Israel Thread

[LittleGrizzly]

Maybe someone can correct me on this and provide some really good reasons why it was done now right at the end of his final term in office....

But I can't help but feel this is just complete cowardice, Obama has decided to finally stand up and do the right thing now that there is very little chance it can harm him. Almost anybody can do the right thing in that situation.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Maybe someone can correct me on this and provide some really good reasons why it was done now right at the end of his final term in office....

But I can't help but feel this is just complete cowardice, Obama has decided to finally stand up and do the right thing now that there is very little chance it can harm him. Almost anybody can do the right thing in that situation.

Its just his way of flipping off Bebe on the way out. Not meant to be a substantive thing.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

It's a bit more than that - it finally gets a resolution on the books, one voted for by everyone but the US. That sends a significant message to the people of Israel on both sides of the argument - settlement building is not acceptable, it is illegal.

It also provoked a reaction from the Israeli Government that frankly betrays just how bizarre their position is.

It's not as much as the World needs, but it's something, more than nothing.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Israel will continue to colonize their conquered territories. They will do this until someone stops them with armed force (not annoys them or hurts them).

[LittleGrizzly]

I think its symbolic, but coming so late in the Obama administration and with such a pro-Israeli president about to be inaugurated it'll mean very little.

I do slightly disagree with the above assessment though, if Israeli got a similar treatment to the one Apartheid South Africa got then they would be forced to relent as so many voters would lose out financially. There may be enough support to keep the settlements going when it doesn't really cost Israeli's that much but if they started taking big financial hits then that support might disappear quite quickly.

[Montmorency]

I think its symbolic, but coming so late in the Obama administration and with such a pro-Israeli president about to be inaugurated it'll mean very little.

I do slightly disagree with the above assessment though, if Israeli got a similar treatment to the one Apartheid South Africa got then they would be forced to relent as so many voters would lose out financially. There may be enough support to keep the settlements going when it doesn't really cost Israeli's that much but if they started taking big financial hits then that support might disappear quite quickly.

This is a pitfall I think too many are lured in by.

1. Sanctions and disinvestment had very little concrete effect on the South African economy, and temporarily bolstered support for white supremacist rule. That is the flaw of principle for the comparison.
2. Sanctions were undertaken as political will allowed, meaning the lowest hanging fruit; this contributed to the largely-symbolic effect of sanctions by the countries undertaking them. Countries from whom sanctions on Israel would count most have the most to lose from them, in turn lowering political will.
3. Alternative economic partners are more readily found in today's world than in the 80s and 90s.
4. The political regime in South Africa was steadily weakening, while in Israel it is steadily strengthening - perhaps more appropriately said, it is hardening.
5. Afrikaners projected power outwards from white enclaves, while Israelis project power inward to Palestinian enclaves. Jewish supremacists lording over a Jewish state with minor colonial holdings (or else genuine apartheid with full administration of Palestinians as second-class citizens) stands on much firmer ground than white supremacists trying to hold tens of millions of black Africans in thrall, in the midst of a black African geography.
6. Palestinian Arabs are not looked upon favorably by the European mass, the American mass, the Israeli mass, or even the Arab mass. The Russians and Chinese would prefer they remain a restive thorn, if anything.
7. Black South Africans had the paradoxical advantage of both numbers in comparison to Palestinians and of not really being anything like a single cohesive ethnic group (to the extent Palestinians may be such).

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I think its symbolic, but coming so late in the Obama administration and with such a pro-Israeli president about to be inaugurated it'll mean very little.

I do slightly disagree with the above assessment though, if Israeli got a similar treatment to the one Apartheid South Africa got then they would be forced to relent as so many voters would lose out financially. There may be enough support to keep the settlements going when it doesn't really cost Israeli's that much but if they started taking big financial hits then that support might disappear quite quickly.

Possibly, but they have been somewhat of a pariah state as it is.

When they concede the settlements, the next point will be Jerusalem and full control of the West Bank as Palestine. After that, the next step is to continue the pressure until they forfeit all of the lands not accorded them by the 1947 mandate or to compensate/underwrite Palestine in lieu of "the right of return."

Moreover, since a Jewish state on the Arabian peninsula is anathema too all the hard core Salafist types, the violence never stops no matter what concessions are made.


The conflict in Israel/Palestine will cease when the Jews have been wiped out or the bulk of Arab cultures actually shift towards modernity.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Possibly, but they have been somewhat of a pariah state as it is.

When they concede the settlements, the next point will be Jerusalem and full control of the West Bank as Palestine. After that, the next step is to continue the pressure until they forfeit all of the lands not accorded them by the 1947 mandate or to compensate/underwrite Palestine in lieu of "the right of return."

Moreover, since a Jewish state on the Arabian peninsula is anathema too all the hard core Salafist types, the violence never stops no matter what concessions are made.


The conflict in Israel/Palestine will cease when the Jews have been wiped out or the bulk of Arab cultures actually shift towards modernity.

Israel is a state established by terror and forced expulsion, it's also a major Cause Celebre for extremist Islam.

It is for these reasons that it is in constant danger, but that does not give them the right to oppress the Palestinians. In reality, Israel is not a viable state as it is, it is currently only half a state, caught between stability and annihilation.