Brexit Thread

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

So Gibraltar is basically proof of what happens when you don't exterminate an immigrant enclave fast enough?

Apparently it was taken in an opportune moment when there was internal turmoil, much like a peninsula that was formerly part of Ukraine (and also partially an immigrant enclave)...

So this is fair, then?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...mats-say-spain

The EU will not back down in its support for Spain’s demands when it comes to the Rock of Gibraltar in Brexit negotiations, senior European diplomats have said. The European council, whose members comprise the EU member states, shocked Downing Street by saying the British overseas territory could be included in a trade deal between London and Brussels only with Spain’s agreement.

A little background from Le Gruniard:

Ever since the Anglo-Dutch fleet captured Gibraltar 313 years ago during the war of Spanish succession, the small territory at the southern tip of Spain has been a bone of contention between Madrid and London. Although British sovereignty was formalised by the treaty of Utrecht in 1713 and Gibraltar became a British colony in 1830, Spain has always bristled at the idea of UK ownership. Two referendums - in 1967 and 2002 - have shown that the overwhelming majority of residents wish Gibraltar to remain British. Despite accusations of double standards given its two enclaves in north Africa, Spain has refused to relinquish its claim.

Your comparison with Ukraine is helpful, though, because it highlight why Lord Howard said what he did. The message seems to be lost on the Left but it is the same sentiment as with the Falklands viz:

"We will not abandon our citizens to you and we will not allow you to subjugate them by force."

This is not "sabre rattling", it is simply a grim statement of fact, we will not let our people be subjugated by force.

Despite this both Spain and Argentina inflict hardship upon enclaves that have been British longer than living memory primarily out of spite.

War with Spain is virtually impossible though because of the NATO treaty, if Spain were to invade Gibraltar the rest of NATO, including the EU would be honour-bound to oppose them.

So in less then half a year there is talk about war in Western Europe. Im sure Putin is laughing himself senseless and Trump is ready to offer Britain the deal of their lives as vassal of US. This is exactly why EU should remain and the only redeeming factor is that anyone in Europe is idiot enough to actually start a war over few rocks at Gibraltar. Sometimes the amount of human stupidity is just too much to handle.

That's one way to look at it, the other is to recognise this canker has been festering since 2002 and the EU just papered over it. That the EU now sides with Spain against the Gibraltarns after a referendum where 99% rejected joint sovereignty is, in my view, just another argument in favour of leaving.

[Pannonian]

That's one way to look at it, the other is to recognise this canker has been festering since 2002 and the EU just papered over it. That the EU now sides with Spain against the Gibraltarns after a referendum where 99% rejected joint sovereignty is, in my view, just another argument in favour of leaving.

You'd argue that anything in the world is yet another argument in favour of leaving. One of your clinching arguments was that, with the separation from the EU, Westminster no longer has that excuse for failing. Ie. that leaving is nothing to do with the EU, but entirely because Westminster has failed. If you find that your browser stopped working after the latest update, you'd say that it's just yet more reason why we need to leave the EU, as we need to eliminate that possibility from the reasons why your browser may have failed.

[Husar]

So this is fair, then?

Of course it is fair. Britain voted to leave the EU to take care of its own national interests. There were people on this forum saying it is better to have competing nations and the nation state is the ultimate soandso. Now that Britain is not in a bloc with Spain anymore, Spain is thinking about acting in its own self interest against a now-competing nation. The EU only acts in its own self interest when it supports the claims of a member over those of a leaving or non-member. British people claimed it's some holy form of behavior to act in national self-interest and are now crying about others doing the same? You've been warned and you said you wanted, preferred this. Now deal with it.

The whole hypocrisy thing is nonexistant and inconsequential in a world of self-interest and competition.
The argument about how long it has been British is even more true for Ceuta and Melilla, they have been Spanish for even longer. The thing is what changed ownership 300 years ago can do so again, that's the way of the world you voted for. And in whose favor was the referendum in 1713 anyway?

[Montmorency]

There's not much scope to fight anyway. Does Spain bomb out the entire peninsula? Do ships engage and get sunk around the strait, completely closing the Mediterranean to the world? Does Britain drop bombs and missiles just at the peninsula, or on targets throughout the mainland? What happens with Morocco?

If the world could in fact tolerate this war, then Spain would be in the position to win, i.e. achieve its goal of dominating Gibraltar. There would be no way to expel Spanish forces without obliterating the entire piece of land.

Funny to discuss, but not a real conflict for the time being.

[Kagemusha]

So summa summarum. With aid of both Britain and Spain, the trade treaty between Britain and EU fall`s short. British pro Brexiters take that as evidence that Brexit was the righteous thing to do. British economy take`s a major hit. What next?

Britain with her problematic economical future take`s an adamant stand at NATO together with Trumpist US that all members have to commit to 2% spending of GDP, which Germany with some other countries reject, with arguments like their larger spending to overseas development aid, dividing the NATO, could such be possible next?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

So summa summarum. With aid of both Britain and Spain, the trade treaty between Britain and EU fall`s short. British pro Brexiters take that as evidence that Brexit was the righteous thing to do. British economy take`s a major hit. What next?

Britain with her problematic economical future take`s an adamant stand at NATO together with Trumpist US that all members have to commit to 2% spending of GDP, which Germany with some other countries reject, with arguments like their larger spending to overseas development aid, dividing the NATO, could such be possible next?

We shall see what actually happens.

I will be surprised if the EU actually allows Spain to choke Gibraltar by the throat. One would hope basic humanity would prevent that. On the other hand, the EU continues to throttle Greece.

[Pannonian]

We shall see what actually happens.

I will be surprised if the EU actually allows Spain to choke Gibraltar by the throat. One would hope basic humanity would prevent that. On the other hand, the EU continues to throttle Greece.

OTOH, any agreement needs to be ratified by all members. Spain doesn't need to choke Gibraltar. All they need to do is not ratify any agreement, and there is no UK-EU agreement (as has been the case with Canada and Belgium for quite some time). When the spectre of Turkish membership was raised by kippers, this basic mechanic should have been pointed out as our safeguard. The mechanic still exists, but it's likely to work against us as we're now the ones outside.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

You'd argue that anything in the world is yet another argument in favour of leaving. One of your clinching arguments was that, with the separation from the EU, Westminster no longer has that excuse for failing. Ie. that leaving is nothing to do with the EU, but entirely because Westminster has failed. If you find that your browser stopped working after the latest update, you'd say that it's just yet more reason why we need to leave the EU, as we need to eliminate that possibility from the reasons why your browser may have failed.

Oh, so you found that convincing, then?

What I actually said was that having an over-arching authority that people feel is unaccountable is bad for democracy, and that with that removed we would, at least, be masters of our own destiny.

Of course it is fair. Britain voted to leave the EU to take care of its own national interests. There were people on this forum saying it is better to have competing nations and the nation state is the ultimate soandso. Now that Britain is not in a bloc with Spain anymore, Spain is thinking about acting in its own self interest against a now-competing nation. The EU only acts in its own self interest when it supports the claims of a member over those of a leaving or non-member. British people claimed it's some holy form of behavior to act in national self-interest and are now crying about others doing the same? You've been warned and you said you wanted, preferred this. Now deal with it.

The whole hypocrisy thing is nonexistant and inconsequential in a world of self-interest and competition.
The argument about how long it has been British is even more true for Ceuta and Melilla, they have been Spanish for even longer. The thing is what changed ownership 300 years ago can do so again, that's the way of the world you voted for. And in whose favor was the referendum in 1713 anyway?

So the 30,000 Gibraltarns should be used as a scapegoat when the talks fail?

If we agreed to stay in the single market Gibraltar should be excluded unless we hand over at least partial control to the Spanish?

I never argued for mercenary self-interest, others have argued that but I have been very clear that, for me, this was about the fact that I don't want to be part of an unaccountable, un-democratic Bloc.

Anyway, the EU is supposed to be about peace, prosperity and co-operation - internally and externally. You posted a video to that effect just a little while ago, did you not?

[Pannonian]

Oh, so you found that convincing, then?

What I actually said was that having an over-arching authority that people feel is unaccountable is bad for democracy, and that with that removed we would, at least, be masters of our own destiny.

Living in England, I don't feel like a master of my own destiny. At least not until the centre left successor to the Labour party runs for election. It's going to be a Tory government, most likely tending towards its right wing to placate the UKIP wing, until such an eventuality. I expect this to last at least another decade, possibly multiple, especially if Scotland splits off.

And BTW, self determination is a liberal (hence leftist) argument. Rightist arguments revolve around states.

[Husar]

I never argued for mercenary self-interest, others have argued that but I have been very clear that, for me, this was about the fact that I don't want to be part of an unaccountable, un-democratic Bloc.

That's the thing, you can't have one without the other it seems and apparently you weighed your options and made your choice together with your fellow countrymen. The result is visible now.

Anyway, the EU is supposed to be about peace, prosperity and co-operation - internally and externally. You posted a video to that effect just a little while ago, did you not?

That video was full of useless rhetoric, or did you think I posted that unaware of my blaming Greyblades for using useless rhetoric just a few days earlier when the made a similarly useless statement? It was accompanied by a sneaking smiley for a reason. It would be nice if the EU could be about these things, but Brexit clearly showed the EU that it needs to be more competitive to keep its members since compassionate actions such as taking care of refugees triggered the Brexit and made other countries angry as well. The people of this world want the world to be this way and so it is, I just adapt to the will of the people and punch them in the face for my self-interest.

Maybe after the next World War they will want peace again and say this can't ever happen again until they get bored 70 years later and want more "self-interest" again.

[Brenus]

So the 30,000 Gibraltarns should be used as a scapegoat when the talks fail

Well, now now, what do you think I feel when T. May uses me and others EU foreigners in UK as human shield for the future negotiation? The silence of the British is deafening.