UK General Election 2017

[Greyblades]

We should legalize social studies student hunting.

[Fragony]

We should legalize social studies student hunting.

As Good idea but try missing me, I know it's bullsgit it were just (really) easy points

[Seamus Fermanagh]

We should legalize social studies student hunting.

Seems a bit broad. Any student studying "social studies?"

Social sciences in general? Or sociology?

All students? Grad students? Are those who have completed their piled-highest-and-deepest a protected class while their students are fair game?

[Husar]

The real question is why?

Just the usual fascist alt-right argument of "It's all bogus anyway and only SJWs study it!" ?

It's especially sad coming from someone who says their concerns are not relevant anymore in modern politics. Instead of chasing away the social studies people like sociologists, you should demand they get more say in government than they currently do, because they may actually improve things for those people forgotten by politics and economists. See linked article for more: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/17/u...ists.html?_r=0

[Strike For The South]

Population control is necessary for a healthy ecosystem.

im not sure how it works in the U.K. But here hunters and fishers tend to do the most for conservation.

[Husar]

Population control is necessary for a healthy ecosystem.

im not sure how it works in the U.K. But here hunters and fishers tend to do the most for conservation.

You mean after they killed all the natural predators they now pretend that the ecosystem can't work on its own?

[Pannonian]

You mean after they killed all the natural predators they now pretend that the ecosystem can't work on its own?

A bit late to start regretting the loss of natural predators/competition for foxes. The last wolves seen in England were around 13th/14th century.

[Idaho]

Population control is necessary for a healthy ecosystem.

im not sure how it works in the U.K. But here hunters and fishers tend to do the most for conservation.

Numerous hunts in the UK used to feed foxes to make sure there were enough to hunt. So the pest control argument falls flat.

Still, if ripping up small dogs is your thing, crack on.

[Strike For The South]

You mean after they killed all the natural predators they now pretend that the ecosystem can't work on its own?

or they are an invasive species or they are able take advantage of human habitation practices or sometimes populations simply become out of control. Nature is not harmony, stewardship is required.

Numerous hunts in the UK used to feed foxes to make sure there were enough to hunt. So the pest control argument falls flat.

Still, if ripping up small dogs is your thing, crack on.

I mean that's not particularly sporting but it doesn't change the fact the fox population needs to be managed.

[Husar]

A bit late to start regretting the loss of natural predators/competition for foxes. The last wolves seen in England were around 13th/14th century.

Simple, reintroduce wolves. If they eat a few Englishmen as well now and then it dampens all the problems Strike mentions.

or they are an invasive species or they are able take advantage of human habitation practices or sometimes populations simply become out of control. Nature is not harmony, stewardship is required.

Most of that is indeed due to human influence. This wouldn't be necessary if we lived in caves and ate a few of them now and again.
Predators starve naturally if they overhunt, just like we will once we've cleared the oceans and destroyed our soils.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Numerous hunts in the UK used to feed foxes to make sure there were enough to hunt. So the pest control argument falls flat.

Still, if ripping up small dogs is your thing, crack on.

Like I say, never heard of this so it can't have been pervasive. Mind you, North Devon never lacked for mangy foxes, and I mean that literally.

[Beskar]

I mean that's not particularly sporting but it doesn't change the fact the fox population needs to be managed.

Yet hunters and sponsored extermination practices don't work. Significantly more die to mange than to hunters (as PVC liked to point out with 'mangy foxes'). Practices to secure fencing do better than hunting in eliminating 'chicken coop massacres' described. There is even the concept of feeding local foxes so they don't need to try to break into enclosures. Foxes also control their own populations with their breeding patterns. If you go on killing sprees, the foxes breed significantly more and there is influx from migration, reducing in more foxes in the area in the following spring.

Fox Hunting is simply a sadistic sport where aristocrats glamour up with their red-coats and stick hordes of dogs on foxes for 'sport'. If we are going to be really truthful on the subject, the hunting ban stops packs of dogs, the hunts can continue with two dogs to flush them out, so 'ban' is probably the wrong word to use.

We are not talking about some random farmer having to deal with a fox inside of a chicken coop. The hunting ban doesn't affect this in the slightest.

[Gilrandir]

Not really. There are different reasons for drug addiction, but majority of it comes from terrible life circumstances. This clip explains it really well:

There are indeed different reason for drug addiction as well as there are drugs different in their price which determines different income categories of the abusers. But while not denying vicissitudes of fortune as an important reason for drug abuse, I can't agree on it being the major one. In the USSR drug addiction was predominantly the amusement of the well-to-do youths whose parents had warm positions among the Communist party elite.

[Furunculus]

Fox Hunting is simply a sadistic sport where aristocrats glamour up with their red-coats and stick hordes of dogs on foxes for 'sport'.

in my limited experience it is very much a working class affair, a collective participation of rural communities.

[Sarmatian]

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Yet hunters and sponsored extermination practices don't work. Significantly more die to mange than to hunters (as PVC liked to point out with 'mangy foxes').

Mangy foxes are an Urban problem, resulting from poor sanitation and over-breeding due to complete lack of control and ample food source. Urban Councils would dump mangy foxes in the country side rather than exterminating them (or treating them). This was considered more humane. From the Urban population mange would spread into rural foxes.

Practices to secure fencing do better than hunting in eliminating 'chicken coop massacres' described.

This isn't really true, for reasons already described. Fencing alone is not a solution.

There is even the concept of feeding local foxes so they don't need to try to break into enclosures.

Yes, please, convince the foxes to move in, long term, to multiply and then tell me what happens when the farmer doesn't have enough money to spend on the luxury of feeding pests to bribe them from killing his livestock. This is the same thinking as behind Danegeld, pay the predator to leave, be surprised when he comes back.

Foxes also control their own populations with their breeding patterns.

Manifestly not true - see "Urban Foxes".

If you go on killing sprees, the foxes breed significantly more and there is influx from migration, reducing in more foxes in the area in the following spring.

Hunting is not a "killing spree" though. A "Killing Spree" is conducted at night from a blind with a rifle and a scope over the course of a month, several times a week. Hunts are conducted during the day with a large, loud, pack of dogs, once a week or less over the course of several months. Hunters primarily target healthy foxes, Hunts primarily target sickly ones.

Fox Hunting is simply a sadistic sport where aristocrats glamour up with their red-coats and stick hordes of dogs on foxes for 'sport'.

1. Most people aren't in it for the killing, very few are in it to see the animal suffer.

2. Most hunters are not aristocrats - that's urban class prejudice that says only the wealthy own horses and ride for please. I'm not wealthy, nor is my sister or mother, we all ride. Most of my friends ride, as do MOST farmers and their children in traditional farming communities.

3. Most people on a hunt do not wear the red coat, many hunts do not even have red coats, but blue or green.

You're three for three on not understanding the culture here - please - stop pretending to know anything about the inner workings of people you have never met and start listening to what they say instead.

If we are going to be really truthful on the subject, the hunting ban stops packs of dogs, the hunts can continue with two dogs to flush them out, so 'ban' is probably the wrong word to use.

Two dogs is a practically useless number, you need at least four. The only thing you can use two dogs to hunt is rabbits. The irony being that rabbit hunting with Lurchers is much more cruel than anything done to foxes.

We are not talking about some random farmer having to deal with a fox inside of a chicken coop. The hunting ban doesn't affect this in the slightest.

Of course it does, the hunting Ban changes the way we hunt and kill foxes, which affects their demographics and breeding patterns - as you already noted. In fact, just by removing this regular, cyclical, form of hunting you have disrupted rural ecosystems and presented farmers with foxes that behave differently, and require different counter-measures not previously employed.

[Strike For The South]

I don't understand the use of dogs at all. Why put the little guys in harms way?

[Montmorency]

Reading through wiki it seems systematic fox hunting has a minimal effect for the purpose of population control and management, and that "shooting, poisoning, and fencing" are superior methods.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I don't understand the use of dogs at all. Why put the little guys in harms way?

Hunting with dogs as partners -- and often the killing tool in the hunt -- is a very old tradition in Europe. Goes back at least to Celtic times with their legends of the Wild Hunt and so on.

[Pannonian]

Mangy foxes are an Urban problem, resulting from poor sanitation and over-breeding due to complete lack of control and ample food source. Urban Councils would dump mangy foxes in the country side rather than exterminating them (or treating them). This was considered more humane. From the Urban population mange would spread into rural foxes.

This isn't really true, for reasons already described. Fencing alone is not a solution.

Yes, please, convince the foxes to move in, long term, to multiply and then tell me what happens when the farmer doesn't have enough money to spend on the luxury of feeding pests to bribe them from killing his livestock. This is the same thinking as behind Danegeld, pay the predator to leave, be surprised when he comes back.

Manifestly not true - see "Urban Foxes".

Hunting is not a "killing spree" though. A "Killing Spree" is conducted at night from a blind with a rifle and a scope over the course of a month, several times a week. Hunts are conducted during the day with a large, loud, pack of dogs, once a week or less over the course of several months. Hunters primarily target healthy foxes, Hunts primarily target sickly ones.

1. Most people aren't in it for the killing, very few are in it to see the animal suffer.

2. Most hunters are not aristocrats - that's urban class prejudice that says only the wealthy own horses and ride for please. I'm not wealthy, nor is my sister or mother, we all ride. Most of my friends ride, as do MOST farmers and their children in traditional farming communities.

3. Most people on a hunt do not wear the red coat, many hunts do not even have red coats, but blue or green.

You're three for three on not understanding the culture here - please - stop pretending to know anything about the inner workings of people you have never met and start listening to what they say instead.

Two dogs is a practically useless number, you need at least four. The only thing you can use two dogs to hunt is rabbits. The irony being that rabbit hunting with Lurchers is much more cruel than anything done to foxes.

Of course it does, the hunting Ban changes the way we hunt and kill foxes, which affects their demographics and breeding patterns - as you already noted. In fact, just by removing this regular, cyclical, form of hunting you have disrupted rural ecosystems and presented farmers with foxes that behave differently, and require different counter-measures not previously employed.

What I'd like to see figures for, if possible, from the past, if not, then from a limited reintroduction for the purpose of producing stats, is how successful these hunts are. Poisoning, hidden shooting and other non-discriminatory methods take both unhealthy and healthy foxes alike. If hunting with dogs weeds out the diseased and only the least athletic of the other foxes, then it might be the most natural method. If it has an extremely high success rate, then it's not much more useful than other non-discriminatory methods in keeping the general population healthy. Most hunts in nature end in failure.

[Strike For The South]

Hunting with dogs as partners -- and often the killing tool in the hunt -- is a very old tradition in Europe. Goes back at least to Celtic times with their legends of the Wild Hunt and so on.

You shoot the bird and the pupper goes and gets it. You don't make the dog do the work, philistines.

[Gilrandir]

Is it somehow symbolic that the discussion of British elections came down to discussing foxes?

[Husar]

You shoot the bird and the pupper goes and gets it. You don't make the dog do the work, philistines.

Foxes can fly in the UK?
I guess everything is really better there than on the continent.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

What I'd like to see figures for, if possible, from the past, if not, then from a limited reintroduction for the purpose of producing stats, is how successful these hunts are. Poisoning, hidden shooting and other non-discriminatory methods take both unhealthy and healthy foxes alike. If hunting with dogs weeds out the diseased and only the least athletic of the other foxes, then it might be the most natural method. If it has an extremely high success rate, then it's not much more useful than other non-discriminatory methods in keeping the general population healthy. Most hunts in nature end in failure.

I can't give you figures, but I can tell you anecdotally that many hunts would end in failure.

Is it somehow symbolic that the discussion of British elections came down to discussing foxes?

Yes, it's seen as a class issue. The Labour party banned fox hunting - ostensibly because it's cruel but really because about two centuries ago an alliance of Tories and Liberals caused baiting of Dogs, Bears and Badgers to be banned.

Hunting is a "Field Sport" in British parlance because you go out into "the field" and hunt, and properly fail. However, the League Against Cruel Sports classifies it as a "Blood Sport" alongside the aforementioned baitings.

[Gilrandir]

Yes, it's seen as a class issue. The Labour party banned fox hunting - ostensibly because it's cruel but really because about two centuries ago an alliance of Tories and Liberals caused baiting of Dogs, Bears and Badgers to be banned.

Hunting is a "Field Sport" in British parlance because you go out into "the field" and hunt, and properly fail. However, the League Against Cruel Sports classifies it as a "Blood Sport" alongside the aforementioned baitings.

Then just hold a poll on the attitude to fox hunting and skip the elections altogether. Will save much money anyway.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

So, I actually couldn't actually bring myself to vote yesterday, but crikey.

Labour battered, UKIP wiped out.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39810488

[Montmorency]

Net gains and losses in the hundreds, and apparently the majority of results have not even been declared yet.

[Elmetiacos]

So, I actually couldn't actually bring myself to vote yesterday, but crikey.

Labour battered, UKIP wiped out.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39810488

The people's verdict: BAA-AA-AA-AH!

[Beskar]

We knew UKIP died, but it seems their decline is the Conservatives net-gain.

[Greyblades]

It was inevitable; a one issue party dies the second it wins and it can only be resurrected by having that victory reversed post fact.