Representative Democracy [Concluded]

[Winston Hughes]

Being quite honest, the size of Zack's ISO (which I would have to read carefully as a whole to feel more confident in an actual alignmentdecision either way) scares me.

Aye, and it's not just the number of posts that makes it difficult - it's the lack of clarity and consolidation of his opinions, meaning that you often have to read a load of context to understand what he's saying at all.

Have you found/do you have other concerns besides perceiving a lack of Towny intent?

Not really. I wasn't minded to push him for the lynch today before he pulled his defence-by-emotion bit, and I'm by no means convinced that he's actually scum.

At this stage, I don't want to put any more time into reading him, as there are other people who need a closer look.

[Renata]

I'd like to see any of GH, Cuth and one of the inactives up for lynch. I'd like to say about Csargo that if he comes back to to put in a valid lynch vote, lynch him, because otherwise I think he might be facing wrath of Pizza right now. Not positive though. Otherwise, any of the others is fine by me.

I haven't done the work I need to do on Schema or Zack, to say anything useful about them.

I may not post again today, I'm up against some stressful shit until after the deadline, hopefully thatll be the end of it but I can't be sure. I'll see how it goes.

[Winston Hughes]

GH's D1 substance:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Morning all.

Slight scumleans for everyone who was going on about mechanics, etc. a few pages back. That's Sooh, Cass_, maybe one or two others, right?

Slight townleans for the people who wanted us to get back on track.

DP101 looks good, though I do agree with Winston on the "confidence" bit.
Visor looks good.
No read on Jabbz, not sure where all the positive leans are coming from.

Winston seems relaxed and engaged, I'll give him a townlean for now.

The case(s) I made for Zack being Chancellor after my initial long essay post are genuine and I have no plans on changing my Chancellor vote.

This is the kind of reaction/defense post I don't like.

Vote: Sooh

Let me elaborate on this, Zack's been taking a pretty common-sense "we want townies as district representatives/idk what my plan is going to be, a lot of it will be depending on the game flow" tactic when questioned about his strategy, which is exactly what I'd expect from town Zack in a position of power.

[Referring to Jabbz] Definitely not seeing the incorruptible pure pureness that other folks have talked about, but I'm not ready to tar and feather him as an enemy of the state quite yet.

Gimme a sec for athetoes.

Townread to dicetosser.

It was because of a bet.

[Visor]

GH/Zack, winston?

[Winston Hughes]

GH's D2 substance:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Okay so when I checked in on Monday a few hours after the lynch I had 13 pages staring at me. So if you ask me for specifics on what happened in the final 24 hours of D1, you're going to be out of luck.

I saw that Renata made a nice point on someone not following a logical train of thought (hell, that might have even been choxorn?) so I like her.

Somebody else had a good argument too that I noticed but I might be imagining things.

Oh also I'm perfectly fine with Cass remaining entrenched in power for as long as possible considering the result yesterday.

Vote: Cass_

What even is the Pizza strategy at this point?

FWIW I think scum Visor is more likely to try to keep the entire team alive for as long as possible, so I don't see him trying to pull something weird like that off on D1.

I'll be honest, I'm half-tempted to vote for Monstrbro and/or Zack to be lynched simply because it will cut down on my reading time and perhaps allow half of the other players to get a word in, but the problem is that I just don't see their interactions, particularly Monstrbro's, as something that a mafioso could pull off. Especially with regards to volume.

As it appears Cuthilius is my main competition, even though I'm obviously not going to get elected district rep anytime soon, I'm just going to do the sensible thing here and

Vote: Cuthilius

There was probably a case on him at some point but I couldn't remember the finer details in the Black Hole of Calcutta that is... well... this entire game, basically.

I want people to make a note of those who are pushing my lynch for "not making a case" and yet totally giving people like Csargo/Al Sips/Riedquat etc. a pass when the only difference seems to be that I'm at least posting more. I'm pretty sure at least one of the people on my wagon, especially those who are using this logic, are scum looking for an easy victim.

This appears to be the CONSENSUS READS LIST and not my own:

Cleared by D1
Cass
Dp101
Renata
atheotes

Good vibes
Monstrbro
Winston
Visor
Jabbz

Slightly less good vibes
Zack
Schema
dicetosser

Monty
Monty

Low posters
Csargo
Al Sipsclar
Riedquat
BSmith

Lynchbait
El Barto
GH
Cuthilius

Let's assume four scum. I think, contrary to popular belief, we're going to find at least one in some of the upper categories. Not the topmost obviously, unless there was a serious error in thought during the late stages of D1, but I'm guessing 1-2 in the combined "vibes" categories plus Monty, 1 in the low posters, and 1 in the lynchbait. The reason for this is simple: it's never that easy, and the consensus is never 100% accurate.

If the situation does look to be as rosy for town as it appears, then I'd pin down Schema as a possible maf that's higher up the reads list. Her(?) D2 has shown some warning signs:

[Responding to Schema's post 1203]

This was never properly explained and Schema instead in future posts went with the handwave defenses of "for now" and "I have reasons".

There is a decent amount of "I'm not scum partners with Cuth" and attacks on Cuth, which could strike me as a maf doing a partial deflection because she perceives the town as attacking the right target but for the wrong reasons. I don't think it's likely that Schema and Cuth are m/m but if Cuth is the lynch and flips town... well.

[Responding to Schema's post 1744]

Tone feels somewhat off for me (don't like the first paragraph/sentence especially) but this could just be a lack of familiarity with her meta.

Bottom line is though that if the PoE is working but isn't 100% I'm probably shooting Schema.

~~~~~~~~~~

This is a little unorthodox, but I would also not complain if one of the extremely high posters was lynched today (I guess Cuth would count for this as well) just to allow the thread to breathe a bit and see if it makes things any more appealing for the low posters to offer their thoughts without them. If they start being able to contribute, great. If not, we should probably start sharpening our scythes or otherwise it will be as Monstrbro said in 1773.

[Responding to Monstr switching dice and Jabbz in the consensus list]

I won't fight you on that, I remember pretty much only Zack beating the drum about Jabbz getting townread and him openly wondering why there's not more suspicion towards him, so that's what caused me to put Jabbz in the upper vibes tier.

[Responding to Monstr saying all scum unlikely to be in the inactive zone]

Precisely.

So let's say my "consensus PoE isn't correct, jump around the categories" theory wins the day. Shot in the dark, I need to pick out four scum right now, in order:

Cuthilius - wait for flip
> if town, Schema
> if scum, Jabbz
Riedquat, for the hell of it
Jabbs if not already shot, Barto if Jabbz isn't an option

And then Askthepizzaguy to be totally safe.

I think when Schema was taking heat earlier she was doth protesting too much about a possible M/M linkage between her and Cuth. Struck me as one of those "partially true" defenses.

[Responding to Renata]

Going by Monty's tally near the top of Page 59, it looks like my current voters thusfar are you, Monstrbro, and Cuth (I could have sworn that there were more but I guess you always assume the outlook's worse for you than it actually is when votes are staring you in the face). Of the three I don't really see you or Monstrbro being scum so I guess it would be Cuth, but I was speaking more of the general concept.

Let me clear up the bolded sentence you quoted.

(This is a universe where Schema is maf but Cuth is town)

The sequence of votes is that Cuth has votes and Schema's taking some heat.
Schema sees, whether real or imagined, people linking her to Cuth.
Schema wants to defend this, makes a couple of posts saying the link to her and Cuth is off base.
Partial defenses always ring truer than entirely fabricated defenses, Schema takes the tactic that "we can't be M/M because X Y and Z", that part she mostly focuses on is her affiliation with Cuth, that's not a lie (they're not M/M together) so all's good.

~~~~~~

In a universe where Cuth *is* scum then Schema's stated defense makes sense and I don't see them being mafia together.

Note: there were quite a few posts I left out here that were not irrelevant, but didn't really add anything new to the discussion.

[Winston Hughes]

GH/Zack, winston?

GH/Zack/chox would mean the scum came out all guns blazing to try and take the throne right from the start.

Not impossible, I guess, but I would be rather surprised if they were that full-on about it.

[Winston Hughes]

First thing I'd say about GH is that his D2 has shown far more skin than his D1, to the point where I'm tempted to let him slide for today in the hope that he'll keep getting better as we go on.

It's still not great, though. There's the vague impression of a townie mind, but I'm not getting that warm, fuzzy feeling just yet. So far, there's nothing I'd put past him to fake.

[Cass_]

Monty maybe not a WTL today after rest of (this game) ISO.

There's a lot more direct questioning and less generalised sideline comments than earlier on, so on general principles he's moving up.
FTR I do struggle to see how someone as analytical as he appears to be missed the differences between Chox's play but tinfoil can maybe rest for a while and I'll go look somewhere else for now.

In other news, gonna YOLO that interactions don't feel WW.

To be more specific, why do you (GH) dismiss the bold, and why does it look like Schema-scum if Cuth is town? What exactly is your relational argument here for opposite alignment, since the relation seems to be the focus?

Why isn't it a wash, either?

Let me clear up the bolded sentence you quoted.

(This is a universe where Schema is maf but Cuth is town)

The sequence of votes is that Cuth has votes and Schema's taking some heat.
Schema sees, whether real or imagined, people linking her to Cuth.
Schema wants to defend this, makes a couple of posts saying the link to her and Cuth is off base.
Partial defenses always ring truer than entirely fabricated defenses, Schema takes the tactic that "we can't be M/M because X Y and Z", that part she mostly focuses on is her affiliation with Cuth, that's not a lie (they're not M/M together) so all's good.

~~~~~~

In a universe where Cuth *is* scum then Schema's stated defense makes sense and I don't see them being mafia together.

You didn't recall it? I'm asking why you didn't include yourself in the big choxorn related post you made at start of day. You dragged out quotes from everybody who ever said a word about him but left out yourself. Why did you make that choice?

Because it isn't important to me.

@Montmorency:

I mean, here's your post. You represent it at the outset as being explicitly about "the choxorn affair", and then you talk about everybody involved except yourself. The focus on Visor doesn't come until later.

It's not comprehensive. Frankly, the exchange between you and me had no bearing on how players related to Choxorn and how that in turn could relate to Visor.

Nooo

Renata, most of your ISO links are broken btw.

[Winston Hughes]

Looking at Schema now. My impression of the early stuff is good. Don't know who I'm reading here, though.

Anyone give me some meta info on experience, style, skills, etc?

[Winston Hughes]

actually

vote: Sooh

i looked back; is scummy

Well damn. New informations.

Can you explain your change, please?

Was this picked up already?

Unlikely w/w?

[Visor]

Was this picked up already?

Unlikely w/w?

Yes, I mentioned it, though I find that interaction to not be clearing in the slightest. I find Cuth appealing to Schema to vote him as representative at EOD1 to be far more clearing of w/w.

[Winston Hughes]

What's the current strength of your scumread on Cuth, Visor?

[Winston Hughes]

Vote: Riedquat

This is just precautionary, in case something unexpectedly stops me from voting later on.

[Visor]

What's the current strength of your scumread on Cuth, Visor?

Part of me wants to say, he's just having a really really bad game in terms of appearing townie, but I'm a softie. Some of his moves have been bizarre from any alignment, but Cuth does continue to baffle me in most games. His interactions rarely seem to be pushing the game forward, more replying to whatever happens to be in the thread at the time, his progressions on other players just seem too... quick to jump to conclusions and the conclusions he DOES make seem wrong or too weird/strange.

The other issue is, his progression on me is what he would have to do if he was scum, but he might genuinely have it as town.

Look, I can't clear him and I never will this game. I'm at the doubting stage because of how stagnant the game seems to feel, feels like the POE is mostly sorted here.

I feel like my scumread on him is fairly strong, he has a large amount of things against him that I agree with, but there is the little nagging voice that says, maybe he's just having an off game?

But I don't feel like I can listen to that voice with how he has played this game and specifically today. I might reread his posts today and see how they flow, if they're more of a okay we lynched scum, lets springboard off there, or its an okay we lynched scum, how can I control this situation.

[Cass_]

I… I can't make sense of most of what people say. I read the first hundred unread posts out of >400, then my brain again started to feel as if if were melting into cheese. So any analysis comes from those posts plus one in which Cass_ used the mention feature.

https://forums.civfanatics.com/threa...#post-14606841

I OMGUS a lot, especially in the earlier stages of the game. When vanilla town. (if you want to treat that as a hardclaim, by all means).

It wasn't my first post and it was obviously a joke post addressed at Winston. And yes, my username on CFC is Takhisis.

He might seriously be a power role but I doubt it.

I don't find the move odd. I find the procedure itself odd. Town strikes gold, yes, but someone being very scummy could not be lynched because the chancellor and/or representatives of the day felt otherwise. We have a gerrymanderable lynch vote.

btw if you hadn't dropped that mention I would have skipped straight through your post, as I said above.

i kinda like that el barto post, maybe

Yeah, there will need to be more, but I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt for now.

@Cuthillius @Winston
Walk me through why?

Tbh I don't see anything Towny about it apart from the fact it has more words. There's still no hunting. It's self-talk and a general comment about the mechanics of the game. The bottom part potentially suggests he's only looking at those things, so there's an excuse, but it doesn't make it Town play.

Re-ISO'd and there has been no content since then.

Still at square one/WTL for me.

unvote

These guys on the other hand...

Summary of Riedquat's meaningful contributions thus far:

*Votes Visor for all three categories on D1.
*Votes Winston for the D2 election + suspects Visor.
*Orders his town reads within district 2: Winston, Monstr, Visor, El Barto.
*Acknowledges his own and others' scumminess by reason of inactivity.

Summary of BSmith's meaningful contributions thus far:

*D1 votes Winston for rep, Visor for chancellor, and Al Sips for lynch, claiming he hasn't read the thread yet.
*Changes rep vote to Visor to test his ability claim.
*D2 votes Winston for rep + calls Visor and Winston townie + votes Cuth for lynch on the Sooh thing + says Monty is 'making good cases' + various other obvious reads

BSmith's read of Monty is the closest thing to a deviation from the path of least resistance in those two ISOs.

But I'm not sure if that makes him more scummy than Riedquat or less.

Mindmeld with bold and would suggest that it makes Riedquat's contributions possibly more genuine?

[Winston Hughes]

Finishing off Schema's D1 ISO, it all looks fairly townie to me.

Nothing that I want to cuddle up with in front of the fire, but nothing I want to leave freezing outside in the snow either.

[Visor]

Finishing off Schema's D1 ISO, it all looks fairly townie to me.

Nothing that I want to cuddle up with in front of the fire, but nothing I want to leave freezing outside in the snow either.

That was my feeling after her D1 too. I need to see more though, more leading on her part in terms of pushing her own reads.

[Visor]

Vote: Cuthillius

Alright, rereading his ISO I can't in good faith let him live another day.

[Cass_]

Part of me wants to say, he's just having a really really bad game in terms of appearing townie, but I'm a softie. Some of his moves have been bizarre from any alignment, but Cuth does continue to baffle me in most games. His interactions rarely seem to be pushing the game forward, more replying to whatever happens to be in the thread at the time, his progressions on other players just seem too... quick to jump to conclusions and the conclusions he DOES make seem wrong or too weird/strange.

The other issue is, his progression on me is what he would have to do if he was scum, but he might genuinely have it as town.

Look, I can't clear him and I never will this game. I'm at the doubting stage because of how stagnant the game seems to feel, feels like the POE is mostly sorted here.

I feel like my scumread on him is fairly strong, he has a large amount of things against him that I agree with, but there is the little nagging voice that says, maybe he's just having an off game?

But I don't feel like I can listen to that voice with how he has played this game and specifically today. I might reread his posts today and see how they flow, if they're more of a okay we lynched scum, lets springboard off there, or its an okay we lynched scum, how can I control this situation.

Since when with the bold?

I understand all the other thoughts, but I've never seen you give quarter for a performance you think is poor.

[Visor]

Since when with the bold?

I understand all the other thoughts, but I've never seen you give quarter for a performance you think is poor.

Just cause I don't show it doesn't mean it isn't there.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Moderator note: This is a friendly reminder that this is a GAME and we are all here to have fun. If this is no longer the case for you, it is more productive for everyone if you step away from the computer for a while and do something else, not lash out at the other players.

Thank you for your understanding.

[Winston Hughes]

Walk me through why?

It was just a gut reaction from me. Can't really explain it, except to say I felt encouraged that maybe he might be preparing to give us more.

That he hasn't done so since is disappointing, and means he's still high on the suspect list.

Mindmeld with bold and would suggest that it makes Riedquat's contributions possibly more genuine?

Relatively? Yeah, I guess it might.

[Winston Hughes]

I'm campaigning for District 1 today.

Vote: Schema

I can't see what the point of this is from scum. It's obviously never going to happen, and it's too likely to draw suspicion to be worth a shot for some kind of derpclear.

[Montmorency]

FTR I do struggle to see how someone as analytical as he

I'm not sure what to make of that.

[Visor]

Winston, how's your read on Cuth?

[Winston Hughes]

The rest of Schema's D2 is meh.

Loss of energy isn't necessarily scummy, but it's certainly less townie.

[Winston Hughes]

Winston, how's your read on Cuth?

Mostly, I flip-flop between thinking he looks terrible and thinking my ability to read him is terrible.

There have been moments where, in the flow of the thread, I've thought he doesn't look quite so bad, but they never really stand up to much on review.

One thing seems certain: if we lynched him and he showed up scum, the game would get a lot simpler.

And that makes me nervous.

[Winston Hughes]

From the 100+ posters, only Zack and Cuth are currently in my poe. I'm still a bit leery of Monty, but he's grown on me as the game has gone on.

From the middle band, GH and El Barto are in there. Ideally, I'd need to do proper rereads on Jabbz, dicetosser and atheotes, but my family will be getting home early soon, so that won't be happening today. Out of the three, I guess Jabbz is the scummiest based on my own reads and others' reactions.

All of the sub-20 posters are in there. Checking them again, I'm inclined to give Al and Ried passes for today, leaving Csargo and BSmith as the options.

unvote

Vote: Csargo

Defaulting to the suspect who's shown the least skin while I let things percolate some more.

[Winston Hughes]

Zack
Cuth
GH
El Barto
BSmith
Csargo

All opinions on the above will be gratefully received, especially from each other.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Host note-

I'll be doing my own tally soon, a second set of eyes doing the tally would be appreciated for comparison.