Chess - Game Thread [Concluded]

[Fredwood]

You sussing me is not the best part of the game

No I'm talking about my response to GH/Zack's push. I think if you're want to get into a meta thing with me, or to read me off a string of posts its that exchange. A lot of my scum/town finding abilities rely on being pushed, it's why I'm a stickler with consistency and progression on others, because I need that consistency or progression on me to help read pushes on me. It's the reason I pushed Rein and a big part of the reason I pushed you.

While shooting down a faulty push isn't AI because I'm able to objectively pick apart a bad push as either alignment. I mean solely for me when town a push and response to my response is a big part of my reads. If someone has a good solid case against me where I can objectively see if they have a point and if I was reading their case against anyone else whether I'd follow or not, I'll not "give up" as it were, but I'll accept the read and would be fine with the lynch because I'm a hindrance to solving.

Usually when there are good cases against me as town it's because I went outside my comfort zone or didn't get any decent suss against me and couldn't genuinely develop reads. This game that didn't happen and I objectively think I had a good game, unlike in Wild West, X-Com or the dragonmount game.

[Askthepizzaguy]

From the dark site turn you must

The dark side surrounds the Slaancellor. I sense a plot to destroy the Town circle.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I'm not letting go of Master Xiahou. His fate will be the same as ours.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Fred, I don't remember what you said about Slaan's reads vanishing. Are you sure they weren't just progression the opposite way?

Can you find that for me?

[Fredwood]

Fred, I don't remember what you said about Slaan's reads vanishing. Are you sure they weren't just progression the opposite way?

Can you find that for me?

What do you mean? I confronted him about his inconsistency and his defense was him saying on Winston he was sheeping you and forgot, and with me he was misusing the term Lock clear, and with Monty...I don't really know what he's claimed, it felt like a non-answer.

The thing is I guess they all could possibly true together but just feels unlikely for a player of his ilk. So if there's a plausible scenario it comes down to tone under pressure, and aside from his post against you, his posts against me have felt relatively good. So I'm not sure what to do with it.

[Askthepizzaguy]

The bulk of my case was based on the passive aggression post, bantering with the dead scums, and arguments against Zack being scum. Plus tinfoils about crumbs that didn't pan out.

I didn't think the reads progression was AI or I didn't take it into account, since he bussed a couple times.

[Askthepizzaguy]

What do you mean? I confronted him about his inconsistency and his defense was him saying on Winston he was sheeping you and forgot, and with me he was misusing the term Lock clear, and with Monty...I don't really know what he's claimed, it felt like a non-answer.

The thing is I guess they all could possibly true together but just feels unlikely for a player of his ilk. So if there's a plausible scenario it comes down to tone under pressure, and aside from his post against you, his posts against me have felt relatively good. So I'm not sure what to do with it.

If it were me in his shoes, I'd be having the time of my life.

Don't assume too much about how he'd be feeling as scum. Everyone has been suggesting scums have to be hiding after the collapse, they gotta be like Cuth or Xia and just afraid to show their faces.

How does that win, if they weren't lock town before the collapse?

And if that assumption doesn't hold true for that specific player, then it's a bad read.

I'll go looking.

[Fredwood]

Yea, never gonna use the term lock clear anymore. At times I think I just said it to sell a point I saw as very towny... rip me I guess on that front, and well learned.

Regarding Monty: I didnt like Monty D1 thats true. But now that Zack has flipped this looks alot better in my eyes... He is not locked by any means, except chox (and I guess pizza, cuz that would be some srsly disgusting play if he was ^^) noone is. Having now reached well into D2 in my reread I've gotten concerned again because he has GH/Zack as 'only one of them can be mafia, they are never partners' or somesuch.... and then goes after GH over Zack even though he sussed Zack on D1 rather strongly.. at this point I'm just trying to make an ordered list of ppl from least scummy to most scummy and hope to get ppl to vote with me on the most scummy ppl. There arent any obvious slam dunk scum cases for anyone around, at least not that I can see so I have to deal in shades of grey and obviously figuring this it out is hard. Which is to no suprise since anyone on me is wrong and outside of that no one seems to be sure about much so yea. Maybe me bringing up town points on ppl I prev looks scummy looks bad from youru perspective or the other way around but I'm not going to tunnel any read at this juncture...

Regarding Winston: iirc I even said in the post where I put him as one of my top points that pizza's case on him was good so I'm good with the read... and before pizza made that case I even said that I'm still pretty null on Winston if I'm not mistaken... can't look it up rn because I want to be through with my reread before the day is over (obviously) and I have to still do some grocery shopping + EoD/night is coming up in game I'm hosting so yea..

This is where he addresses all 3. With Monty he just says he changed his mind on his suss of him, but he never really progressed that much on him leading up to yesterday when he lock cleared Monty. Which again, is part of the lock clearing problem, but he also used the F5 phrasing which was clunky.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Because I wouldn't lynch Monty before I lynch you because of how you've treated Monty so forgivingly this phase (lock clearing) despite some serious suss you threw down on him Day 1 and that you said in the first 30 pages of your re-read that he looked good, when he in fact he didn't, he didn't look bad exactly either.

So what am I to think?

If Town Slaan is rereading, why would Town Slaan over credit Monty for his Body of work day 1, while also forgetting that some of his strongest suss in the game was on Monty. Is there a reason for Town Slaan to do this?

If Scum Slaan is "re-reading" why would Scum Slaan over credit Monty for his body of work day 1 and leave out that some of his strongest suss was directed towards him? I can think of a couple of reasons for this.

Basically every negative point for Monty in my ISO is a negative point for you and since you started with more negative points already it means I'm not going to be able to properly assess Monty.

Now, obviously I'm not fully sold on your lynch today, there's been bad stuff but some fair points, and I don't know if scum allows himself to become a target at this point in the game. At least this is what I would do, but I'm also not that good as scum so.

It's a fair point that you would remember your reads as scum, but I just don't like the idea that such a high town read would just be sheeping without saying anything, especially when it was shared by almost the entire thread. That means I can't trust your reads as town and if I can't trust what you're saying as town, what's the point of having you around?

Winston isn't the only issue, you lock cleared me, you hard sussed Monty, and these weren't consensus reads at the time so there was no sheeping going on. Ok so we can write off one as your misuse of the term lock clear. However, the fact that you accused Monty hard in a long involved post, and just sort of forgot about it just doesn't ring true to me. It wasn't an adoptive read, it was a progression. You can't possibly have the same excuse that you have for the Winston slip.

For reference. I think this is the post about forgetting townies.

Something has to change, posts have to push them to null or they need to slip or something for town reads to go away.

[Askthepizzaguy]

This is where he addresses all 3. With Monty he just says he changed his mind on his suss of him, but he never really progressed that much on him leading up to yesterday when he lock cleared Monty. Which again, is part of the lock clearing problem, but he also used the F5 phrasing which was clunky.

There needs to be an adequate progression from null to lock clear, or even if Monty was suspect.

Instead it appears more like pocketing Monty.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Good ninja post dp ^^

And pocketing Dp, btw.

[Fredwood]

The bulk of my case was based on the passive aggression post, bantering with the dead scums, and arguments against Zack being scum. Plus tinfoils about crumbs that didn't pan out.

I didn't think the reads progression was AI or I didn't take it into account, since he bussed a couple times.

The only progression I have an issue with is Monty

With Winston, when he defended himself against you in his flowery post, he said as scum he wouldn't have killed Winston cus he had a null read on him, when he had Winston as top tier town N1. It gets into WiFOM because why does scum just forget things like that, but why would town basically fabricate a read that they forget later.

With me it just felt odd that he lock cleared me and then put me in his POE. I don't have an issue with anybody putting me in POE but if you lock clear me I need a reason for the retraction, and there was nothing between the lock clear and the retraction to indicate that he had reason to. His point is that he re-read the first 30 pages of the game and hadn't finished, but he had DP and Monty as lock, or near lock when any reason for locking either of them hadn't happened yet either.

Not even to rehash the spew inconsistencies.

The best way to get into my blindside is to respond to my good points like I would respond to good points, which he did for me with a multiple of my issues. So I have a flaw in my meta lol.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Slaan, a big issue I have with your defense is that it's a ton of self-meta.

You'd never crumb a vig as scum vig. Okay, that's plausible. You reacted like I had two heads to that. Probably a bridge too far on my tinfoil.

But, for a lot of other things, your defense has been "I'd never do that" and it's appeared something like three times by now to several different lines of attack.

At a certain point it's just so much WIFOM.

[Fredwood]

There needs to be an adequate progression from null to lock clear, or even if Monty was suspect.

Instead it appears more like pocketing Monty.

Yeah this is what I said at the time, it felt more like appeasing a WIM Monty then a legitimate read. It's why I keep nitpicking his Monty read to death to the detriment of the thread I think. Day 1 where Monty suggest the Tie, Slaan pounces the fuck out of him for it, but with little difference in the game state wrt Monty he final 5's him during day 4.

[Slaan]

Well I think I have said 'lock clear' to so many ppl that wouldnt have much of a PoE left if I ignored them all ^^.

Pizza falling for confirmation bias right now I think... well actually for a bit longer already. Like this was no way pocketing towards dp, why would I try to pocket over smth like that after I said that I still have some doubts about him in the back of my head... would be a bad move overall.

But I can make you guys a deal: Hammer me tomorrow but then promise me to lynch Xia after.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Your game is impressive nonetheless and Csargo's is... suspect.

But the bit about Csargo not wanting to give a specific reason why Zack is scummy was a town point I was having trouble ignoring.

I keep going back and forth on which one of you two looks more likely.

I see arguments for why are you not a scum, but I'm not seeing the townieness except as effort and dedication to the game.

At a certain point, that's not enough, versus Xiahou's actual pressing on the wolves who are the most likely to influence the game, while you defended Zack and were basically forced to push GH.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Well I think I have said 'lock clear' to so many ppl that wouldnt have much of a PoE left if I ignored them all ^^.

Pizza falling for confirmation bias right now I think... well actually for a bit longer already. Like this was no way pocketing towards dp, why would I try to pocket over smth like that after I said that I still have some doubts about him in the back of my head... would be a bad move overall.

But I can make you guys a deal: Hammer me tomorrow but then promise me to lynch Xia after.

Why would I do X as scum is becoming worn out.

I'd always go Csargo after you, not Xia.

If someone really really thinks it must be Xiahou, final 4 seems fine. I'll be spinning in my grave if he flips town for the loss.

[Fredwood]

Either way I think a town Slaan just accepts the lynch and scum or town Csargo pushes the Slaan lynch.

The interesting thing is that they're both pushing Xia. I mean Monty is contesting the read as well so (shrug)

[Fredwood]

Well I think I have said 'lock clear' to so many ppl that wouldnt have much of a PoE left if I ignored them all ^^.

Pizza falling for confirmation bias right now I think... well actually for a bit longer already. Like this was no way pocketing towards dp, why would I try to pocket over smth like that after I said that I still have some doubts about him in the back of my head... would be a bad move overall.

But I can make you guys a deal: Hammer me tomorrow but then promise me to lynch Xia after.

See it's posts like these that scream town under pressure. Then again Wifom.

[Fredwood]

Well I think I have said 'lock clear' to so many ppl that wouldnt have much of a PoE left if I ignored them all ^^.

Pizza falling for confirmation bias right now I think... well actually for a bit longer already. Like this was no way pocketing towards dp, why would I try to pocket over smth like that after I said that I still have some doubts about him in the back of my head... would be a bad move overall.

But I can make you guys a deal: Hammer me tomorrow but then promise me to lynch Xia after.

Also, the good news is that if he's consistently confbiasing both you and CSargo

[Askthepizzaguy]

See it's posts like these that scream town under pressure. Then again Wifom.

WIFOM.

Kill me, then kill blank, is not a worse position if it means people don't kill him as he suggested.

I wouldn't say hammer me, then lynch X as scum, same argument.

His defense is all wine by this point in the game.

[Slaan]

Slaan, a big issue I have with your defense is that it's a ton of self-meta.

You'd never crumb a vig as scum vig. Okay, that's plausible. You reacted like I had two heads to that. Probably a bridge too far on my tinfoil.

But, for a lot of other things, your defense has been "I'd never do that" and it's appeared something like three times by now to several different lines of attack.

At a certain point it's just so much WIFOM.

Well what other defence do I have. It's not like the points brought up are wrong, they are facts (like Winston). I agree that it looks odd and if I were in your shoes I'd probably also look at this and think its sus. There is no logic reason for the Winston thing for example, I didnt 'decide' to forget I had put him in town for a very short time before he got NK'd since it was a non issue after he NK'd and I didnt have to look at him. I didnt look at him at all this game which is why I had him as null until pizza's case which read good enough and since at the time pizzas other reads matched with mine I figured 'yea sure he can be town'... But since I didnt get there myself it wasnt in my mind.

The Monty thing I actually find a bit funny. Someone said to me during D1 that Monty would be player that would possibly the hardest to read... and they were correct. I'm not a big fan of how I flip flop about him but idk what else to do with him. I can't in good conscience just town read him and then ignore when I see smth scummy... same the other way around. Same thing happened with a few other ppl like Barto too I think.

If I have to get lynched for that than so be it, can't change it. I can't clear myself of that, the only I can do is tell you that Xia is most likely the last scum and hope you'll go there after you lynch me :).

[Fredwood]

Why would I do X as scum is becoming worn out.

I'd always go Csargo after you, not Xia.

If someone really really thinks it must be Xiahou, final 4 seems fine. I'll be spinning in my grave if he flips town for the loss.

inb4 Pizza Xia final 3

[Askthepizzaguy]

I think Monty's game is super good, but if you want to put Monty into town and lynch someone I cleared, as someone I perhaps mistakenly cleared, that's acceptable to me.

I even kept re-reading about Cuth, as he's suggesting he would totally collapse as scum in that position.

I think that's maybe true for him, but the dead wolf spew is too strong.

If that's wrong only you can decide in final 4. But I'd leave questions of super deep wolves until that lylo round.

Go for the more likely to be scum based on their behavior toward the dead scums scenarios, and vice-versa.

[Slaan]

Your game is impressive nonetheless and Csargo's is... suspect.

But the bit about Csargo not wanting to give a specific reason why Zack is scummy was a town point I was having trouble ignoring.

I keep going back and forth on which one of you two looks more likely.

I see arguments for why are you not a scum, but I'm not seeing the townieness except as effort and dedication to the game.

At a certain point, that's not enough, versus Xiahou's actual pressing on the wolves who are the most likely to influence the game, while you defended Zack and were basically forced to push GH.

Oh cmon, I was all in favor of the GH lynch just wanted to see what and if he'd type some more. Hell I started sussing GH on D1 in relation to a Logic mafia flip, don't take this from me. I'm sad I didnt get on Zack sure but GH was mine as much as anyone elses imo :(

[Fredwood]

Well what other defence do I have. It's not like the points brought up are wrong, they are facts (like Winston). I agree that it looks odd and if I were in your shoes I'd probably also look at this and think its sus. There is no logic reason for the Winston thing for example, I didnt 'decide' to forget I had put him in town for a very short time before he got NK'd since it was a non issue after he NK'd and I didnt have to look at him. I didnt look at him at all this game which is why I had him as null until pizza's case which read good enough and since at the time pizzas other reads matched with mine I figured 'yea sure he can be town'... But since I didnt get there myself it wasnt in my mind.

The Monty thing I actually find a bit funny. Someone said to me during D1 that Monty would be player that would possibly the hardest to read... and they were correct. I'm not a big fan of how I flip flop about him but idk what else to do with him. I can't in good conscience just town read him and then ignore when I see smth scummy... same the other way around. Same thing happened with a few other ppl like Barto too I think.

If I have to get lynched for that than so be it, can't change it. I can't clear myself of that, the only I can do is tell you that Xia is most likely the last scum and hope you'll go there after you lynch me :).

The Monty issue is that you jump on him, then never really mention him as a possibility ever again, in fact you push him way up your reads list, post GH and Zack flip.

If I'm town, and I suss the fuck out of Monty that hard, regardless of if Monty is town or not, I want it addressed at some point. The leaving it lie is what makes me feel it's more likely the interaction is scum SLaan jumping on an attackable town Monty post rather then Town Slaan catching a scummy Monty post.

[Askthepizzaguy]

If I have to get lynched for that than so be it, can't change it. I can't clear myself of that, the only I can do is tell you that Xia is most likely the last scum and hope you'll go there after you lynch me :).

If it were me, I'd erase everything I've done all game and shake my brain like an etch a sketch in final 4.

But I still have issues voting Xiahou that day. I guess if I somehow made it there (why?) with dp (why?) and fred (why?).

That's about it.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Oh cmon, I was all in favor of the GH lynch just wanted to see what and if he'd type some more. Hell I started sussing GH on D1 in relation to a Logic mafia flip, don't take this from me. I'm sad I didnt get on Zack sure but GH was mine as much as anyone elses imo :(

Did you say something more than "if Logic flips mafia, GH looks bad"?

Did you push him after that in any way?

Or did you agree with him that dp101 looked bad for the cfd, after logic flipped?

That's where you don't get credit, Slaan.

[Slaan]

In addition to not seeing a towniness... I actually feel like you don't want to see it because you sussed me all game. I probably made a mistake when describing my mafia meta to you because you tinfoiled on me basically fromt he start (everyone that looks good on Logic received a lock town expect me who you had at 98% and even after I made other posts you loved you still left me there)...

I mean I'm not ever 100% towny, never ever. But I think that this point you are tunneling on the sus you had on me all game and try to fit everything to match it kinda. Can't do anything about that but thougth to mention how I see this push of yours rn ^^

[Askthepizzaguy]

Calling who the mafia are but not pushing them is not credit.

You give Xia no credit for actually voting wolves when they weren't consensus and it's a dangerous vote, but give yourself credit for calling GH as scummy if Logic flips and then pushing the same narrative as him when Logic did flip.

If you are town and coincidentally happened to do this then yeah, credit. Won't take it away.

But that looks more like PIS than solving.