Trump Thread

[Seamus Fermanagh]

You're wrong about my point and you're also not answering my question anywhere as Monty also pointed out.
My point is not that lying makes him stupid, but that him gaining his welath via lies does not make him a great manager, it says more about the failure of others to check his statements. I don't count gaming the system as a great management skill just like being able to type god mode into a console does not make you the best shooter player deserving of the ESL top prize for whatever league.

His statements, the logic he displays in public and most other indicators do not make me think he is particularly clever. Maybe not stupid either, but certainly not clever. Yet you state you believe him to be a great businessman and a great dealmaker. So I ask you to name some examples where he managed a business very well or made a great deal, before he became president.

If your only argument in favor of him being a great dealmaker is "let's wait and see what he still does as president", you're also doing the cumquad hoc propter somethingorother by claiming he already is a great dealmaker before you know of even a single great deal he made.

Just name two or three concrete examples of great deals he made before he was elected president. There have to be some, or the claim is simply empty.

I said effective, not great. Great are things like the Camp David Accords, Nixon's efforts with the PRC, Google buying Doubleclick and YouTube...None of Trump's deals rise to those levels. Trump did take himself from the verge of bankruptcy (his fault) to a turnaround that totals in the billions (also his fault). Bill Gates or Warren Buffet good? Hell no.

[Husar]

I said effective, not great. Great are things like the Camp David Accords, Nixon's efforts with the PRC, Google buying Doubleclick and YouTube...None of Trump's deals rise to those levels. Trump did take himself from the verge of bankruptcy (his fault) to a turnaround that totals in the billions (also his fault). Bill Gates or Warren Buffet good? Hell no.

That still doesn't prove him an effective manager. Plenty of gurus just scam the right gullible people and become rich that way, that doesn't mean you could give them a well-run company tomorrow and watch them succeed.

[a completely inoffensive name]

The ability to take advantage of the abused and unfortunate is not clever nor a show of any strong intellect. And let's be clear, when we talk about Trump's position it is entirely built upon the unfortunate and the abused, down to the fake promises of reviving the rust belt to its 1960s heyday.

If we want to elevate our opinion of Trump's intellect above Grade A moron, we must be ready to bestow the same level of praise to Jim Jones and Charles Manson. Cults of personality don't require intellect, only strong ego's and willing listeners.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

The ability to take advantage of the abused and unfortunate is not clever nor a show of any strong intellect. And let's be clear, when we talk about Trump's position it is entirely built upon the unfortunate and the abused, down to the fake promises of reviving the rust belt to its 1960s heyday.

If we want to elevate our opinion of Trump's intellect above Grade A moron, we must be ready to bestow the same level of praise to Jim Jones and Charles Manson. Cults of personality don't require intellect, only strong ego's and willing listeners.

Gotta agree on the Rust Belt stuff. That kind of factory job in those numbers simply cannot recur.

[Montmorency]

By the way, doesn't Kim Kardashian come to mind? At least as good a brander and salesperson as Trump.

Though it could help that she presents as a glamorous high-life woman and Trump presents as a crusty gasbag.

Both ultimately have to disappear.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

That still doesn't prove him an effective manager. Plenty of gurus just scam the right gullible people and become rich that way, that doesn't mean you could give them a well-run company tomorrow and watch them succeed.

I am not sure he is an effective manager. I know that the idea behind the "everybody unsure all the time, always competing with one another" model is supposed to generate high performance from people busting but to not fail and get trashed by their peers, but I have problems with that approach to management in business and suspect it doesn't work for [insert favorite synonym for excrement here] in government.

[spmetla]

I am not sure he is an effective manager. I know that the idea behind the "everybody unsure all the time, always competing with one another" model is supposed to generate high performance from people busting but to not fail and get trashed by their peers, but I have problems with that approach to management in business and suspect it doesn't work for [insert favorite synonym for excrement here] in government.

He's mentally past his prime and just doesn't understand the complexities of the job his in. I don't think him a moron but it's clear that he isn't thinking things through.
I think he's been surrounded by too many yes-men the last two decades that has made him believe his own BS about his 'gut instinct' over facts and figures.
Private business work models don't do well in government agencies. Hiring and firing aren't the same, the goals aren't supposed to be a profit (except the IRS and USPS), and saying outlandish things has real repercussions instead of just steadying stockholders or supporting 'the brand.'

We in the US have always assumed that good generals or businessmen must do well in government and most of the time that's just not true. MacNamara assumed he knew more then the generals and essentially got us into Vietnam while trying to get us out of it.
Businessmen have a much simpler goal in just making a profit or raising stock prices.

[rory_20_uk]

Most businesses most of the time undergo limited scrutiny. And most do not stand up to intense scrutiny. Be that Amazon's tax evasion, Facebook and Google's use of data or Apple's tax "approach". The one constant is that they are amoral and do whatever they can to help themselves - if massive, well resourced and profitable companies either lack the will or the want to follow all the rules it is hardly surprising that others equally do not.

So in swaggers Donnie and takes the view since he now is the government and hence much more powerful he can much more easily bully smaller entities - which now is almost everyone, break even more laws - since he writes them and is perplexed that his subordinates - which is everyone - do not act like the cowed minions at private companies who can generally be silenced quite easily and seem to think they follow some sort of set of laws which Donnie didn't agree with. Like Judge Dread, Donnie's take on it is "I AM the Law!!!"

To almost everyone else it is patently obvious that the USA has a system of checks and balances that is almost designed to create gridlock, so fearful were the founding fathers of becoming another UK / France where the sovereign power has, well, power. Not to Donald who so clearly wants to be a Dictator like all the cool countries - Russia, the Philippines, Turkey, North Korea. And three out of the four were very recently democracies, so why can't his democracy get in line and let him enjoy his latest toy?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Most businesses most of the time undergo limited scrutiny. And most do not stand up to intense scrutiny. Be that Amazon's tax evasion, Facebook and Google's use of data or Apple's tax "approach". The one constant is that they are amoral and do whatever they can to help themselves - if massive, well resourced and profitable companies either lack the will or the want to follow all the rules it is hardly surprising that others equally do not.

So in swaggers Donnie and takes the view since he now is the government and hence much more powerful he can much more easily bully smaller entities - which now is almost everyone, break even more laws - since he writes them and is perplexed that his subordinates - which is everyone - do not act like the cowed minions at private companies who can generally be silenced quite easily and seem to think they follow some sort of set of laws which Donnie didn't agree with. Like Judge Dread, Donnie's take on it is "I AM the Law!!!"

To almost everyone else it is patently obvious that the USA has a system of checks and balances that is almost designed to create gridlock, so fearful were the founding fathers of becoming another UK / France where the sovereign power has, well, power. Not to Donald who so clearly wants to be a Dictator like all the cool countries - Russia, the Philippines, Turkey, North Korea. And three out of the four were very recently democracies, so why can't his democracy get in line and let him enjoy his latest toy?

I'd like to say that you are wrong, that this apparent swaggering attitude is just for show. I would like to.....

[Strike For The South]

So Trump got his doctor to lie about his health and ol Rudy just admitted on live TV that he paid Daniels.

What a time to be alive.

[drone]

As many times as I've said he's an idiot, he probably does have an above average IQ. He has two problems though: he is intellectually lazy, and both his massive ego and his inferiority complex are impairing his cognitive effectiveness. Bigly.