Pokemon Nuzlocke FireRed Mafia [Concluded]

[Zack]

Posting right away to mention that I used up my block on Monty because I have no idea what I'm doing and still don't.

But it's suspicious of me to push him and he's a strong town read...

[SeveringViper]

Okay, so:

1. OMGUS, which I told you not to list but you still did anyways.


2. Not sure what you mean. This describes you more than me.


3. So it's an associative read? You don't like people voicing suspicion of you, so they're wolves?


4. That seems circular.


Nope.

1. Oh, so voting someone for pushing a insultingly terrible case all day so far is OMGUS just because it happens to have your name?

2.

@GeneralHankerchief

you've been active in the forum all day. are you just idling on your phone or what?

-Poking GH in an insulting tone (and I haven't seen his activity outside the game, but I'd think they're decently sizeable posts or this is a silly and dumb poke, right?)

His reads have been static and contrived.

-Discrediting his reads and thoughts in addition to your painting him as tunneling.

So he's not a PR? Are you trolling me?

-Misrepresenting and insulting me.

Your last question is nonsensical.

-Ignoring and discrediting said question.

@Manasi

here's an email notification since you seemingly forgot about the game

-More poking people in an insulting way, then ignoring her after that to go back to me and Monty.

Stop being petty and do something more productive please.

-Mocking me for being petty over fighting the rotting garbage of a case you've been trying to push today.

So it describes me more, huh? Go on, show me what you mean, then. I've shown yours.

3. Yes, if and when you flip wolf (as I expect), your interactions today don't look good for Novice. And more misrepresenting/discrediting for 2., thanks.

4. What? Are you or are you not setting up Monty to be lynched next?

(You missed) 5. Fine.

[El Barto]

All right, Mr. Jabbz. While I go through your quotes, may I ask you why you voted for Zack so strangely last phase?

[El Barto]

Meanwhile, Mr. Viper, have you ever played with Zack before?

[Montmorency]

I don't know what to make of Viper anymore. Novice and Zack may well be scum, but the fact that they are being hard on you doesn't indicate that they are teamed. Recall that novice had Choxorn/Zack tied D2. And even if that were bussing, I don't believe they would interact so much afterward. Some of the things you said recently are difficult to interpret; others may be misunderstood. I see a straightforward way to clear up the counterclaim question for one, but I won't answer for you. Just approach it literally and move on. At least explain your impressions and thinking from N3 to morning.

FYI, when Jabbz had his first game with Zack last year, the two had a row over tone and style similar to what's happening now. Zack has a relatively-abrasive way of interacting, and you may be especially sensitive right now. See what you get if you re-evaluate his posts in that light.

I want to vote Champ to benchmark the wagon, but I don't want to be locked into that for the sake of helping Viper. GH and Barto need to be talked about more.

@Logic, please explain your antidote shortlist.

[SeveringViper]

So, Zack tells you to not be petty, and then you double-down on doing exactly the opposite?

Why don't you look at my given explanation, hm?

While I am engaged in a battle with my printer, please look at Zack's latest post (#1168) for an answer, my viperine friend.

Well then.

But it's suspicious of me to push him and he's a strong town read...

a, I never said I trusted him completely. B. No. I dislike your push of Monty, because he absolutely is a stronger town read than you, but I suspect you for the insultingly bad push on me. And again, no, that is not an OMGUS, the case is just too blatantly bad and I can't believe town is pushing it.

[Zack]

warning: multi-quotes

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

1. Oh, so voting someone for pushing a insultingly terrible case all day so far is OMGUS just because it happens to have your name?

That's beside the point, really. I asked you to list reasons other than me voicing suspicion of you.

2.

So it describes me more, huh? Go on, show me what you mean, then. I've shown yours.

Those examples are mostly either me poking lightheartedly at friends or being overblown.

I can't tell if you're being serious, but you have been combative all game. In a specific example, you repeatedly keep calling anything you don't like "stupid, dumb, garbage", etc and have pretty clearly been engaging me in a way that isn't exactly courteous and respectful.

3. Yes, if and when you flip wolf (as I expect), your interactions today don't look good for Novice. And more misrepresenting/discrediting for 2., thanks.

Okay. Isn't that sort of associative read something you called me stupid wolfy garbage for doing?

4. What? Are you or are you not setting up Monty to be lynched next?

I'm scummy because I pushed someone not as scummy as me seems like circular reasoning. You hadn't voiced any suspicion of me yesterday when I was pushing Monty's lynch that I remember. You blocked him last night anyways, so your claim that he's such a strong town read of yours seems dubious.

(You missed) 5. Fine.

Huh? I quoted and responded to everything.

[Zack]

Why don't you look at my given explanation, hm?

Well then.


a, I never said I trusted him completely. B. No. I dislike your push of Monty, because he absolutely is a stronger town read than you, but I suspect you for the insultingly bad push on me. And again, no, that is not an OMGUS, the case is just too blatantly bad and I can't believe town is pushing it.

Then why did you open the day saying you completely understand why someone would push to lynch you.

[El Barto]

I find a most distressing link between Jabbz and Logic. On Day One:

This post makes me strongly suspect logic is vanilla town, based on the phrasing of my role pm.

After that day:

I have logic as basically confirmed town, so I would love to hear what you have to say that would confirm him as wolf instead. That way I can decide whether you are just using poor arguments, or are being shifty AF.

When novice questioned your reasons:

I covered that on day 1 IIRC. There is something he said about his role that meshes well with my understanding of my role, which is the same as what he claims. While it is possible that he is coming at that understanding from a different perspective, IE Scum getting access to pm text for town, I find it unlikely scum would come to the same conclusion due to their context being different. I would comment deeper on it but I risk hedging too close to talking about PM's at that point, so I cant.

Then you say, a few posts further down you mention owing Zack a read on Montmorency (see below).

And on Day Four:

Also
Vote: Logic

Why Logic? (…)

It is quite likely that there is a deeper connection between the two of you. Your continued defence of him as ‘lock town’ based on the one first-day post is quite baffling.
More ludic, or possibly lucid, minds should converge on this, I think.

So I've gone back and reread Monty. I'm not a fan of his inconsistencies, or his zeroing in on GHC when he is not here to defend himself. In addition to that I mislike the idea of lynching GHC when he has justifiable reasons for not engaging in substantial self defense. As I stated earlier, I'm down to rake him across the coals tomorrow, but doing so today seems to be less than ideal both because we increase our chance of lynching town, but also because we get less valid information to work with whether he pops town or scum.

Given the tie, and the fact that I know I am town: Vote: Montmorency.

So, what do you think of that cunicular user, as of this new Day Phase?

[Zack]

FYI, when Jabbz had his first game with Zack last year, the two had a row over tone and style similar to what's happening now. Zack has a relatively-abrasive way of interacting, and you may be especially sensitive right now. See what you get if you re-evaluate his posts in that light.

I take issue with this. I've tried to stay pretty level-headed going back and forth with someone who keeps lashing out and calling my arguments stupid garbage and the like. He is being much more abrasive than I.

[SeveringViper]

Meanwhile, Mr. Viper, have you ever played with Zack before?

Can you convince me this matters?

I don't know what to make of Viper anymore. Novice and Zack may well be scum, but the fact that they are being hard on you doesn't indicate that they are teamed. Recall that novice had Choxorn/Zack tied D2. And even if that were bussing, I don't believe they would interact so much afterward. Some of the things you said recently are difficult to interpret; others may be misunderstood. I see a straightforward way to clear up the counterclaim question for one, but I won't answer for you. Just approach it literally and move on. At least explain your impressions and thinking from N3 to morning.

FYI, when Jabbz had his first game with Zack last year, the two had a row over tone and style similar to what's happening now. Zack has a relatively-abrasive way of interacting, and you may be especially sensitive right now. See what you get if you re-evaluate his posts in that light.

That's not why I connect them, please stop assuming OMGUS, thanks. Good point about D1, let me look back at the vote timings/progression. Is that a meta read or just a general statement about scum behavior? Can you list the things you find hard to interpret? The counterclaim question is a joke as I've already explained, and I've given my impressions and thinking on N3 and today already.

No. I'm just as relatively abrasive if not more, and I've listed and explained the difference in what Zack has said and done a few posts ago. I think I've been trying to evaluate posts by content and intent/effect over tone so far, do tell me if and where you don't see that and think I'm being sensitive, please.

[El Barto]

Can you convince me this matters?

You seem to take offence at his tone. He is, not infrequently, far more ‘abrasive’ as he has been called.

[SeveringViper]

warning: multi-quotes

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

That's beside the point, really. I asked you to list reasons other than me voicing suspicion of you.


Those examples are mostly either me poking lightheartedly at friends or being overblown.

I can't tell if you're being serious, but you have been combative all game. In a specific example, you repeatedly keep calling anything you don't like "stupid, dumb, garbage", etc and have pretty clearly been engaging me in a way that isn't exactly courteous and respectful.


Okay. Isn't that sort of associative read something you called me stupid wolfy garbage for doing?


I'm scummy because I pushed someone not as scummy as me seems like circular reasoning. You hadn't voiced any suspicion of me yesterday when I was pushing Monty's lynch that I remember. You blocked him last night anyways, so your claim that he's such a strong town read of yours seems dubious.


Huh? I quoted and responded to everything.

And I gave reasons beside that you were suspecting me.

Okay.

Okay, nice, you caught me, I'm aggressive in pushing things and abrasive and confrontational when I think something is based in/using poor reasoning. Tell me, is there anything I've called stupid/garbage where I've been absolutely unwilling to explain why?

Correct, that's why I'm not giving it any weight unless and until you flip wolf. I've already stated what I would point to.


So maybe I didn't suspect you then, because I actually thought you had some points and Monty wasn't exactly lock town? I explained why I chose him, now and before. Again, stronger than you. And you know, someone can be a strong town read and you can still be open to considering otherwise? Poor town lock someone in and refuse to act on the possibility they might be wrong.

That was a joke on how you left out 5. on your list despite having one final statement I replied to there.

Then why did you open the day saying you completely understand why someone would push to lynch you.

Because I made the deciding vote that put Auto on the table and led to his lynch? I said that I would understand why I would be accused and pushed over that, not that I wouldn't defend myself, and you can see that I did in that post itself. Your case is still bad.

[SeveringViper]

You seem to take offence at his tone. He is, not infrequently, far more ‘abrasive’ as he has been called.

As I have said, point to where I've solely taken offense to his tone.

[El Barto]

As I have said, point to where I've solely taken offense to his tone.

The fact that you haven't done it ‘solely’ does not mean that you have not done it.

[SeveringViper]

The fact that you haven't done it ‘solely’ does not mean that you have not done it.

Your point?

I pride myself on and consider it my line that however abrasively I respond to something, there is always substance behind it beyond "I don't like what you said". If you are going to say otherwise, please back it up yourself.

[Montmorency]

Zack, I notice that Champ asked

Has anyone else been poisoned?

at SoD. Did you have this in mind when you asked the same question just recently?

snip

Uh-huh. So what do you make of Logic claiming to have a shortlist of people who may have cured Manasi, with Jabbz being at the head of the list?

snip

Look, I'll just settle the counterclaim here. When you said this at EoD3,

And how do you know he's not a PR? There seemingly are a lot of PRs here, going by claims.

novice found it strange that you didn't seem to acknowledge the earlier exchange of information about my role (D2), hence the question of "forgetting". Another way to interpret it is that you were suggesting to Zack that I might be a townie and also hiding one or more powers, unclaimed and presumably unknown to Zack. I'm sure there are also other interpretations. You should understand, however, that the interpretation novice voiced was not unreasonable on its face and you shouldn't treat it as such. Something like this should have been cleared up directly and immediately, even if you felt that there shouldn't be any question as to the meaning.

Another complaint that novice and Zack voiced - and which myself, El Barto, and Csargo have echoed - is the difference in style and presence between D1-2 and now. Whether or not it should mean something, it is noticeable and people you town-read are concerned. Again, address this directly or obviate it through actions. There's no point at taking umbrage to the observation and concern, it becomes gratuitous.

You responded overall to these lines of inquiry with anger and contempt, to the extent that it became weird and unnecessary. And now most of the rest of the day has been them (in fact mostly Zack, not novice) wondering why you're acting the way you are and you growing increasingly aggressive over your perception that you are receiving attention for wrong reasons. This has clearly gone to the point of tail-chasing. Just, like, stop. Recover and reconstitute. If you have to, drop whatever point you feel you're pulling at with Zack and talk about something else.

[El Barto]

Your point?

I was just making an ancillary observation, my good sir.

Uh-huh. So what do you make of Logic claiming to have a shortlist of people who may have cured Manasi, with Jabbz being at the head of the list?

Hmmm. Oh, yes, post #1130. I only looked at posts from about #1100 onwards, and only those by Jabbz.
Compared to this earlier one (#619):

I have a strong suspicion that anyone that could do something about it, would.

I don't think anyone has an antidote just yet, if they exist at all.

It rings hollow.

[Zack]

Zack, I notice that Champ asked



at SoD. Did you have this in mind when you asked the same question just recently?

I didn't see that post, but my question meant the same thing.

[Logic]

Uh-huh. So what do you make of Logic claiming to have a shortlist of people who may have cured Manasi, with Jabbz being at the head of the list?

You have either misunderstood me, or misrepresented my statement.

I was clarifying my concern why I think Jabbz is claiming I'm a lock town.

And then I was answering GH's question about why I had softened my stance on him.

I did not use an antidote on Manasi, nor do I have any peeking ability that would give me such an insight. I have already claimed 100% vanilla.

I highly doubt that Manasi healed herself, so that leaves 9 possible candidates for healing left. Some of you are higher up than others. A claim likely does town more good than harm, yes? Someone could end this debate one way or another, yet no one has, and that could make me look rather wolfish, don t you think?

I have a strong suspicion that anyone that could do something about it, would.

I don't think anyone has an antidote just yet, if they exist at all.

And for that earlier statement: I have no reasin, aside from Pokê-lore to think an antidote was something that exists in this game. I had seen no sign of any items up to that point.

I'm off to bed, and I'll withhold my hypothesis on Manasi's mysterious benefactor for the moment.

[Zack]

healer should not claim right now, no reason to

[Montmorency]

I highly doubt that Manasi healed herself, so that leaves 9 possible candidates for healing left. Some of you are higher up than others.

I'm off to bed, and I'll withhold my hypothesis on Manasi's mysterious benefactor for the moment.

But that's all I've ever asked for. How can you put some higher than others? Do you assume the healer was town, and so whoever is towniest (to you) is likeliest to have used an antidote by default? Why Jabbz specifically? Hopefully we can hear before the end.

[Zack]

Let's not try to publicly identify town PRs.

[Jabbz]

RE: Jabbz

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

He has used "logic" 5 times, and in 4 of those, he is making a case for me being town, and the remaining instance is asking Champ why he thinks I am lock wolf. Not that I don't appreciate the assessment, but I can't help but feel that his case isn't strong enough. I know I'm town, but he is making leaps that don't completely add up.

As for you, I have a shortlist of suspects that used the antidote that cured Manasi's poison condition, and you are on it.

I would be more specific regarding this Logic, but I risk treading on rule breaking if I do so. You claim VT, and the way you talk about your role is not the way someone would talk about VT in a normal game. In reading my own PM I came to a conclusion that I feel is very similar to what you came to. You can find it fishy if you want, that's ok. I don't see much to gain by trying to cozy up to you, and it has in fact drawn a lot of attention to me, something scum Jabbz would mislike greatly. You don't have to trust me for my perception, but I'll continue to trust you.

[Jabbz]

My Jabbz case was one of him monitoring the thread (as evidenced by his thanking the one post by Zack I think?) but him not actually saying anything, meaning that he was fine coasting with a (what appeared at the time to be) lopsided lynch of a known townie (myself). His defense of having RL obligations that weekend doesn't really do much for me and it's a case of deflection since it doesn't address the core issue of there being evidence of him being present but not active.

There is a world of difference between having enough time to try to keep up on reading the thread, and having the time necessary to post arguments, which often require going back and forth through multiple posts. As to your implication that I'm lying about having RL obligations, I don't much care what you think. I'm not going to lie about something in RL because of an internet game.

[Jabbz]

I take issue with this. I've tried to stay pretty level-headed going back and forth with someone who keeps lashing out and calling my arguments stupid garbage and the like. He is being much more abrasive than I.

Yeah this is nowhere near the same. That game was hot for a lot of people, and Zack is keeping it pretty mellow.

[Jabbz]

I do apologise for disappearing last night, Mr. Jabbz. Matters related to that commonly known as Real Life suddenly took over.

I shall see about this.

And risk confirming their identities?

I feel you, and no worries.

All right, Mr. Jabbz. While I go through your quotes, may I ask you why you voted for Zack so strangely last phase?

As MM pointed out, Zack and I had a rather ridiculous row my first game here, both of us taking shit personally we shouldn't have. Since he joined in after the game had already started, I thought it would be an amusing vote to cast for Modkill avoidance, until I had something solid.

I find a most distressing link between Jabbz and Logic. On Day One:

After that day:

When novice questioned your reasons:

Then you say, a few posts further down you mention owing Zack a read on Montmorency (see below).

And on Day Four:

It is quite likely that there is a deeper connection between the two of you. Your continued defence of him as ‘lock town’ based on the one first-day post is quite baffling.
More ludic, or possibly lucid, minds should converge on this, I think.

So, what do you think of that cunicular user, as of this new Day Phase?

I addressed this a couple posts back, please feel free to reference that, or any of the other 8 posts I've made about it.


Beyond that however, I find it interesting that you are still going hard after me, without addressing the issues that exist in the case you made against me. You made claims against me that were fundamentally untrue, but rather than accept that your argument was flawed, you instead gloss over the major point of my post, and keep attacking me.

I think you feel that I'm under enough pressure that you can safely pursue me without having a real case, something town wouldn't do. I think that a Vote: El Barto is in order.

[novice]

Tell me, is there anything I've called stupid/garbage where I've been absolutely unwilling to explain why?

Errr... Yes? How could you forget that Monty had claimed a 1-shot roleblocker?
Anyway, let's move on. The following is a bit rambly but I'll just dump some thoughts.

SeveringViper came out of the gate today seeming frustrated, and I don't think scum have reason to be frustrated at this point. Monty's play today has been towny.

One possible source of frustration for scum is if their N3 kill was blocked. I've been suspecting that BSmith was a vig kill, seems like a good play for a vig to get rid of a lurker. It seems others have had the same thought since they're inquiring about poisoners. Apparently the flavor supports this being a mafia kill though? I'm not into Pokemon. SV apparently did not have that thought, he didn't link Monty being blocked on N3 with mafia possibly missing a kill. I wanted to hear his reasoning for blocking Monty because I think it had very little chance of blocking a scum kill anyway, since Monty would probably not be doing the killing if he was scum, given the amount of heat he took on D3.

In short, if someone did vig BSmith I think it would be beneficial to claim that ASAP. I'm currently assuming that he was not vigged.
If BSmith was indeed the mafia night kill I think that points to multiple scum being of the active persuasion. By killing a lurker we have fewer lurkers to choose between when lynching, but just as many active players as before.

I think it makes sense to speculate on teams at this point.

Regarding Zack, the case on Monty yesterday and on Viper today is the kind of case I like to pursue myself, and you can really get going picking apart the responses of the accused. I've mislynched many people with cases like this though. Some people just aren't good at defending even when town, or are too stubborn, or fail to see problems with their own play. I guess what I'm saying is that if Monty and Viper are town, which I find very possible, we're really making things easy for scum!Zack, and I'm a bit concerned that he just keeps pushing instead of seeing things from all sides.

[novice]

Third party: Seireikhaan

Deceased town:
Cuthillius - Poisoner
Raith Kemmler
Sooh - Roleblocker
BSmith
Autolycus

Hot takes:

Town, in no particular order:
Logic
Jabbz - Vanilla
Manasi

Leaning town:
Montmorency - Roleblocker
SeveringViper - Roleblocker
Champ

Leaning scum (more or less by PoE):
GeneralHankerchief
El Barto - Poisoner
Csargo
choxorn Zack

Did I miss any claims?

Vote: El Barto for now.

[novice]

Tally as of post 1199:

Lynch votes
1 vote: Champ (Logic in bullet point)
2 votes: El Barto (Jabbz, novice)
1 votes: Logic (Champ)
1 votes: Jabbz (El Barto)
1 votes: Zack (SeveringViper)

Voting history:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Logic

Jabbz

SeveringViper

Zack

El Barto

El Barto