Safe Injection Sites

[Montmorency]

If we're talking about black markets for cigarettes, then I understand that usually these are standard legal cigarettes. The illegality, the smuggling, derives from buying the cigarettes in a lower-tax jurisdiction and reselling them without right in a higher-tax jurisdiction.

So these bootleg cigarettes are not any more harmful than the convenience store cigarettes you normally lay eyes on. Like the inter-Scandinavian alcohol smuggling business, I guess, an organized extension of what drives private Finns to buy booze in Estonia and bring it back to Finland for personal use. But ciggies.

[Husar]

Well, that sort of smuggling also happens with money. People get money in a high tax country and try to smuggle it to a low tax country to avoid paying the higher taxes.

The only way to fully elimiate a black market is to reduce the price of the product to such levels that the turn over of watered down or even stolen goods isnt worth the effort. I dont see that happening with drugs so the drug war would continue to some extent.

There's still this angle though, the price. Think of sugar. How often is there stretched or cut sugar sold at a cheaper price on the black market?
Are people even looking for that or is sugar so cheap and abundant that it's not worth the effort? Similar for salt.
Now drugs have a much higher price, but why is their price so high? Is it perhaps only so high because the drugs are illegal, which makes the plants harder to grow, the import mechanics more complicated and dangerous and it "forces" the producers to pay higher wages and buy weapons and transport vehicles like airplanes and submarines etc.?

So perhaps if these drugs were legal, their price would drop significantly due to higher supply, and at least for some of them, the incentive to smuggle them would drop. I guess it is possible that some would still have a higher price since the plants need special attention or the chemical process of making them is inherently expensive, but cannabis for example seems easy to grow and I would assume some others would also have price drops.

And we could have the actual COCA Cola back!

[Idaho]

Whenever legal prescribing of Heroin is tried seriously, it leads to less problems, less use, less crime, less new addicts. But politicians prefer dealers to take the blame for lots of deaths and crime, than have their own policies take responsibility for a few.

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This transcript is produced from the teletext subtitles that are generated live for Newsnight. It has been checked against the programme as broadcast, however Newsnight can accept no responsibility for any factual inaccuracies. We will be happy to correct serious errors.
Senior police officers push for doctors to prescribe heroin 10/1/02

LIZ MACKEAN:
The battle against heroin has not been a happy one. It's easily measured by a dismal statistic - when it began in the '60s, addicts numbered 500. Now there are more than 500 times that - the Home Office estimates at least 270,000. No wonder the Home Secretary is considering a change of tack.

DR ANNE READ:
(CONSULTANT PSYCHIATRIST)
Hello. Come on up.

MACKEAN:
Sarah, not her real name, has a 20-year habit which is now perfectly legal. Every day she collects her dose of heroin from the chemist and injects it at home. About 300 addicts in the country are prescribed heroin - diamorphine - and the Government might extend the scheme. It's liberated Sarah from a life of crime.

"SARAH":
Now I'm used to it. Instead of taking methadone, I'm back on that and it's great. I'm leading a lovely life. I call it a clean life, cos to me, I'm clean. I'm not running around shoplifting. I'm not in the vicious circle. I used to call it living in a triangle. I'd score, then go shoplifting or doing credit cards or whatever, then home, then score¿ I was going in like a triangle. Awful life.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/events/newsnight/1755279.stm

[Pannonian]

Well, that sort of smuggling also happens with money. People get money in a high tax country and try to smuggle it to a low tax country to avoid paying the higher taxes.

There's still this angle though, the price. Think of sugar. How often is there stretched or cut sugar sold at a cheaper price on the black market?
Are people even looking for that or is sugar so cheap and abundant that it's not worth the effort? Similar for salt.
Now drugs have a much higher price, but why is their price so high? Is it perhaps only so high because the drugs are illegal, which makes the plants harder to grow, the import mechanics more complicated and dangerous and it "forces" the producers to pay higher wages and buy weapons and transport vehicles like airplanes and submarines etc.?

So perhaps if these drugs were legal, their price would drop significantly due to higher supply, and at least for some of them, the incentive to smuggle them would drop. I guess it is possible that some would still have a higher price since the plants need special attention or the chemical process of making them is inherently expensive, but cannabis for example seems easy to grow and I would assume some others would also have price drops.

And we could have the actual COCA Cola back!

There's also the regulated market argument. If a produce is legal if it follows regulations, it can be sold legally on the market, and recognised brands will spring up that reflect the regulation. In a market where adulteration is dangerous, people will gravitate towards the recognised brands. Food, drink and medicines used to be adulterated back in the 19th century, before regulations cleaned these products up and companies following regulations cleaned up in the market.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I agree with Idaho as to prohibition, at least in general. The costs outweigh the curtailment almost every time and associated problems tend to become more intransigent.

I am not sure I see the value in criminalizing any substance in and of itself. Education, fraud reduction, etc. all have value.

While not interested in paying for it out of my tax dollars, I am of the mind that doctors should be able to prescribe pretty much whatever they wish that provides care for their patient. If that is a light dose of heroin to get a damaged addict up to normal and functional, I conceive of that more as a medical issue than a political one.

[Husar]

While not interested in paying for it out of my tax dollars, I am of the mind that doctors should be able to prescribe pretty much whatever they wish that provides care for their patient. If that is a light dose of heroin to get a damaged addict up to normal and functional, I conceive of that more as a medical issue than a political one.

Well, I'd wager to guess that paying for that would require fewer of your tax dollars than the war on drugs, the crime, the prison cells and medical bills that you currently pay for either directly or indirectly.

[Idaho]

While not interested in paying for it out of my tax dollars, I am of the mind that doctors should be able to prescribe pretty much whatever they wish that provides care for their patient. If that is a light dose of heroin to get a damaged addict up to normal and functional, I conceive of that more as a medical issue than a political one.

Why are you Americanos so averse to helping your fellow citizens and having a healthy and cohesive society? It's the cheapest and most effective approach.

[HopAlongBunny]

Save money, reduce negative social impacts and aid people to get their life back "on the rails"
Decriminalization and/or legalization seem to be good choices; I wouldn't be surprised if giving addicts pharmaceutical grade heroin would be cheaper and safer than "war".

https://www.cato.org/publications/co...harm-reduction

[Greyblades]

So now that drugs arent the devil anymore does that mean we no longer have to take shit about the opium wars?

[Pannonian]

So now that drugs arent the devil anymore does that mean we no longer have to take shit about the opium wars?

Nowt wrong with them. China made war on someone to secure a supply of horses. Making war on China to pay for tea is on the same level.

[Husar]

So now that drugs arent the devil anymore does that mean we no longer have to take shit about the opium wars?

No, Britain is still the devil.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

If they qualify for Medicare or Medicaid in the usual fashion, so be it. I don't think subsidizing addicts is any more valid than taking my money to pay to fix someone else's car.

So, to clarify, the indigent should receive this kind of care in the same way that indigents receive other forms of medical care. No more and no less. Others should pay for care as they do for any other medical condition. Again, no more and no less.

But don't worry your happy little Euro-hearts too much. The USA is heading towards single payer inexorably anyway. Though I predict we will STILL find a way to pay more for care than you lot.

[Gilrandir]

I am of the mind that doctors should be able to prescribe pretty much whatever they wish that provides care for their patient. If that is a light dose of heroin to get a damaged addict up to normal and functional, I conceive of that more as a medical issue than a political one.

Treatment of alcoholism included?

[Pannonian]

If they qualify for Medicare or Medicaid in the usual fashion, so be it. I don't think subsidizing addicts is any more valid than taking my money to pay to fix someone else's car.

So, to clarify, the indigent should receive this kind of care in the same way that indigents receive other forms of medical care. No more and no less. Others should pay for care as they do for any other medical condition. Again, no more and no less.

But don't worry your happy little Euro-hearts too much. The USA is heading towards single payer inexorably anyway. Though I predict we will STILL find a way to pay more for care than you lot.

Ban lawyers. Or at least deal with ambulance chasing.

[Sarmatian]

No, that happens when you, Idaho, me, Beskar, Hooahguy, Sarmation, Husar and Gilrandir all agree.

I think we're safe.

I think we can all agree that the user name is SarmatiAn.

[Gilrandir]

I think we can all agree that the user name is SarmatiAn.

Or, alternately, Samaritan.

[rory_20_uk]

In unsafe, unregulated markets the only one who suffers are the consumers. Look at China - the locals would prefer to spend vastly more on baby milk that comes from "The West" than the local stuff since they trust it.

Knock off cigarettes and alcohol are often substandard - as i having it is illegal after all.

Not allowing something where people can kill themselves but allow something where they can easily go on a spree and kill many others is nonsensical.

Legalise it, treat drug addiction as a medical issue for the poor as well as the rich. Good news is with the War on Terror we can continue to piss away money on destructive escapades without home or resolution for years to come!

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I think we can all agree that the user name is SarmatiAn.

You are, of course, correct.

A clear failure of my Latinitas for which I shall never forgive myself.

Please excuse me whilst I go to the Front to face the enemies of the Empire, sword in hand. I may be some time.

Especially if those enemies have Mead.

[Beskar]

On a completely different note, the idea of safe-injection is an oxymoron in itself, it causes serious damage to the body especially with the impurities in many of the drugs. If you really want to help Heroin users, get them smoking it instead, it is a lot safer and it is what is recommended in recovery services. You also want to flood the community with naloxone as well, get it in supermarkets, shops, etc to save lives.

As for personal opinion on the law, it should be decriminalised for the user, but heavy punishments on the supplier. This way, you can provide help and support to individuals with addiction and are using, keeping them outside of the criminal system. The drugs should be restricted and should only be used in a medical context.

With the physical/psychological angles of addiction, it is very easy to cure physical alcohol addiction. You are looking at 7-10 days at home taking Librium (this may need a detox unit if unable to do it at home for medical or social reasons). People in fact feel pretty good Librium once it gets into the system, and it manages the withdrawal very well. The problem is, the psychological addiction. The best way to describe it is that as human beings, we are very good at adapting and becoming experts, unfortunately, we can become experts in being alcoholics. So now you have a cleaned up but still expert alcoholic and without any preparation for the cognitive changes that need to take place, they will go back to the drink. Also, for those who used to be alcoholics, abstinence is the best way, as once they do drink, they re-activate the neurons where they used to be expert drinkers and before you know it, the wine bottle is empty and opening up the second. It requires immense social and psychological support, and usually a complete change in their environment as you need to proactively change your life.

[Idaho]

Clean injectable heroin and clean equipment is safe. You could use moderately like that for decades without having many issues.

[Beskar]

Clean injectable heroin and clean equipment is safe. You could use moderately like that for decades without having many issues.

I think the keywords has been highlighted there "Moderately" and " without many issues".

When it comes to these things, moderation is definitely not being considered in the slightest. Unfortunately, the heroin is not going to be 'clean', and there will be damage especially after prolonged use, especially if they do not rotate the spots and the consequences is amputation and even death. If you go near any drug recovery centre, you will come across individuals who are missing digits (injecting into knuckles is a big one) even meet some who inject in really dangerous areas such as the neck and the groin. You will have people paralysed as a result of deep vein thrombosis. This is not even going into the effects of the drug itself on the body. There are also cognitive changes as heroin users become more 'child-like' in their behaviour and mannerisms. There is also the fact these are people and unfortunately their journey comes about through factors such as environment (everyone in their circle uses drugs) or they have been abused in the past, either physically or sexually, and they use it as a means to escape their living hell of those memories.

Sure, you can paint this picture I have seen in drug advocacy circles of some hard-working businessman who drives a BMV, married with kids, who has a personal safe-injection room and likes to shoot up after a hard day at work and hurts no body, but that is simply a fantasy that doesn't exist. I have seen people who liked to paint this picture, then come into recovery services about the struggles they are having and how it was a hook for something not going right in their life. People turn to drugs to compensate for things in their life, this comes under the social causes of addiction.

An interesting easy to access video about Social Causes of Addiction can be watched here:


Whilst there are practical reasons for decriminalisation and enabling individuals to receive the help and support they need, drug advocacy is a different kettle of fish and it is dangerous.

[HopAlongBunny]

I don't think anyone is advocating "Oh yes! Everyone should be an addict!"
Given that we have a problem of opiod abuse, the question is how to handle it.
Incarceration does not seem to help, and may actually deepen the problem; access to drugs in jail, criminal record making productive living hard, giving these now criminals a real identity and peer group that is antisocial...etc.
Treatment allows a person to receive help. Help with the addiction, help with underlying causes, avenues to growth and the possibility of a drug free future. It reduces the "free manpower" for criminal pursuits; a person on maintenance does not need to steal to support the habit, it takes one bullet out of the gun for people looking to control others for profit.
The most strident advocates for keeping it illegal and hopeless are those who profit from things as they are. Including legitimate business like private prisons, security firms and other interests peddling security.

edit: To people who declaim: "You are not going to pick MY pocket to support the filthy habits of others!"
Your pockets are already being picked; it is not a question of "forking over", the question is how much, and to what ends.

[HopAlongBunny]

Further to what we have discussed above:

https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...se-of-opioids/

Free drugs!
How awesome is that?
Seriously though, it works, its cheaper than war, safer, and allows people caught in a bad place to contribute to society.
The counter-argument amounts to "keep pouring money into an imaginary solution"

[rory_20_uk]

Drugs are a symptom, not the underlying problem.



It should be treated by the Medical system... and that way is a HELL of a lot cheaper to boot.

The fact the question is raised after Prohibition was such a disaster is insane.

[Beskar]

Ended up linking the same exact video as me, Rory.