Trump Thread

[Montmorency]

Trump's relationship with that community was never going to be good. Trump wants the laws on immigration enforced more or less and they don't and would prefer amnesty/unrestricted immigration. Not a lot of 'love' there.

Following the era of national quotas, Congress has tended to defer to the executive branch in setting immigration security policy and priorities.

The immigration laws have not gone unenforced. Otherwise we would have to believe that no laws with potential of violation or circumvention or qualification have been enforced in history - in which case we won't plausibly be starting now.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Following the era of national quotas, Congress has tended to defer to the executive branch in setting immigration security policy and priorities.

The immigration laws have not gone unenforced. Otherwise we would have to believe that no laws with potential of violation or circumvention or qualification have been enforced in history - in which case we won't plausibly be starting now.

Congress has deferred damn near everything except for pork spending to the Presidency. In practice, the President is expected to set out the budget, establish policies on 9/10 issues, and serve as the "image" of America to the world. I even recall Congress granting Dubya the power to wage war more or less as he saw fit without bothering to do much more then send them a note. I more or less think they forswore their own oaths of office on that one.

I agree that immigration law are not unenforced -- but they are under-enforced and contain too many provisions and practices that serve to encourage rather than discourage illegals as well as permit too few workers into the country on a legal basis.

[Montmorency]

I agree that immigration law are not unenforced -- but they are under-enforced and contain too many provisions and practices that serve to encourage rather than discourage illegals as well as permit too few workers into the country on a legal basis.

Fair enough, but legislation from Congress can only set parameters for the executive on this issue, unless you figure there should be a special Congressional committee with direct oversight over minutiae. Yet what policy or enforcement can there be - what would it look like - that would "discourage" unauthorized residency either in the face of or to a greater extent than global economic trends? It seems like historically out of our hands once we let down the gates to Fortress Amerika - and I'm not in favor of the country bending to refortify itself against the world.

I think sooner or later border security calculations will have to be considered against the backdrop of negotiations toward a Schengen-type treaty for North America.

[drone]

Yet what policy or enforcement can there be - what would it look like - that would "discourage" unauthorized residency either in the face of or to a greater extent than global economic trends?

Enforcement on businesses that use illegals. They are undercutting legal workers and they are dodging employment taxes. Enforce that and the problem sorts itself out. Thing is, both parties have interests that don't want to see that...

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Enforcement on businesses that use illegals. They are undercutting legal workers and they are dodging employment taxes. Enforce that and the problem sorts itself out. Thing is, both parties have interests that don't want to see that...

Correct focus. If there is a market, legal or otherwise, it will be filled. We need to be draconian with companies exploiting illegals and flouting our laws. We also need a more realistic number of work permits etc.

[Montmorency]

Enforcement on businesses that use illegals. They are undercutting legal workers and they are dodging employment taxes. Enforce that and the problem sorts itself out. Thing is, both parties have interests that don't want to see that...

As I think about it, there are several problems with this idea.

Past the geographic dispersion of unauthorized residents they are fairly diversified throughout the labor force. Most of these are all manner of unskilled positions, but hundreds of thousands do skilled or white-collar work. Enforcement mechanism would presumably be onerously extensive to have much effect.

The majority of the aliens are thought to have been residents of the US for at least 10 years, with almost all having spent years in the country. To the extent that there is a crackdown on 'johns', adaptation on both ends may encourage a large proportion of the unauthorized residents to remain. Some may leave the workforce entirely and pool resources with working family or community members, especially those with citizenship/legal residence or other authorization to work; those who end up like this act as an economic drain.

Economic consequences to either the departure or the jobless residence of aliens will be severe. For non-capital intensive work, likely you see employers simply downsizing, exiting their sector/industry, or quitting altogether. As aggregate demand decreases and jobs are eliminated, putative compensatory upward pressure on citizen labor's wages will not materialize. In the good cases we should expect offshoring/outsourcing, or accelerated automation, rather than replacement with legal labor. In the worst cases, unskilled labor will no longer be buoyed by a wage/conditions floor in the form of a separate labor class, and will see their own wages and standards decline as employers tighten their belts by passing increased costs on to legal labor.


Let me clarify that I meant my previous post with respect to discouraging new crossings or new attempts to cross; I don't consider mass reductions (direct or induced) of the pre-existing unauthorized population to be a viable option. SF or drone, can you think of policy that would discourage new crossings or new attempts to cross in the face of or to a greater extent than global economic trends?

The handicap is, as always, no mass killings at the border, and no indirect dis-incentivization through denial of public services to pre-existing aliens ("it is not sufficient justification that a law saves money").

[Beskar]

Offer illegals amnesty for reporting exploitative business practices such as under cutting minimum wage and other standards. Bring in laws tackling modern slavery with harsh disincentives for businesses to consider doing them. Those measures would quickly find the system correcting itself rather quickly.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Offer illegals amnesty for reporting exploitative business practices such as under cutting minimum wage and other standards. Bring in laws tackling modern slavery with harsh disincentives for businesses to consider doing them. Those measures would quickly find the system correcting itself rather quickly.

I do not like any sort of informer rewards system....though I must say this has much more of an element of justice to it than most such suggestions.

[spmetla]

I think sooner or later border security calculations will have to be considered against the backdrop of negotiations toward a Schengen-type treaty for North America.

A Schengen type treaty might be done with Canada but not Mexico which is treated largely like Turkey. We like more free-trade with them but free movement of peoples would be seen as opening the flood gates to the 'barbarians.'

I personally support a stronger visa and border enforcement, I support a fence, not a wall. I also support seasonal guest worker permits but those would need to be tied to visa controls.

As for all the people illegally residing in the US, I support a very generous amnesty program with path toward citizenship. There are no shortage of illegal aliens that have been upright citizens minus their initial infraction, some of which own land and legitimate businesses and have paid taxes as such.
As for everyone sneaking 'after the lock' I'd continue deportations and have the laws very stringent then.

As for the people that say the US has always welcomed immigrants its true but until the 1960s that applied pretty much only to Europeans. All others were strongly discouraged, asians especially. Immigration is good for the economy but it should be tied to the needs of the economy. Allowing too much immigration when unemployment is already too high means wages stay depressed, crime and blackmarkets thrive(in general not just because of immigrants) , and immigrants that are stuck on the bottom rung of society without a way up will generally not integrate creating insular communities outside of civic society.

[HopAlongBunny]

One nice thing about democracy is it does hold up a mirror.
Like it or not Trump is a reflection of America at this time; fear envy hate and desire its all there; and its even in Orange!

[Husar]

One nice thing about democracy is it does hold up a mirror.
Like it or not Trump is a reflection of America at this time; fear envy hate and desire its all there; and its even in Orange!

Germany has to be incredibly boring, undecided, conservative and way too slow on everything then.
Oh wait, you could actually say it's true.