Representative Democracy [Concluded]

[Visor]

hey dice you gonna respond to my cass stuff?

you bring it up and then i explain why and you've gone quiet

[Zack]

i'm sure he'll respond to it when he posts his reads list

i want to see where he puts you and cass

or if he has any town reads and why he is townreading them but not cass

[Cass_]

Skimming up
@Visor I headed each district with likely Town, and filled it with 'the rest'/my sketchballs, aiming to have more 'probably Town' leans in each district.

Feel like you either disagreed with the choice/were throwing shade/possibly both - What would you change?/why?

@Monty - Why would you want to switch monstr out for BSmith? Why would Bsmith/Atheotes have to compete if that's your logic?

[Visor]

Skimming up
@Visor I headed each district with likely Town, and filled it with 'the rest'/my sketchballs, aiming to have more 'probably Town' leans in each district.

Feel like you either disagreed with the choice/were throwing shade/possibly both - What would you change?/why?

@Monty - Why would you want to switch monstr out for BSmith? Why would Bsmith/Atheotes have to compete if that's your logic?

I was just asking why

[Montmorency]

What is the second half of that supposed to mean Monty?

It means he godzillas all over Townsville and Bubbles may secretly be evil.

Interactions with Visor smack of holding back and confidential dealings.

Can hardly make a statement without giving a 'however...' - until he's ready to go on the full attack.

Sinister timing in the movement from Barto onto Zack during D2, with votes on low-activity players in between.

What follows are Winston ISOs of D1 and D2, nearly bare description/paraphrase of his content with some of his words quoted directly. In fact, I should probably have done more in describing context and interactions as such.

Day 3 was just a few posts. I can probably do it later if necessary. I will never ISO him D4, and he's a third of the posts so far anyway.


Winston ISO Day 1:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

First 10 posts:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Hardclaims "liar". Votes himself for Chancellor (for having time to exercise power and because he will be early kill anyway), Visor for Rep (for rolling out town swag, though he could potentially be faking), and Barto for lynch (for stretching metagame cover). Couches shade on me in question about hamminess. Calls me ballsy if scum, looking bad for scenery chewing and mechanics talk. Comments that Visor is also being hammy, and that my style allows w/w with him. Asks Renata why he should never be lynched (i.e. why Renata is liking him). Shades me more, asks for solving and reads. Explains latest town games as experimental hunt-by-shitpost, and getting killed for tricking scum into concluding him as PR. Says Renata's townread makes him both happy and paranoid.

Posts 11-20:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Laughs at GH's post on failed formatting in his (GH's) vote. Reads dicetosser as relaxed town, could be faking on D1 but not worth lynching. "Sooh's posting lacks substance, looks scummy." Laughs because previous comment on Sooh cross-posted with Sooh's frustration wrt formatting. "Luckily for you, El Barto is still at large." in response to Sooh's goading him into voting her. Confirms lynchvote on Barto for perceived focus on self-preservation and lack of townie intent. Reads Dp101 as displaying his standard townie look, but then again could be scum due to greater confidence, or it could be progress in his town game. Asserts that Barto can show townie intent, though usually when dead or under threat of death. Corrects my tally in switching his Chancellor and Rep votes. Evaluates Zack vs. Jabbz, finding the former slightly scummier though neither are worth trusting or lynching yet.

On Zack vs. Jabbz:

Zack knows that most people struggle to adapt to a new meta, and that this makes them vulnerable to misunderstanding, overreaction, and any number of other traps that can lead to a mislynch.

Jabbz has shown confidence in his standard meta (even if he hasn't explained it very well), and a willingness to engage with people who are self-evidently very capable players.

I'd neither trust nor lynch either at this stage, but right now it's Zack who's trending scummier for me.

Posts 21-30:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Finds it weird/difficult to analyze Renata can't read her, because most of the games they played together were from years ago. Renata gets no townpoints due to old paranoia, but not a lynch candidate either. Informs dicetosser that less than a day to end of phase. Defends Renata paranoia to paranoia, while claiming that his paranoia as either alignment has declined over time. In response to Monstr asking for town reads,

I am unsure of everything, and I'm not minded here to pretend otherwise.

But I have been giving/implying townpoints (to Jabbz, Visor, dicetosser, Dp101), as well as scumpoints (to El Barto, Monty, Sooh, Zack).

I haven't reread Cass yet, but the vibe was fairly positive on first look.

Everyone else is in the null pile until I take a closer look.

In response to Monstr asking what scum Winston looks like, he claims he doesn't post as freely as he has so far this game, and never has before. However, he expresses uncertainty as to whether it really would be possible for his scum game now given how much his play has changed since his last scum game. I asked about this wrt Futuramafia, to which Winston replied that he has been town for every game in over a year, and that he was jumpier and more excitable in Futuramafia, more prone to prioritizing emergent reads. "I'm trying to be more methodical here (not least because I actually have time to do so), but I'm still posting the first thing that comes to mind, rather than sweating over every post." Asks about Monstr's presence in Mafia-playing communities. Finds townie vibe in MOnstr's play in itself, but a hint of caution that could be sensible in scum. Finds delay in substantive posting to be good for scum trying to get the lay of the land before committing (but "obviously RL can't be helped").

Gives Cuth iso in response to Visor's call, saying that despite being unable to trust his own judgement of Cuth, he knows Cuth town to do things he [Winston] finds scummy.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...post2053729620
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...post2053729649

CUth should explain his disapproval toward my post against Visor more thoroughly. Doesn't agree with Cuth's townread of Zack given Zack's skill at fakery and the early stage of the game. Suggests it's an attempt at snuggling. Doesn't understand why Cuth said "visor>monstr scum". Feels that Dp101 and Cass are easy names to put on town list. Makes note of Cuth's elaboration of his criticism of my one post (which weirded Cuth out). Commenting on Cuth's votes, Winston feels that self-vote for Chancellor is cheap, Rep-vote for Zack is cheap, and lynchvote for Visor is risky for Cuth-scum but less so due to lack of accompanying explanation. Finds "abortive exchange" between Monstr and Cuth that could suggest w/w for lack of followup, though it's not that interesting. "Obvious thought, phrased weakly and unjustified" in reference to Cuth saying GH could be scum. Comments on Cuth's reads on Visor and Monty in response to Renata, calling Visor read all gut and "barely even an excuse of a reason" and Monty read "reasonable but easy" for lack of insight on the initial strong reaction to my post. Calls some comments on VIsor's scumminess pure spam for lack of anything to help others understand the read. In Part 2 of the ISO, leaving out some "spam posts", he decides he's fine with Cuth giving town points to Schema, at the same time expressing disdain for "pre-packed scumreading devices". Continuing on Cuth's read of Schema, "Explaining his method. Don't like it, don't see it helping, but not scummy in itself." Disagrees with all of Cuth's leans (i.e. Sooh town UTR, Visor subpar push on Sooh and acting like in Hydra, Monstr trending up, trusting Zack over Cass), while considering this an illustration of the problem he has reading Cuth properly. Criticizes Cuth post assuming VIsor scum and looking for partners in his district as pointless and without explanation, "This is so bad I'd be tempted to push his lynch over it, except for one thing: I lynched Cuth for saying horrible stuff last time we met, and while I was right about it being horrible, I was wrong to think he was scum." Notes Cuth replying to Zack on Visor meta, complains Cuth hasn't talked about much else. Sees Cuth response to Jabbz justifying Zack on meta grounds as "finding new ways to talk about same stuff." Closes ISO with, "Meta info on Cass is welcome. Still only talking about the same tiny handful of people, though."

When Renata calls out perceived TMI in Jabbz for asking Sooh for deathbed reads, Winston notes that Jabbz is coming for a rare game outside his home site - "an island culture" - but hedges with knowledge that Jabbz is a strong scummer and wouldn't "be making the kinds of obvious mistakes you're seeing here".

Posts 31-42:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Cuth looks bad even when Winston tries to correct his bias, owing to "narrow focus, lack of explanation, no evidence of development." Responding to Renata's skepticism on his explanation of Jabbz, Winston says he could be getting fooled with Zack and her pegging Jabbz correctly, but to Winston Jabbz vibes town and Renata is reaching. I could be scum (he's seen it) or town (can't speak against it) because half of what I say makes no sense to him. Reading Cass, substantive mechanics discussion is townie enough but easy, interactions feel relaxed, asks a lot of questions with thought process that can be followed (though easy to fake), defence of mechanics discussion feels townie, giving and seeking opinions on multiple subjects, god process, mindmeld on subject of Visor's election, reads on Jabbz feel townie, seeks discussion and understanding on everyone and everything, repeated mindmelds, worst thing to be found is stalling response Monstr's request for reads on Schema - looks town all the way, impressive job if scum. When I ask Winston to expand his meta assessment of me, he calls it a throwaway point that he believes scum should seek clarity and usually prefer to avoid being misunderstood, and so leans townie on people who aren't clear to him, but I went counter to this expectation as scum in Futuramafia. Unvotes himself for Chancellor, votes Cass. Responds to Renata's complaint of ISO limitations in the Org structure that it's better than in CFC, which may have lost the function entirely. Despite paranoia, Winston feels townie vibe from Renata's flow and activity. In response to Choxorn criticizing Jabbz for textwall, "Of all the things you could have talked about, why did you choose this?" After BSmith pops in, Winston sarcastically tells him that all the preceding posts and discussions are worth reading. When Cass is concerned with Winston's vote on Bart, he explains that it doesn't matter and so won't be moved; Barto has done nothing worthy of having it removed, and Winston wants it to be clear whom he suspects. Cass asks "How do you tell the difference between Town/Scum El Barto ?", to which Winston responds that he should be lynched for host reveal, reaffirms that Barto has even less town intent than usual, and after having displayed some in recent games. In his closing statement, he responds to Cass asking why he doesn't place his vote on other scum reads with, "As per my previous post, I've not placed him over other scummy reads, I've just not changed my vote."

Winston ISO Day 2:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Posts 43-50:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

After Visor admits lying about doublevote, Winston explains that he figured Visor was lying and crumbed it with the "Liar" hardclaim (though that opening post was in fact "a multilayered extravaganza"). Winston supported and supports Visor because he saw the claim as a townie thing to do, stupid for scum, and altogether still likely to end in Visor's lynch. Mocks DPs promise to vote the next person to say "lol". Votes self for Rep on the grounds that he will be available for EOD to make sure Cass gets the final decision, even "if it means putting himself in the firing line". However, he will still be putting forth independent arguments. Opens himself to interactions but warns that most time will be spent "reading and thinking, with a view to setting out some cases in the latter half of the day." Asks Monstr what Monstr is like as scum, and how he would play this game as scum. Asks Barto if Barto is scum (during Barto's spat with Monstr). Winston thanks Monstr for meta and evaluates him "either town or really really good at scumming". Votes El Barto for lynch.

Posts 51-60:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Comments that this game is surprising easy, corrects "surprising" to "surprisingly". Chides Barto "You know I'm not scum" in response to Barto voting him. Cajoles Barto to do better, claiming that Barto knows how to read Winston better than anyone, as a specialty even, and that if Barto affirms Winston as scum then Winston will have to actually assume Barto is scum. Winston demands Barto to give another read/target. Barto threatens to vote Zack, and Winston asks him why Zack is scum. Winston seconds Renata's townie vibe in dicetosser, for authentic irritation. Expresses surprise or confusion at Visor self-vote for Rep, asks what Visor plans to do with it. Winston warns Barto that he will only unvote him if he shows towniness. Winston tells Visor that he still isn't convinced that Cuth should swing, when Visor votes him.

Posts 61-70:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Visor tells Winston he'd be fine with either Barto or Cuth, having scumread them D1, but Winston demands Visor not go soft and provide a full case on Cuth. Offers that he failed in reasing Visor's content (re: Cuth progression on Sooh), and that the case on Cuth is good and the voters should decide on it. When Zack asks Winston expected Visor to do other than run for Rep, Winston says he didn't and that Dq is for business and D2 for pleasure. Winston acknowledges Visor switching to him for Rep vote because Dp101 is carrying the case against Cuth (and so it's OK for the district to vote otherwise?). Zack can't understand why people are townreading Jabbz, and Winston asks him to summarize the case (for lazy people). Zack does not comply, and Winston maintains that he still isn't seeing it, though promising to rereat Jabbz in hope of finding why the best explanation for Zack's complaints is scum-Jabbz. Informs Csargo that he has to cast a lynch-vote by the rules. Commenting on Al SIpsclar's leans list, asks why Monty and Schema are scumleans, why BSmith, Csargo, and Riedquat are not scumleans, and why Jabbz is a townlean. Provides Cass with links to his latest scum and town games, though with the caveat that the scum games have ~10 posts from him (and with further caveat that these are at least better than the scum game in which he spoke only in movie quotes).

Posts 71-80:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Zack mentions another game Winston can give Cass for ISO, to which Winston discusses problems with games containing multiple scum factions for the evaluation of hunting tone or process. *Something about multiball, and that being an amusing reference* Cuth likes Barto's latest post giving meta and other comments, and Winston agrees, unvoting to give Barto another chance. Now Winston turns to Riedquat and BSmith, calling Bsmith's read of me the most indicative of independent thought, but unsure of whether that makes him more or less scummy than Riedquat.

Yeah, there will need to be more, but I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt for now.

unvote

These guys on the other hand...

Summary of Riedquat's meaningful contributions thus far:

*Votes Visor for all three categories on D1.
*Votes Winston for the D2 election + suspects Visor.
*Orders his town reads within district 2: Winston, Monstr, Visor, El Barto.
*Acknowledges his own and others' scumminess by reason of inactivity.

Summary of BSmith's meaningful contributions thus far:

*D1 votes Winston for rep, Visor for chancellor, and Al Sips for lynch, claiming he hasn't read the thread yet.
*Changes rep vote to Visor to test his ability claim.
*D2 votes Winston for rep + calls Visor and Winston townie + votes Cuth for lynch on the Sooh thing + says Monty is 'making good cases' + various other obvious reads

Now Winston says Zack looks scummy for seemingly trying to bury reads in spam, and wants to say Monstr too but the reread negates that and puts Monstr on a better look, because among the chatty stuff there are lots of pushes and opinions, "and a sense of actually trying to understand." Further points against Zack are the badboy attitude that he likes to take advantage of as scum, and the aggressive response to Jabbz without attempt to understand the other guy. Concluding on Zack, "today I feel like he's been running interference, discouraging the town core in his interactions with them, and making it harder for the inactives to keep up by waging his post war with Monstr." Responding to Zack's comeback with snark and a reference to meta in another game, Winston suggests that Zack is saying Winston is townie for scumreading him (because scum Winston is quick to townread Zack). Zack says he's being sarcastic, which Winston protests doesn't work on the Internet. Winston understands Zack as preferring victory to shitposting, making Zack's actions this game easier to follow as win-oriented scum actions than as win-oriented town actions.

Posts 81-90:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Riedquat says BSmith's posts make him less scummy than himself, to which Winston replies "more" with an angry face. Now the confrontation with Zack begins in earnest (Page 66). Zack has made a lot of impact on the game D2, mostly negative in Winston's view. Winston explains to Zack that he is townhunting, looking for townie mind that is hard to fake, believable thought processes leading to pro-town actions. Winston admits that Zack lies to save his buddies, so will reread D1 wrt Choxorn to see if Zack not trying to save him impacts the case. Zack calls this arbitrary. Winston responds,

I'm not trying to prove myself, I'm trying to work you out.

What are you trying to do?

Riedquat questioned Winston's evaluation of BSmith & Riedquat scumminess, to which Winston's asks how much of the thread Riedquat has read. Zack fires back that Winston is motivated to manufacture a case against him [Zack] to sate paranoia. Winston says Zack case is not paranoia, and that paranoia would tell him to not trust Visor as much as he does. Winston claims he went looking for reasons to find Monstr and Zack townie, found them for Monstr, didn't for Zack. As for the Choxorn connection, looking at D1 Winston doesn't find Zack to be an obvious beneficiary of the flip, but he doesn't like how Zack is resting on this fact. Zack calls it all ridiculous, which Winston claims is Zack's go-to defence (i.e. creating emotional confrontation). Zack protests this, but Winston says it is manifested in Zack dismissing his suspicions ridiculous to belittle his efforts and cause irrational missteps. Winston acknowledges that Zack does this as town, but has been overdoing it in this game - "I'm not being ridiculous. I'm expressing a genuine suspicion that I've come to by reasonable means." Zack specifies that he was referring specifically to Winston targetting him at a low point in thread activity at the expense of other targets, or dismissing Zack's self-defense during that low point in activity. Winston asks Cass what she thinks of Zack and whether she sees any of the townie intent Zack alleges. Winston reports on his review of Chox-Zack connection and defence for Zack based on not trying to save Chox, claiming he doesn't get it. Winston admits Zack isn't sticking his neck out to help Chox, but nor is anyone else, and anyway the Chox lynch came as a dark horse outside the scope of day discussion. Quoting Zack's D1 post about Renata not running for Rep (she was voting Chox at the time), Winston remarks that the most charitable explanation is very slight indirect support for Chox lynch, but that even this is diluted by Dp101 being in line for the position and already sheeping Renata. Winston's less-charitable interpretation is that Zack was shading Renata to diminish her case on Choxorn by association. Responding to Cass' evaluation of Zack, Winston agrees that the number of posts is intimidating, but not as much as the lack of clarity and the diffusion. To Cass's question on whether he perceives more against Zack than simple lack of townie intent, Winston admits that he isn't convinced Zack is scum and wasn't going to push the case until Zack began his emotionally-focused defence. He defers the case for later because there are other people who need to be looked at now.

Posts 91-100:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Winston begins ISO of GH, leaving out a lot of irrelevant posts. [Winston doesn't provide embdedded commentary as he did with Cuth] Visor asks Winston on the odds of GH-Zack team, and Winston says it's not impossible, but he would be surprised if scum all came out guns blazing like that. Returning to GH, Winston finds that he has shown more skin D2 than D1 to the point where it's tempting to let him slide and hopefully improve, though it still doesn't look great, nothing he'd put it past GH to fake. "There's the vague impression of a townie mind, but I'm not getting that warm, fuzzy feeling just yet." Then Winston turns to Schema, calling the early material good and asking for meta since he doesn't know her. Putting Cuth's vote onto Sooh against Schema's reaction to it asking for explanation, Winston ventures that w/w/ is unlikely. Visor replies that he doesn't find this interaction clearing, and Winston asks for update on the strength of Visor's read on Cuth. Winston places a first lynchvote on Riedquat, calling it default in case something prevents him from voting later in the day. Finishing off Schema's D1 ISO, Winston affirms that it looks fairly townie, adding "Nothing that I want to cuddle up with in front of the fire, but nothing I want to leave freezing outside in the snow either." Visor agrees. Cass asks Winston to walk through on lenience for Barto, and Winston replies that he felt an encouraging gut reaction to Barto's last post (see this ISO, posts 71-80), but Barto hasn't followed up on it so he remains high on the list of suspects. Cass also notes mindmeld on Winston's remark on BSmith-Riedquat (see this ISO posts 71-80), and that it suggests Riedquat more genuine than BSmith, and Winston agrees noncommittaly.

Posts 101-110:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Winston points to Schema's early D2 self-vote for Rep and that it has no point coming from scum, that it calls up too much attention. Rest of Schema D2 ISO feels meh, but loss of energy, while certainly less towny, is not scummy necessarily. To Visor's request for updated feelings on Cuth, Winston admits he vacillates between thinking Cuth looks terrible and thinking his ability to read Cuth is terrible. Cuth has had some moments that look good in thread flow, but it doesn't stand up to scrutiny. The one certainty is that Cuth flipping scum makes the game much simpler, which prospect Winston finds to be a cause of anxiety. From the high posters, only Zack and Cuth are currently in Winston's POE, with him remaining leery of me while feeling me grow on him. From the middle posters, he is looking at GH and Barto. Rereads of Jabbz, dice, and atheotes are necessary at some point, and initial impression based on Winston's own reads and others' reactions is that Jabbz is scummiest. All of the low-posters are suspect. Rechecking them, Al SIpsclar and Riedquat get a pass for now, leaving BSmith and Csargo. He switches onto Csargo, "defaulting to the suspect who's shown the least skin while I let things percolate some more." Winston asks for thoughts on Zack, Cuth, GH, Barto, BSmith, and Csargo, especially from one another. Zack returns to engage Winston on his case [on Zack], maintaining that the (lack of) Choxorn connection contradicts Winston's view that Zack is playing from a pro-scum approach. Winston sees the absence of an attempt to save Choxorn as not evidencing anything in particular, especially given that Zack was in no position to save him, and that such an attempt in the circumstances would have looked terrible at all times and from all angles. Zack persists in saying he didn't take the most beneficial move for scum D1, and that he [Zack] doesn't let scumbuddies get lynched D1. However, to Winston " that one thing you didn't do holds very little weight in the context of all the stuff you have done, as well as the other stuff you haven't done." Winston calls Zack overly focused on self-defence to the point of resting on irrelevant points, and that at best if Zack is town he is wasting everyone's time. Winston forecloses on any more discussion of Zack's defence today, because it isn't helping and Zack should talk about something else. Zack dismisses these considerations as arbitrary and precluding of any of Zack's defenses. Zack points WInston to posts on other subjects from before Winston opened the case on him. Winston finally moves his lynchvote onto Zack, because Zack offers only "self-serving demands to be lock-cleared for something that isn't even evidence." All of Zack's content, if there is any, is buried under spam and he refuses to make any effort to elaborate them or explain them to others, and it's all straight anti-town at this point. Winston assures the thread that if Dp101 is a no-show to vote on lynch, then Winston will switch to whomever Cass wants as her second choice, assuming she isn't happy with Winston's vote on Zack.

Posts 111-8:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Zack points out that he never said anything about lock-clear and that he was exposing a flaw in Winston's argument, but Winston retorts that it was not a flaw and that Zack is trying to excuse his dismissal of Winston's case as ridiculous. Winston adds that Zack's insinuation is that the Choxorn connection should be clearing in some way for him. Zack claims that as scum he tries to pocket top townies, while here he has antagonized the district leaders. Zack is on the verge of exploding. Visor tells Winston and Zack to drop it for today. I make my first scumlean on Winston (post 2141). Winston will happily stop talking about Zack, and will change his vote if Cass tells him to. Atheotes feels uneasy about this last comment because townies should try to convince others on primary or secondary reads, and why should Cass decide for him (not that it matters outside of a GH vote). Winston replies that he's explained it all at length, and "given that Cass showed last night the benefit of having viable options beyond her own vote in the final reckoning, and given that my vote is irrelevant if she doesn't share the read, I'm happy to change my vote at her request." Reminds Jabbz that there are 15 minutes remaining to deadline. When Cass posts her strategic reasoning on who to tiebreak among GH/Cuth/Bart, she advances Barto as the most likely choice for his lack of contribution (and also the motion that Zack should be given another day to shape up); this all makes sense and doesn't sound crazy to Winston. Zack concurs. Last post of D2 for Winston:

You want me to switch Zack for Cuth, Cass?

It seems like I'm in a very small minority thinking there's anything to be suspicious about with the Z man.

Cass declines, reiterates earlier strategy post, and asks all for preferences. Monstr doesn't know if Cass' stated strategy will be right but he believes in Cass. Schema has GH/Barto as safest shots, but Cass should deal with the content from Barto as much as the inactivity. Zack mourns the demise of democracy, but is fine with Barto lynch as long as it's not just for inactivity. Atheotes calls for Barto. Visor says it doesn't matter to him, good luck to Cass. Winston remarks that a dead Barto is good for his reads (noting that one of his reads was scum Zack).

[atheotes]

can i get an explanation for this sequence

I was just encouraging Renata to change her vote. I felt resolving Cuth could give us more information.
It did not happen. so i resolved El Barto.

[Montmorency]

Skimming up
@Visor
@Monty - Why would you want to switch monstr out for BSmith? Why would Bsmith/Atheotes have to compete if that's your logic?

In District 2, BSmith is the towniest now with his claim, but he is less-active and Winston or Visor could easily get one of the other elected in his place. They cannot resist Monstr's election, however. Meanwhile, in a district with high-towns like Monstr and atheotes, one of them will be elected and the other will not be. They will de facto be competing against each other, even as District 2 falls apart.

With my proposed switch we get Monstr Rep for District 2, and atheotes as District 3 (with BSmith available as fallback just in case).

[Zack]

multiball = games with multiple scum factions

for reference

[Montmorency]

multiball = games with multiple scum factions

for reference

You read that in my ISO, huh?

[Zack]

I was just encouraging Renata to change her vote. I felt resolving Cuth could give us more information.
It did not happen. so i resolved El Barto.

don't fake a red peek a minute to deadline

ever

[atheotes]

I understand the vig shot. But not the claim. There was no need to do that.
Anyways it should resolve itself.

[Zack]

You read that in my ISO, huh?

did you not expect me to read it?

[Montmorency]

Anyways it should resolve itself.

That's what they said about Pizza.

[atheotes]

don't fake a red peek a minute to deadline

ever

I understand. but this was an exception.

[Montmorency]

did you not expect me to read it?

I was confused for a second. Just making sure. It will probably help others to point out the context.

[Cass_]

Thought dump from SoD to here.

I feel like I'm going around in circles of tinfoil and need a reread to declutter but ftr off the top of my head.

I disagree that Barto's flip makes Zack look townier but I don't mind Zack's play so far today after the 'go find it yourself'.

I find Winston's progression off Barto/staying off Cuth mechanically suspect but the rest of his ISO has good tone.

I don't think we can lolclear Monty, his EoD comment about Cuth, Fenn, Winston/Schema vs feeling Kill, Kill, Kill, Kill (but don't) Barto are off and I get a feeling of puppet strings with a lot of what I've read from him over the thread - more canvassing/mechanics/commentating than committing to opinions I can understand.

I think there would be very little point to atheotes claiming a scum read on Cuth as scum/can see more motivation in that coming from Town. BSmith has his claim and I think Jabbz' effort at EoD yesterday was clearing enough for now.

Dice's push at Zack over paranoia at me is strange/?too blind considering his own admission that I don't bus, and the fact that there would have been absolutely no need to on D1. OTOH I don't think ScumDice tries to lead that sort of push here unless bussing, which at this point for scum would be risky. Visor's retaliation posts feel opportunistic/reaching, I don't think they're WW.

Monstr got mad rather than dejected with me and I have him as Town<3 for now but he's my secret deepwolf. I'm ignoring tinfoil for now, but ftr it's there - I'll look at it closer in re-read but atp I don't think we worry about him today.

I want to see more from all the thus-far-quiet players early today, particularly Vote: @Al Sipsclar who I've seen play a much wordier/involved game as Town and who has zero questioning of other players in ISO here.
Someone pls let me know if that's been normal for him in Town/Scum games of recent here.

I feel like @Schema has slipped away after a fairly opinionated start and like @Riedquat could be offering more if Town, but isn't.

This isn't meant to throw shade at the lower posters if they're Town, but more to point out that if they are, now is the time they need to step up and get clear.

[atheotes]

That's what they said about Pizza.

Not really. I called his claim fake and he got lynched the next day iirc.

[Zack]

I am banning the word deepwolf

[Zack]

Not really. I called his claim fake and he got lynched the next day iirc.

damn, you just hung your nuts in a few faces

atheotes has ice in his veins

[Montmorency]

Not really. I called his claim fake and he got lynched the next day iirc.

After he was saved, of course. And technically his claim was half-true.

I am banning the word deepwolf

Why?

[Zack]

it's counterproductive and encourages doubting town reads / expanding POE unnecessarily

[Montmorency]

it's counterproductive and encourages doubting town reads / expanding POE unnecessarily

Compared to "WIFOM" or "power-wolf"?

[Zack]

power-wolfing is a specific type of wolfing strategy

wifom is just a buzzword

[Zack]

anyways, I should go to sleep

probably won't be around as much until eod, spent too much time on this today

[Montmorency]

power-wolfing is a specific type of wolfing strategy

wifom is just a buzzword

Don't they encourage expanding POE and doubting townreads? Or is "deepwolf" used only against townreads and the others against scumreads?

[Cass_]

In District 2, BSmith is the towniest now with his claim, but he is less-active and Winston or Visor could easily get one of the other elected in his place. They cannot resist Monstr's election, however. Meanwhile, in a district with high-towns like Monstr and atheotes, one of them will be elected and the other will not be. They will de facto be competing against each other, even as District 2 falls apart.

With my proposed switch we get Monstr Rep for District 2, and atheotes as District 3 (with BSmith available as fallback just in case).

So by that logic, it should also be acceptable to you to switch Atheotes/BSmith? I'd prefer to do that and have each district headed by more mechanically clear players.

Suggesting that D2 will fall apart with BSmith, Winston, Visor, Riedquat in it feels a bit over-dramatised, though you're potentially right IF the last wolves include Winston/Visor. IIRC yesterday you had a problem with Monstr taking the lead over Renata/I.

/shrug

Anyone else want to weigh in on this?

Out to dinner back later tonight, work in the morning.

[Montmorency]

So by that logic, it should also be acceptable to you to switch Atheotes/BSmith? I'd prefer to do that and have each district headed by more mechanically clear players.

Eh, let's try it. Of course it's less difficult for Winston or Visor to argue against atheotes as mechanically clear than the Monstr whom they love so dearly.

Suggesting that D2 will fall apart with BSmith, Winston, Visor, Riedquat in it feels a bit over-dramatised, though you're potentially right IF the last wolves include Winston/Visor. IIRC yesterday you had a problem with Monstr taking the lead over Renata/I.

I suppose in fact I did, but only inasmuch as with any other given player. Did I say anything specific against Monstr-as-Rep in the technical beginning of D3?

Some of my statements that included Monstr:

With 5 districts, you absolutely must take personal leadership of a home district, and elevate atheotes to power as a new man for his towniness. Two of Visor, Zack, Monstrbro, and Winston should be placed so as to be elected Reps. Pick who to exclude from power, and place one of those individuals in your own district

1. Winston/Monstrbro
2. Winston/Monstrbro
3. Fenn/Csargo

And in fact, responding to a proposal by atheotes (page 80):

Personally rather Monstr were Rep than Winston (District 4), and Zack (or whoever in the upper class that doesn't have blessing to become Rep) should sit under Cass (District 2).

So on those terms simply, switch Monstr and Winston, and switch Zack and one of Schema/Al Sips/Barto.

I clearly had no problem with Monstr as Rep. Quite the contrary.

[Jabbz]

...?

whats with the stick in the ass about this post of all things?

I'm simply pointing out yet another instance where Zack is a world class asshole. I've honestly barely enjoyed this game, and it lays entirely on his method of engagement. If I wanted to listen to childish people insult each other for days at a time I'd go back to playing Dota.

but that's your only quibble?

no speech about how the way it's constructed is an artful manipulation of the collective psyche of the esteemed players in this venerable game we call mafia/werewolf/an exercise in frustration?

no belligerent rant on what i said about monty on this page? was practically baiting you

I don't think you're scum, I just think your an ass.

[Cass_]

I was just encouraging Renata to change her vote. I felt resolving Cuth could give us more information.
It did not happen. so i resolved El Barto.

I understand. but this was an exception.

Tbh this was not one of the answers I was expecting if you were/are Town and I can't get my head around it from a 'more likely Town' perspective with that explanation.

What was the exception?

[Cass_]

/Snip Vote: @Al Sipsclar who I've seen play a much wordier/involved game as Town and who has zero questioning of other players in ISO here.
Someone pls let me know if that's been normal for him in Town/Scum games of recent here.

FTR ISO'd Al Sips in Visor's Small Mafia (Town) and Tokens of my Confection (Maf) myself. AFAICT he's actually wordier/more involved in the latter so my meta is probably outdated/imo zero questioning here is null in itself. Still want to see him more involved in this game.

*Offers chocolate*