Org Promotion

[edyzmedieval]

For the most part I think we should focus on how we can get all of those viewers to come here, stay and post, which is what we are not really doing at this moment.

There's a lot of viewers, a lot of lurkers... but not many posters. Which is what hampers the Org.

Question - how can we invite CA to visit this place again?

[Husar]

In so many words… That statement and the numbers it presents are severely misleading, deceptive even. I will show and explain some of the how and why that is… I’ll use my own stuff - Redux - as that is the only thing I can get solid statistics on. There are no proof that the massive discrepancy it shows will go across the board - but - it is highly unlikely to be confined or limited to Redux only. I find that hard to believe and very unrealistic. Now, here are the actual and accurate stats on Redux’s top 5 threads in 2016, and its views/visitors, in reality…

Top 5 visited RX-threads: 2016… Thus far...

1. MTW-Redux general 17095 views
2. Redux Debug-Area... 7512 views
3. Redux Install Emergency! 2448 views
4. Redux & W7... 1916 views
5. Redux Battle & Tactics 1907 views

That should make a grand total of: 30878 views

So the reality is that Redux have some 30878 views in 2016 so far, and that would place it 4th most popular place at the Org to visit (according to that staff-list), this measuring ONLY the top 5 threads there. I have not even included the 1079 views officially listed… Overall, I find very hard to believe that Redux is the 4th most popular place to visit on this site. - “…, this is what people who visit the Org are accessing (since Jan 2016):" The hell it is… The screens in spoiler below puts that staff-claim to ridiculous shame…

The list was of threads posted in 2016, not threads that exist in 2016...

What would be the point of counting visits from 2008 etc. to see which sections are currently being visited the most?

Therother already explained that it is an approximation because the forum does not differentiate views by year, so if you have a thread from 2008 that has 17000 views, it could be that 10000 are from 2008 and 200 from 2016 or it could be the other way around. That's why he only included threads posted in 2016 because they cannot possibly have views from 2008 since vB does not support time travel for threads in the current version.

Before you call other people stupid or liars you may want to check whether the reality you like to talk about is actually real...

[edyzmedieval]

Let us not delve into such things, let us focus on how we can improve the Org.

I reiterate my question - how can we bring back CA over here? I understood that they came, they left, came back, and left again - but it is important, at least as a first step, to have announcements posted by CA over here as well.

[Hooahguy]

I would love to figure out how to get CA back here and have them stay. I think the biggest factor for them leaving after we got them back was that the person who was our liaison with them went to a different company so the connection was severed. Then CA never bothered to connect with us again because we just were not on their radar as a large fansite anymore. When I pop on over to the TW reddit page, most of the community engagement by CA occurs within the discussions (usually CA-related discussions but thats to be expected I guess). So I think to get CA back we need to have active discussions going on. That would be the first step in my opinion.

[edyzmedieval]

Correct, and I agree with the points you presented above, Hooah.

What I would like to come up with is the fact that simply having them around, at least posting a thread once a month, or posting at least their announcements over here, would bring back discussion as well and make the Org more active.

It takes - 3 minutes? - to post a thread. Their simple presence would help.

[Hooahguy]

That is certainly true, but unfortunately we cannot force CA to do anything. I will try to reach out again and see what I can do.

[Crandar]

For the most part I think we should focus on how we can get all of those viewers to come here, stay and post, which is what we are not really doing at this moment.

I think that most of these guys are spammer wannabes who try to log in and advertise their stuff.

I would love to figure out how to get CA back here and have them stay. I think the biggest factor for them leaving after we got them back was that the person who was our liaison with them went to a different company so the connection was severed. Then CA never bothered to connect with us again because we just were not on their radar as a large fansite anymore. When I pop on over to the TW reddit page, most of the community engagement by CA occurs within the discussions (usually CA-related discussions but thats to be expected I guess). So I think to get CA back we need to have active discussions going on. That would be the first step in my opinion.

Why CA left the first time? Anyway, CA first and foremost needs traffic, they even stopped posting in twc anymore, so I don't think .org has much of a chance. I think only reddit is visited by CA reps. CA posts in other forums, like .org or obscure french strategy sites only when they have a big announcement to make, like the official presentation of a new title. Probably they also cut down their resources, Will and Trish are gone and the new guys will focus on other media, like youtube.

[edyzmedieval]

There's still a considerable amount of people who lurk daily, all spammers aside. Getting them to log on and start posting and asking questions, and perhaps join mods, would definitely help both sides.

[Axalon]

The list was of threads posted in 2016, not threads that exist in 2016...

Missing the point… It was not presented as such (see post:25) and that is the first point (out of several) I made in my previous post. It was not presented as such and I reacted to that very circumstance because its hardly honest to present it as something completely different – in this case as general, representative and solid statistics. It is clearly nothing of the sort, and thus it (the post) is/was obviously misleading folks, by definition. Besides, even if it had been presented as you would have liked – as 2016-threads only, and only the views that such threads generates – it still struggles with serious relevancy-issues regardless. After all, 2016-threads are hardly alone in generating traffic/views on a site in 2016 (even this one) – and as long as that is a fact, ignoring everything else beyond that limitation hardly makes the results of such an approach any more relevant or representative, now does it? It actually makes it less relevant and representative, if anything. One would think this is obvious. The “2016-threads only” method will thus only yield highly skewed, misleading and flat out impractical results due to the fact. It clearly won’t represent reality well enough somehow, and thus it becomes irrelevant as it has then lost its basic function and meaning here. "Partial reality" don't do us much good here, now does it?

What would be the point of counting visits from 2008 etc. to see which sections are currently being visited the most?

I don’t know… I have not suggested such thing (see my previous post) – you did (right here). Feel free to triple check that all day if you want too, its mentioned about zilch times in all my posts here.

Therother already explained that it is an approximation because the forum does not differentiate views by year, so if you have a thread from 2008 that has 17000 views, it could be that 10000 are from 2008 and 200 from 2016 or it could be the other way around. That's why he only included threads posted in 2016 because they cannot possibly have views from 2008 since vB does not support time travel for threads in the current version.

Is this a bad joke? I am well aware of what and when Therother have explained his intentions and motives here. Its thanks to him that I got a chance to actually evaluate the staff traffic-list seriously in the first place. Regardless, you post as if the screens I forwarded does not exist or that any reference to these never existed in my post (they are fully visible in their entirety, using the Chrome-browser for instance). You have thus decided to actively ignore the very material that actually proves and makes another significant point I was making here. The screens of post: 30 are crystal clear in their numbers and in the statistics they deliver. They leave no doubts about views generated in 2016 what so ever (up to 16th sep) in that specific area of the site, or about the enormous discrepancy that they (the screens) illustrate compared with the presented traffic/views-list by staff. Once you actually bother to look at those screens you can see that as well. It’s a question of basic maths. They even have timestamps, 1st Jan and 16th Sep, 2016. It can hardly get any much clearer, or more obvious, then that. The numbers are in contrast actually accurate for this specific case (Redux) and (its) area - and you can triple check that all day if you want too.

If the staff don’t have such solid statistics for the site, then they don't have solid statistics for the site, as simple as that – act accordingly and seriously about it. Don't conjure up some half-ass "solution" that won't work anyways (as explained above) and then try to sell that to us as reliable statistics to compensate for the void of actual solid statistics here, because that is both dishonest and stupid. And we all know it. Either you learn from this obvious screw up and improve on your practices so it won't happen again - or you continue to screw up some more on this note, again and again - and you(/staff) will look needlessly ridiculous and unserious in the process. Understand?

Before you call other people stupid or liars you may want to check whether the reality you like to talk about is actually real...

First of all, at least try to be accurate for a change... Secondly, don’t try to be witty here, it doesn't agree with you. Thirdly, its hardly my fault if people decide to act stupid or dishonest - very especially so while representing the site in general (on these boards, regardless of context). But, it certainly is my (and everyone else's) fault if I (/we) don’t point that out whenever it does happen in any official or formal capacity. Assuming here, that I (/we) actually do want to help and improve the site and the staff that serves it somehow. Of course, I (/we) could do nothing and pretend its raining (as most people seem to do here), but do I then really help the site? Nope, I (/we) do not…

Lastly, you are hardly in a position to tell me about handling reality, much unlike yourself I have actually dealt with what you have posted here (all of it) and not some junk I made up in your name. The fact that you have done this (here) as a member of staff certainly isn’t doing much for the image of this site, or its staff at large, or you personally for that matter. In short, its annoying, its rude, its stupid and it’s a waste of time for all (yup, you too).

Get my drift?

- A

[Axalon]

For the most part I think we should focus on how we can get all of those viewers to come here, stay and post, which is what we are not really doing at this moment.

Not entirely true… I certainly tried thus far to enable/advocate a drastic change on the index as that clearly is major player in that equation. After all, the index is the first thing a visitor sees, and its the very first thing (s)he will react too as well and it will be a major factor for sticking around as well, I would imagine. As long as staff refuse to change the index, and it continues to look like this, (s)he will soon leave for TWC most likely, as that index simply outclass the Org in how it deals with all TW-games (except for MTW1 and STW1). Thus the current index basically disables this site to actually compete effectively because of it - due to the generally inferior treatment and coverage of TW-games on the index (as is).

Let me illustrate this clearly... We get a big fat monitor… On it, we open up a page of the Org-index and a page of the TWC-index on the monitor – side by side. Now we call in “visitor X” who has no prior relation to either site, and who’s fave TW-game happens to be - say MTW2 (or whatever) - and have her seated in front of the monitor. Now we ask her “which of these two places will you go? To get your average MTW2-info and fix? …The site that offers its own dedicated section for this game, and some 5 sub-sections, directly visible on the index (the TWC)? Or will you go for the site with no such dedicated section for this game and 1 sub-section for it, directly visible on the index (the Org)? Which one would you prefer to go to? You have can’t have both.” …At a minimum, 9 out of 10 times it will be TWC for the win. BECAUSE of the index and how it is designed. That is why the index is important and that is why it must change into something that actually can compete with other sites (like the TWC). That is why each TW-game need its own sections. As long as this staff and site-management refuse to do that index-change, this site will not be able to compete effectively – that means less active and interested visitors here, thus posts by extension. As simple as that.

We have now had and tried this (damned) index for some 4+ years and it has done little else but consistently damaged this site ever since. People have obviously left this place because of it and many other reasons. The index (and its TW-coverage) has too change. If not the index is changed, essentially all other stuff proposed here will probably soon lose much/most of its intended effect and meaning.

There's a lot of viewers, a lot of lurkers... but not many posters. Which is what hampers the Org.

Agreed...

Question - how can we invite CA to visit this place again?

Forget CA... Those guys are essentially irrelevant these days anyhow (much by their own handiwork and policies), and they obviously don't care about the TW-communities as they probably don't believe there are much money or value in it - had they actually cared about this place somehow, then they would have showed that, long time ago. And they have not. So bothering with the CA is a dead end (most likely). Don't waste precious resources or manpower on that, surely it can be used to better things then that. Just saying...

- A

[Husar]

Get my drift?

Sorry, no.
Should have made yourself clearer instead of intentionally misleading me I guess.

[edyzmedieval]

Bringing CA back would help us in the way that, although it might not bring back a ton of members, it's important to be there, because inevitably people will be interested.

I do propose contacting CA with a specific task - have their community team do a Rally Point on the community.

[Axalon]

Bringing CA back would help us in the way that, although it might not bring back a ton of members, it's important to be there, because inevitably people will be interested. I do propose contacting CA with a specific task - have their community team do a Rally Point on the community.

Do what you must... However I get the general feeling that many folks are probably more interested in the TW-games themselves, rather then keeping tabs on the latest marketing-ploy of CA... Maybe its just me...


***

Sorry, no. Should have made yourself clearer instead of intentionally misleading me I guess.

Again...

...don’t try to be witty here, it doesn't agree with you.

- A

[edyzmedieval]

The idea behind it is that given the attention brought on towards the communities by CA, this will in turn generate traffic and encourage more engagement within the community. This is the core idea in the end - making sure that there's more engagement within the community, both from CA with us, and from us with CA.

[edyzmedieval]

Floating an idea here - how about getting some content, such as TW videos, from Org members to display on the front page? I keep seeing the videos on the side but some fresh content would be a good idea.

Or suggest a couple of videos, let's say 20, and rotate them on the side, keeping things fresh.

[Axalon]

Floating an idea here - how about getting some content, such as TW videos, from Org members to display on the front page? I keep seeing the videos on the side but some fresh content would be a good idea. Or suggest a couple of videos, let's say 20, and rotate them on the side, keeping things fresh.

What difference will any of that make as long as the index remains unchanged? Everything start with index, as I have already pointed out. Its the first thing a visitor sees. Its the first thing a visitor reacts to. Its the first thing that encourages her to leave this place. Assuming here that she is into TW-games at all (...then again visiting a place calling it self "totalwar.org" is kind of a give away - imagine that). How hard can it be to fathom?

Why do this administration insist on keeping this poor and awful index?
It makes zero sense, it is not rational, yet it remains. Why?

- A

[ReluctantSamurai]

Just for information, this is what people who visit the Org are accessing (since Jan 2016):

Backroom (Political) 148770

A sad indictment, IMHO, on what the Org has become...a local "bar & grill" to visit and trade BS on the latest news

Might be an idea to have off-topic forums on the top, then hosted mods, then expanded game list. Seems silly the most active areas are near the bottom than at the top.

Putting the "bar & grill" at the top would only feed more into what is already happening. Most gaming sites that I frequent (though not all), place off-topic discussions at or near the bottom of the index.

Let me illustrate this clearly... We get a big fat monitor… On it, we open up a page of the Org-index and a page of the TWC-index on the monitor – side by side. Now we call in “visitor X” who has no prior relation to either site, and who’s fave TW-game happens to be - say MTW2 (or whatever) - and have her seated in front of the monitor. Now we ask her “which of these two places will you go? To get your average MTW2-info and fix? …The site that offers its own dedicated section for this game, and some 5 sub-sections, directly visible on the index (the TWC)? Or will you go for the site with no such dedicated section for this game and 1 sub-section for it, directly visible on the index (the Org)? Which one would you prefer to go to?

Agree with this. Everything related to a particular TW game should be in one place. That means general discussion, guides, mods, technical information....everything. I don't want to have to visit several sections to find what I want. As an example: MTW. There's parts of the game in Historical Total War Titles, Hosted Mods, and Hosted Mods (Archive). Someone looking for Redux or Samurai Warlords will only visit Hosted Mods/Hosted Mods (Archive) if they are specifically looking for them. A new visitor may not even realize that those two mods even exist (granted SW is STW ported to MTW).

I missed all the discussion back when the index was changed but I would certainly have voted against it (if my vote even counted). I don't see the problem with structuring the index much like TWC, though we certainly don't need to be mere copycats.

Most everyone here agrees that our decline began with TWC's rise. Any good organization takes a long hard look at what the competition that is kicking its' a$$ is doing to be successful.

Oh, and I agree that attempting to attract CA back here is a waste of time and energy. If the site becomes something more attractive than it is, they might stop in of their own accord. They stopped coming here for a reason....the Org isn't relevant and thus not worth the time.

And here's an idea: according to Org statistics we have 28,678 members total, but less than 1% of them are active members. Why don't we poll the other 99%+ as to why they don't come here anymore? I'm sure the #1 reason will be that they now have a life/family/career and don't have time/interest in gaming anymore, but surely there will be a list of other reasons that might be helpful in identifying why the Org is no longer a destination

[Axalon]

So... It was some 48h ago I posted my explicit question here: "Why do this administration insist on keeping this poor and awful index?". I'm sure that someone in staff or management must have seen it by now. Yet no reply, no explanation, no nothing... Does this mean we are back to the good 'ol silent treatment on da index - yet again? Back to failing to actually defend what you guys insist upon all the same - back to playing the admin wins card? Is that it? If so, not even a record of some 4 years of consistent failure and damage seems to have had much effect or difference here, now has it? I certainly hoped it would register by now, but apparently we will have too wait some more, it seems. All while the site continues to slowly die...

To be honest, the index is slowly killing the site and zilch is done about it. That annoys me. Off-topic areas are not the future of this site, it never was, and some 4 years down the road of clearly focusing on discussions on "current events" or whatever non-TW stuff has made all that abundantly clear. There are less people active here then ever before. The only rational conclusion can be that it has thus not done this place any favours - despite repeated tries by staff to suggest otherwise. The obvious can only be denied for so long, or so many times guys.

***

A sad indictment, IMHO, on what the Org has become...a local "bar & grill" to visit and trade BS on the latest news

Fully agreed...

- A

[edyzmedieval]

Just a quick idea - can we find a way to promote this post, or at least host the package made by Macsen Rufus?

People still play MTW, and especially now with the Steam version, and some people might want to mod and it's essential for them.

MTW Tools Package - https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...post2053715491

[Monk]

Agree with this. Everything related to a particular TW game should be in one place. That means general discussion, guides, mods, technical information....everything. I don't want to have to visit several sections to find what I want. As an example: MTW. There's parts of the game in Historical Total War Titles, Hosted Mods, and Hosted Mods (Archive). Someone looking for Redux or Samurai Warlords will only visit Hosted Mods/Hosted Mods (Archive) if they are specifically looking for them. A new visitor may not even realize that those two mods even exist (granted SW is STW ported to MTW).

i was just coming to the watchtower to make a thread to suggest this, but here it is put very well. thank you! I fully endorse this.

I haven't posted here in years but i've been playing Rome 2 in my free time a heck of a lot, and it brought back some good memories of this place. I dont mind the smaller crowd, but i think since the crowd is smaller, centralization would make this place feel a lot homier.

edit:

Oh, and I agree that attempting to attract CA back here is a waste of time and energy. If the site becomes something more attractive than it is, they might stop in of their own accord. They stopped coming here for a reason....the Org isn't relevant and thus not worth the time.

too right. the industry has moved away from giving small forums attention unless its a huge deal. there's just nothing in it for them. it's not just this place that has seen that treatment, but many others. times change.

[Gregoshi]

Okay, let's pretend the forum index is "fixed", we've reached out to CA and promoted the MTW Tools Package. What other suggestions does anyone have to revive the Org?

[edyzmedieval]

Here's some ideas:

- invite local YouTubers, ones who activate on the Org, to submit their content so we can promote it over here (as I've said, the videos on the sidebar need refreshing - they haven't been changed in like 2-3 years)
- Org competition - an AAR competition would work out for a start
- cross-promotion - I've mentioned this before, but some other gaming sites would be interested in simply adding a good backlink and exchange advertising space for a little while to draw traffic (Warhammer website perhaps?)
- NEWSLETTER - when the time of the new historical Total War comes, definitely a newsletter to inform ALL members about the new game

I'll come with some more.

For the moment I understand we're in a bind - but the next historical TW is coming, so when that is coming, at least the announcement in the next 6-9 months, we should be ready and prepared with at least some more posters. And once the anouncement is released, invite everyone back for discussions.

[ReluctantSamurai]

What other suggestions does anyone have to revive the Org?

I'll repeat my earlier suggestion...poll our own members as to why they don't visit much anymore. IIRC, one has to have an e-mail addy to join, yes? Collecting data on some of our short-comings would help point the way to what needs to be done....

[Montmorency]

Collecting data on some of our short-comings

Maybe their lives just don't have a particular place for this forum? We aren't trying to push a product here.

[Gregoshi]

I'll repeat my earlier suggestion...poll our own members...

My bad. I missed that suggestion when composing my post.

[Axalon]

Okay, let's pretend the forum index is "fixed", we've reached out to CA and promoted the MTW Tools Package. What other suggestions does anyone have to revive the Org?

Why just pretend? Why not do? Why not do now? What are you waiting for? I rather (start) fix the index now for all TW-games, then pretend its "fixed" for some unknown time later. Besides, once the index is "fixed" or at least more serious/attractive/competitive for all TW-games, we will know that 1). you guys, in staff, finally mean business about getting this site back on track again. 2). whatever other ideas that comes up might get a sporting chance to have an effect. Without a serious index for all TW-games in place, not much else will matter anyhow. Again, it all starts with the index...

- A

[edyzmedieval]

Ax, let's focus on other ideas now. I'm pretty sure the mods have got your point about the index, we need more ideas besides the index to bring this place up to super scratch.

[Beskar]

On one interesting note, Axalon's fix is undoing edyzmedieval's fix for Warhammer: Total War. Instead of having empty/quiet forums within a game section, Avalon is suggesting they be on the main index, bloating it with sub-forums that receive next to no use. Speaking of popular forums which use a similar layout, there is Paradoxplaza which the structure of that was originally inspired from, as it provided an area for people to contribute in general, then specific sub-forums for dedicated space. This kept the game community more unified opposed to more spread out.

The other suggestion was simply reversing the order the games were presented in, so older games at the top and newer games at the bottom. If this 'fix' was really so clear-cut, I would have done it already. But honesty, that change will have no impact on anything. I have made minor changes to the index, and elsewhere based on posts in here already, it is part of the practice of adapting and reacting to feedback.

I did notice some links have vanished from the game forums though which goes straight to the user-mods. When I get some time, I will re-add them. As this helped in navigation.

[ReluctantSamurai]

Maybe their lives just don't have a particular place for this forum? We aren't trying to push a product here.

In an earlier post I already suggested that the #1 reason for not coming here anymore will most likely be: life/family/no longer play. Doesn't mean there aren't other reasons: don't like the mods, don't like the forum structure, other sites that sponsor TW games are more interesting, etc., etc., etc. With over 28k members, a poll will likely turn up some useful information. Not sure which product you are referring to...the games (which 'push' themselves), or the Org, which we definitely need to 'push' if we are to remain a viable site

My bad. I missed that suggestion when composing my post.

No problems mate...I do it all the time, myself

Ax, let's focus on other ideas now.

But his idea is the easiest, and at least in the short term, most viable way of implementing changes to make the Org more attractive.

[Axalon]

Ax, let's focus on other ideas now.

Lets not.... Because.... Without a serious index for all TW-games in place, not much else suggested here will actually matter or have much effect anyhow. This is especially true long term. Its not about some damn short-term fix but to actually make this place relevant and active again. The site needs an index that actually allows and enables that. Again, it all starts with the index... So, lets start where it matters the most - the beginning. You don't start in the middle and worry about the foundation later, now do you? Same thing applies here.

- A