to address. What we could do is look for the companies and investors who wanted more influx of workers or have in the past released German workers to hire immigrants in unusually large numbers (yes, this actually does happen sometimes) and then we could just have the government levy and extra-tax from them to have a lot of housing built. You want something, you pay for it. It's just too bad that most of their money is probably stowed away in tax-havens.

[Sarmatian]

All EU countries closing their borders because Germany is expecting 3.6 million migrants at about 2020. That plum workhorse expects others to fix it for her but nobody wants to, and is going to, what you see there on that map is countries that are back to controlling their borders, these millions are just about all on the shoulders of the Germans, who can't house them, can't provide anything but basic needs, and most of all can't provide them with any prospects. Promises have been made that can't reasonably be kept and nobody is going to like that. I assume you mean well, so do I, what kind of life are these people going to have? They would be better off in the place they came from, get away for a while where it's safe and go back and rebuild.

3.6 million migrants by 2020 is about 0.7 million per year. The lowest number of migrants that came to Germany in the last cca. 25 years is 0.66 million in 2006. The highest number was more than 1.5 million in 1992, while the average is over 1 million per year.

Lebanon is housing 1.2 million refugees at the moment. For comparison sake, Lebanon is 35 times smaller than Germany in area and 18 times smaller than Germany in population.

The fact that countries are manning the borders doesn't mean they're closed and refugees move even though that map shows red lines.

The doom and gloom theories are quite far fetched, and like in most cases, whoever wrote that article is too stupid or lazy (or has an agenda) to put the numbers they see into proper context.

[Snowhobbit]

3.6 million migrants by 2020 is about 0.7 million per year. The lowest number of migrants that came to Germany in the last cca. 25 years is 0.66 million in 2006. The highest number was more than 1.5 million in 1992, while the average is over 1 million per year.

Lebanon is housing 1.2 million refugees at the moment. For comparison sake, Lebanon is 35 times smaller than Germany in area and 18 times smaller than Germany in population.

The fact that countries are manning the borders doesn't mean they're closed and refugees move even though that map shows red lines.

The doom and gloom theories are quite far fetched, and like in most cases, whoever wrote that article is too stupid or lazy (or has an agenda) to put the numbers they see into proper context.

For the sake of intellectual honesty, is there any difference in how Lebanon and Germany treat their refugees? How many refugee tent towns are there in Germany? How many of those refugees in Lebanon have a work permit and a path to citizenship? How much does a refugee cost in Lebanon (for upkeep) as compared to how much the German government spends? And can we really compare the movement of EU citizens to the refugee stream?