Chess - Game Thread [Concluded]

[Fredwood]

I've said it before, I'll say it again, Pizza for MVP.

Eh he stopped his ISO right before my best moment of the game, so no.

Ok, you got me, MVP points.

[Montmorency]

Aha, a guilty one!

11 posts.

He actually unvotes and votes for someone else.

Look how he's tossing shade onto people.

Scum-Xiahou from a long time ago:


Compare to his other town games and this game.

I see... words.

Where are his words when he's town? He's got less than half this amount.

His suspects all game have been Csargo (early game, and now), GH, and Zack. That's all.

Csargo could even be scum. Like, I don't even know if he's voted for a townie so far this game. And he's trying to influence people about this much: zero.

Let me check the other games. I don't remember him being especially wordy, but I'll look.

This game was more than a decade ago. If nowadays he plays once every few years, he won't be tied to many conventions or habits.
I understand the notion of taking the slot by default as less likely scum simply for partner aggression in a low-post space, but the game you pulled up is not evidence for any meta now.

Like, I don't even know if he's voted for a townie so far this game. And he's trying to influence people about this much: zero.

He voted for Barto D1 and Manasi in the D3 hammer. People generally haven't had as many opportunities to vote townies; not a point to hold Csargo alone to. So far Xiahou has voted Zack, GH, and (on D4) Csargo.

LOL wrong thread.

Anyway, he's a bit more talkative in VII, but, only here and there.

Instead, I'm finding this, like in Pirate ship.


This post in Pirate Ship III is basically Xiahou's town meta.

Says a reason or asks why it's not wrong, reasoning is super straightforward, or simply a declaration they're scum. They vote, and generally, he does not unvote.

It's rare that he even moves a vote. When he does, it's because the discussion and evidence has pushed him that way. Otherwise he seems to prefer to vote whoever he thinks is scummy once a round,

whether they're being voted already or not. This, plus a few or a couple examples each game where he strings together a few sentences.

Usually a couple separate topics involved, so he's only on any one topic for a sentence or two. But then he returns to one-liners, which are sporadic.

His scum meta was much denser, and involved more shading and persuasion attempts and fewer one liners. And there's a clear difference in intent.

There are clear attempts to control the outcome of the game, from his vantage point of not saying a whole lot, by changing minds and making arguments to push townies in a direction.

In other words, my guess is, Xiahou!scum would have repeated such an attempt here, and said things to push the game in any direction. To persuade the rest of us where to go.

Instead, he's content to come out of the shadows like a ninja, attack someone, and slip back in.

And that's what he does as town. He's not about that controlling the discussion life.

Xiahou is a ninja assassin as town, and his scum game involves visible intent to change course.

I believe he'd change course on Zack or GH or not target them in the first place.

Or it's player-meta, not alignment-meta.

Opening post this game.

Keep in mind, Zack had gotten votes on D1. He had been voted more than once and been shaded by a couple of people before this vote.

But he was also not lock scum or a lost cause nor did he have a big wagon at the time. In fact reinoe had unvoted him.

This is just a bizarre place to put a vote if Xiahou is scum. Timing-wise, plus the fact that he's just not someone who unvotes.

This was a voting Zack to death vote, when Zack was going super hard.

Xiahou lock town based off of this one post alone, and I'm serious about that lock. Look at the context.

Look at his meta and who he is. Look at who Zack is. That's not someone you bus d1. It goes against every single mafia principle.

Why does Xiahou care who Zack is?

So then... Csargo?

As with my other votes, it's more gut feeling than deep analysis- but I just feel like he's trying too hard at being vanilla.

Slaan gives me a little bit of a scummy vibe too- but glancing at the analysis of others, he at least appears to have a little data to support a town claim.

Otherwise... I guess it's just someone who's been flying beneath the radar all game?

On the other hand, Csargo's been read as not trying at all, and this being non-indicative at worst.

You yourself have gone under the radar.

Monty's been under the radar / in a lot of towns and did suggest tying chox/logic. Hiding in plain sight.

In any case I have my 6 townies and 3 scums and I feel a lot more secure in them than I did before.

Monty/Slaan earned their town leans, but Csargo didn't. Sloppy pizza.

I don't think I tend to be UTR anymore. Not for years.

He didn't.

I'm laffin.

An advanced search suggests he didn't vote anyone in the game except Manasi D3. (This isn't contesting your read, I've also town-read Cuth since my ISO.)

[Montmorency]

@Askthepizzaguy

Do you have any advice on how to format ISOs to build case, and how to ISO with format in mind?

I'm struggling a lot to make something more useful than just a final claim alone, without resorting either to exhaustive description or to layering quote chains by 5+ levels.

[Askthepizzaguy]

@Askthepizzaguy

Do you have any advice on how to format ISOs to build case, and how to ISO with format in mind?

I'm struggling a lot to make something more useful than just a final claim alone, without resorting either to exhaustive description or to layering quote chains by 5+ levels.

Your question includes the phrase "to build (a) case", so I'll expand beyond just formatting.

I've noticed that people don't click links or even reference posts which are walls of analysis with links. referencing with links and post numbers is less effective. This is fine for your own note taking and planning out your thoughts, but it's for your own open notebook work. No one else will touch it.

So, when presenting your findings, and since the org doesn't automatically include quotes inside of a quoted post, if it is relevant copy and paste it and throw quote tags around it and say who said it. The main quoted post will include a link, so no need to get links. If people want links they can click through. Include the original quote properly so people can easily click through if they're not sure of your context.

Cut out bits that do not refer to what you're talking about, indicate if it's in the middle of text by (snip). Otherwise, if it's just a small section, you can simply quote that one section. Otherwise, leave context as much as is reasonable.

Do things in chronological order as much as possible. Sometimes quoting other major events or tallies that happened around that time frame can help people place when this happened.

Make any point you intend to make in as few sentences as possible, unless it's an important point or requires more explanation to be understood.

The important part is not convincing, but showing what you were thinking, so that thought is also in the reader's mind whether they agree with the assumptions or not. All you're doing is having them consider your POV.

Stuff that is less valuable or alignment indicative can be skipped. If you have a good point make it in fewer quotations (my weakness).

Include things you see which contradict your own point, so you remember that even when you were trying to scum-read this person, you saw them do X which was townie looking, or even when you were trying to town-read this person, you couldn't shake the feeling that Y was scummy. Sometimes you have to see things from both perspectives, and if you can't ignore a scummy thing while town reading someone it could be important, or it might not be. But don't forget it.

Example, when I was originally town reading Slaan, I struggled super hard to town read his JAQ wall. I was concluding and trying to find evidence for, and ultimately, I could barely talk myself into that one. I basically had to resort to "this could just be how he is".

Sometimes it's less of a forced read. Like, I had an odd gut feeling about a dp post, but even at the time, I was not forcing myself to be of two minds about it. It got my attention, so I looked at it in detail, but it wasn't what I thought it was upon analysis and thought that it only looked like something bad in passing.

ISOing someone is tricky on the org. I employed liberal use of ignore mode (for the non-moderator players) on dead townies and strong town reads alike, often as many people as possible, leaving not ignored dead scums and the host's vote counts, and the person in question I wanted to ISO. Call it a poor man's multi-iso.

You can also just control+F name, but the issue is, you'll be reading every single instance of that name and you could miss abbreviated versions of the name. So, like for Cuth for example, search Cuth instead of Cuthillius and you'll also get the abbreviated version.

When looking for just the next instance of this person's post only while not doing an isolated post search (of limited utility on the org...) instead control+F and look for their current total number of posts, join date, under title, or location, something more unique than just their name which will appear to the side of their posts. For example for you, I'd search Sep 2010.

And the meta on Xiahou is relevant because it hasn't changed in a decade, including several games since then, and one very recent one.

It means this is who he is, and it isn't changing. If anything it only more firmly establishes that he's set in his ways. Like Logic, he's not changing.

[Montmorency]

And the meta on Xiahou is relevant because it hasn't changed in a decade, including several games since then, and one very recent one.

It means this is who he is, and it isn't changing. If anything it only more firmly establishes that he's set in his ways. Like Logic, he's not changing.

The problem is you're both arguing and assuming that it hasn't changed. You see? Ultimately he could have a more generalized approach because he isn't engaged with either the culture or the specific games to a large degree. Why is that less plausible than, 'He should be agenda-setting as mafia because he did that once 10 years ago'?

[Slaan]

Eh he stopped his ISO right before my best moment of the game, so no.

Ok, you got me, MVP points.

You sussing me is not the best part of the game

[Slaan]

K I'm live! So yea, the case on Cuth looks pretty good from pizza... wanted to ISO cuth as well (after I got my kill on Xia) but guess that's not really required any more...

My last 3 lynches would be Xia/Csargo/... Monty or Cuth... hope I won't ever have to decide between them. In my book the game ends with Xia.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Then he does it again.

ok, yeah definitely. The computer announces mate now.

Slaan, you were the sith lord, you sneaky pete.

[Fredwood]

You sussing me is not the best part of the game

No I'm talking about my response to GH/Zack's push. I think if you're want to get into a meta thing with me, or to read me off a string of posts its that exchange. A lot of my scum/town finding abilities rely on being pushed, it's why I'm a stickler with consistency and progression on others, because I need that consistency or progression on me to help read pushes on me. It's the reason I pushed Rein and a big part of the reason I pushed you.

While shooting down a faulty push isn't AI because I'm able to objectively pick apart a bad push as either alignment. I mean solely for me when town a push and response to my response is a big part of my reads. If someone has a good solid case against me where I can objectively see if they have a point and if I was reading their case against anyone else whether I'd follow or not, I'll not "give up" as it were, but I'll accept the read and would be fine with the lynch because I'm a hindrance to solving.

Usually when there are good cases against me as town it's because I went outside my comfort zone or didn't get any decent suss against me and couldn't genuinely develop reads. This game that didn't happen and I objectively think I had a good game, unlike in Wild West, X-Com or the dragonmount game.