Chess - Game Thread [Concluded]

[Fredwood]

Winston: You might be right, I don't usually play 72/24, but can you explain how this is a Bad Thing?

Fred: My concern is still your wording, if you were fine with both wagons then I think you would have just left it at that.

So now you're trying to direct what my response should have been? Saying that I have sympathy, something that I stated within the meat of the post, so it wasn't that much of an inference that the unfortunately meant that despite my humanity I'm likely to vote him. The wording is only misleading because you're actively altering the meaning.

Either way, I posted it because I felt like it and wanted people to know where I was at.

Couple that with your inference that I should not vote Logic because he's consensus and lolconensusisneverrightyouguyslol, then calling me lazy for not "voting" my top scumread (when Logic is a relatively top scum read)...tis strange.

[Winston Hughes]

Can you elaborate?

Town's job is to use the time available to rebalance the information equation in its favour.

Scum's job is to ensure town guesses wrong at eod.

[Winston Hughes]

I'm still comfortable with my vote, but GH is giving me a scummy vibe too.

Zack is a bad vote.

Join me on GH.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Town's job is to use the time available to rebalance the information equation in its favour.

Scum's job is to ensure town guesses wrong at eod.

For the town part you're generally correct, but I think you're oversimplifying the mafia's job. There's a lot more nuance to it, working on multiple levels to ensure both short and longterm success.

Luckily all I have to do is just say what's on my mind this game.

[Winston Hughes]

Show me the good stuff, GH.

[reinoe]

Exciting stuff is happening. Catching only snippets Fredwood came out townie and GH came out awkward. Not sure if scummy though.

I can understand someone not voting their top scumread. For example logic has at least one "pseudo-vote" from Winston and I wouldn't mind going there myself. But I want to see a counterwagon and see how it develops and who's on it. Even though I haven't felt great about zack I can say that his 3 person wagon is not cool.
@GeneralHanderkerchief

Whom are your scumspects from strongest to weakest?

[Winston Hughes]

Zack
pizza
Monty
Fredwood
Dp101

Townpile.

[Winston Hughes]

GH
Logic
El Barto
Manasi
choxorn

scumpile

[Winston Hughes]

Slaan
Csargo
Kage
Cuth
reinoe
Xiahou

remainder

[Montmorency]

I'm still comfortable with my vote, but GH is giving me a scummy vibe too.



I don't care for this either.

Hi.

GH
Logic
El Barto
Manasi
choxorn

scumpile

What do you think of Choxorn?

[Montmorency]

Can you clarify the ordering in those piles, if they are ordered?

[Winston Hughes]

What do you think of Choxorn?

Conservative, lacks juice.

[Winston Hughes]

Can you clarify the ordering in those piles, if they are ordered?

Townpile order was deliberate, others were in order of recollection.

[Montmorency]

Conservative, lacks juice.

He has two distinct blocks of three posts. First set of 3 posts is a joke and a few low-impact reads, standard Choxorn.
Second set of 3 posts is shading a few people (Zack and Xiahou), recreating a case against Logic to sheep Pizza (who is looking like town but you can never be sure).

It's the second block, right?

Order as in top-bottom or.

[Winston Hughes]

He has two distinct blocks of three posts. First set of 3 posts is a joke and a few low-impact reads, standard Choxorn.
Second set of 3 posts is shading a few people (Zack and Xiahou), recreating a case against Logic to sheep Pizza (who is looking like town but you can never be sure).

It's the second block, right?

Order as in top-bottom or.

He's not left scumhooks, except by omission.

[Winston Hughes]

Order as in top-bottom or.

Townpile is most townie at top.

[Winston Hughes]

You're making me feel you should be even higher.

Very nice work if you're scum.

[Csargo]

I'm still comfortable with my vote, but GH is giving me a scummy vibe too.



I don't care for this either.

Why?

[Montmorency]

He's not left scumhooks, except by omission.

Here's his full ISO:

1-3

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

'Sup

Medium Claim: 4th Party Hyperdimensional Alien Serial Survivor Pirate

(a pawn on the c-file)

Hot Takes:

Dp101's posts are good

Csargo's are scummy

Zack, Pizza, Winston, and Monty all being themselves, more or less

Joke + quick leans on major actives-so-far.

That was the joke.




Don't like this post. Hard to say way, it just sorta rubs me the wrong way. Call it gut feeling, I guess.

Leans being weak was "the joke", replying to Zack. Negative gut feeling about Logic's wall on his return following the first volleys from Pizza.

4-6

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

> Says Pizza is going after low-hanging fruit
> Votes El Barto





Your post is bad and you should feel bad

Even El Barto had more to say than just "I don't like how active the thread is"

Shading Zack for criticizing Barto for going after low-hanging fruit. Shading Xiahou's opening for complaining about post-count and voting Zack; compares Xiahou to Barto.

I find myself agreeing with most of what Pizza says and getting solid town vibes from him.

Of course, given that this is Pizza, I'm not going to place him in the "definite town" column unless I get a 100% Truescan Reading on him saying he's absolutely, totally townie, and even then I'm still going to have some doubts.

Solid town vibes from Pizza, but Pizza can never be fully trusted.

Logic-

First few posts are just talking about video games, total fluff

First real post is this one, in response to Pizza calling him scummy:



Then more fluff

Some stuff about how he's confused by how Pizza's playing, which is odd, because talk a bunch and engage in weird roleplaying is what Pizza always does.

Then there's this:



I still don't like this post. Still just feels off, and voting Kagemusha for an obvious joke vote looks scummy to me. His later attempt to justify it seems like he's really grasping at straws:





And this post is just wishy-washy. And still feels off to me.


Just generally Logic feels very non-committal with his suspicions, is guarded with his language, never pushing anything he says too strongly so he has room to go back on what he said earlier, and a lot of his posts are pretty light on content.

Vote: Logic

Nxe7+

Logic ISO, concludes case against Logic for being guarded and non-commital.

What pinged me is the compartmentalized shade and sheeping without venturing anything new or evaluating players broadly on balance. What is the omission from your POV?

I looked at town Choxorn in Swords and Sorcery, where I recall him being fairly good. 4 evenly spaced few-liner posts, shift in earnest attacking and voting DP for a scummy thing he did, responding to DP's challenge with analysis of DP alone and DP-Winston, absenting himself for the second half of the day then popping back in during night to offer a fair contribution of analysis on day's events. I think one way to put the difference is that Choxorn was more precise and focused in that D1, in the one instance he addressed the game course. What Choxorn did here in his second block of posts was spreading himself thinner.

So if you want to diversify wagons,

Unvote: Zack

Vote: Choxorn

might be a better shot than Barto or Manasi.

[Zack]

Don't like this post.

Feels like Fredwood's playing 72/24, while GH is looking to eod.

Town play the day, scum play for the deadliine.

Town's job is to use the time available to rebalance the information equation in its favour.

Scum's job is to ensure town guesses wrong at eod.

This progression seems off to me. It reads like you were trying to insert an opportunity to grandstand about that, because I've squinted my eyes in confusion a few times to try and find the relevance to the argument between GH and Fred, and it's not there.

On that point, I think they both come out of it looking good, actually.

GH's big post looks townie in itself, but it feels a little scummy to me that he'd make that his main engagement with the thread at this stage.

Where's the chat, GH?

This post got me thinking about one thing that bugged me about GH in pokemon. I had him near the top of my reads lists almost the whole time I was alive, embarrassingly, but I remember still being frustrated that he wasn't engaging with me more in the thread. He seemed to pop in and out, and if he didn't want to answer a question, he'd leave the thread and ignore it. In contrast, so far that hasn't been the case (even as I know he's busy with another game). Winston was on the right track in that, if GH is a wolf he probably just drops that text bomb and leaves. But he stuck around and picked fights. And I think he really did see things in Fred's post that bothered him, and he wanted to dig in.

Fred's side looks really pure -- dunno if as a wolf he's capable of taking that criticism so easily in stride like that. Fred's back up again, but I still think that post is problematic if one of Barto and Logic is a wolf.

Upon reflection, Winston probably good too -- I think he'd be more content to stay in the background a bit more if he was scum.

Csargo responding to the Xiahou post with a simple, "why?" is EXACTLY how I was going to respond to it. X only voted me because I had a lot of posts (even though he thanked one of them, so clearly he didn't really mind that much), he never said I was scummy that I remember, but he seems to be implying that he did find something legitimately wolfy about me. I've only played with him in Pirate Ship Mafia, don't remember his behavior at all outside of the 200 gold fiasco, which I don't think is relevant here. In any case, not enough of an issue yet for me to go digging through past games for clues.

[Zack]

Monty -- I think the push on choxorn has merit (certainly more than the one on me ).

He seems to be riding / piggybacking on Pizzaguy.

[Zack]

Slaan
Csargo
Kage
Cuth
reinoe
Xiahou

remainder

I think you and logic are the only ones that low on Kage. Anything specific there?

[Zack]

Oh, I just realized that was the null pile.

but still

[Zack]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Csargo]

Kage is 90% town here.

[Choxorn]

You and others have contested this (mostly indirectly), but Zack feels too free-spirited. He's committing to trivial things, but gliding about the agendas of the day. Only Csargo agrees AFAIK. If Zack flips scum I think it spews you as scum-risk, but if not I think you're a solid town read. Pizza for one believes this kind of calculation only has a place later in the game.

I like this. It speaks to my residual doubt on Zack.

I have residual doubt on Zack, too, might just be paranoia but might not be. And I still think it's weird that he'd call out Pizza for going after what he calls "low hanging fruit" in Logic and Csargo, and then Zack proceeds to, 2 pages later, start going hard after El Barto, the lowest possible hanging of low hanging fruit.

Winston: You might be right, I don't usually play 72/24, but can you explain how this is a Bad Thing?

Fred: My concern is still your wording, if you were fine with both wagons then I think you would have just left it at that.

The townies have control of the day. It's generally a good idea to let it last as long as possible, to get the most information you can.

I looked at town Choxorn in Swords and Sorcery, where I recall him being fairly good. 4 evenly spaced few-liner posts, shift in earnest attacking and voting DP for a scummy thing he did, responding to DP's challenge with analysis of DP alone and DP-Winston, absenting himself for the second half of the day then popping back in during night to offer a fair contribution of analysis on day's events. I think one way to put the difference is that Choxorn was more precise and focused in that D1, in the one instance he addressed the game course. What Choxorn did here in his second block of posts was spreading himself thinner.

Well, yeah, but that was pretty atypical for me- it was a game where DP and Al Sips stood out to me as really scummy, pretty much right from the start. Usually I don't play very well on Day 1 and get better as the game goes on. Case in point: This game, and my game in the mafia championships where I guessed horribly wrong the first two days and went really hard after a scummy townie instead of an actual mafia.

Also, I had a lot fewer RL commitments back in February than I do right now, which is why I'm only just briefly popping in and out- that's all I really have time to do.

[Zack]

I have residual doubt on Zack, too, might just be paranoia but might not be. And I still think it's weird that he'd call out Pizza for going after what he calls "low hanging fruit" in Logic and Csargo, and then Zack proceeds to, 2 pages later, start going hard after El Barto, the lowest possible hanging of low hanging fruit.

did you read my posts on el barto?

[El Barto]

I'll be around for the next 40-60 minutes and I'll try to read the last ~250 posts. If anyone wants to ask anything during that time, go ahead.

[El Barto]

I really don't like Xiahou's vote on Zack on #729. I usually employ the O.M.G.U.S. algorithm on Day One, but that reads like trying to form a counterwaggon for Logic's benefit.

vote: Xiahou

[El Barto]

Firstly, I wouldn’t exactly describe my r actions towards logic and Barto tearing st their throats, but anyway, I feel that out of those 3, the lynch order should be Logic > Barto > Manasi, with manasi basically being my null benchmark at this point. Barto’s outright refusal to read the thread feels like a new level of anti-town behaviour from him, and I’m starting to agree with Pizza on Logic. However, I want to emphasise here that I am not entirely sure how to read logic, and so my vote is more sheeping than anything else. Could you elaborate as to what you mean by “Logic the round before his lynch”? Are you referring to a past game here? Or do you think logic is playling like this because he thinks he is going to get lynched? I really can’t parse your statement.

It's not an outright refusal; I said I might read it if/when I had the time. Which, having a 72-hour phase, isn't that much of a stretch.

I thought Reinoe's entrance was fine. Why didn't you like it?

Didn't he vote for me?

I'm bored with being townread.

Tell me why I'm scum.

'cos you voted for me.

Also, anyone who is riding the train of "Logic is scum here, because he is noticeably and explicitly different from XCOM mafia, where he was town."

Read Barto in that game, read Logic in that game. Read them both in this game.

There's a stark difference in one of them, and it's not Logic.

How did I behave in Day One in that game?

Convince me to vote Tak, Zack.

People refuse to read him, because he's barto. But it's not that hard.

In the CFC/MTGS game on MU, I defended him for days before finally giving up. He was town.

I don't remember the game it was, but he was worried with fixing votecounts or something while having zero interest in the actual thread. I called him out on it as being wolfy, and got a mixture of scorn and ambivalence.

In Sooh's last game, I called him out as a probable wolf again. He was scum. I barely escaped getting mislynche d1, and got immediately killed by the town vigilante.

In Representative Democracy, as my teammate, I was literally begging him in our scum chat to please, post and do something. He did nothing but occasionally pop in to complain about the number of posts and do not really anything, pretty much what he's done here.

Look at XCOM. How much time does he spend complaining about having to read the thread? Does he make thoughtless OMGUS votes then peace out?

Nope.

As a recipient of Barto's unique version of the welcoming committee and me getting a bug in my bonnet about it, he does feel different. I feel a demonstrable difference between Bart in Xcom as opposed to Logic in XCom. Unfortunately most of Logic's play has been off the back foot so even if I did sense a change in playstyle.

I agree with Monty in the sense that Logic feels like the "correct" lynch today, but illogical me would like to vote Bart here.

Anyway fatigue etc etc etc neither have been here defending themselves etc etc etc.

this post feels like a wolf prepping for a wolf flip

Alternate theory: the mafioso knows the two leading bandwaggons are on people not his faction. Thus he makes a post where he faffs about, muses a bit, and contradicts himself. When one flips town he will say he really should have gone with his conscience and votes the other one.

Zack is a bad vote.

Join me on GH.

Give me a bit more justification and I might bite. At worst we'll just have given him more time in which to prepare the fourth edition of Pirate Ship Mafia (this is a good reason to lynch him, incidentally).

GH
Logic
El Barto
Manasi
choxorn

scumpile

Two-fingered salute it is.