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  1. #1

    Default Re: Democrat 2020

    Quote Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name View Post
    I'm voting for Williamson btw.
    Not sure if serious.

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    I can't say I'm following the issue closely, but can you actually believe that the other candidates will follow "Bernie's" agenda as much as he would? You say the others are more authentic, but Bernie has basically had this agenda for over 20 years, if that is more authentic than someone who just has it now because the old guy showed that it can be trendy nowadays, then I don't know what makes authenticity anymore.
    What is the concept of authenticity as a particularly valuable trait compared to character, executive ability, and experience? You don't elect a leader merely for things they believe, or else you would maybe vote for me and that would be a silly idea. A lot of people think Trump is "authentic" too, and the way to make this coherent despite Trump being one of the most prodigious liars and eminence fronters in human history is if many of his supporters like the idea of someone letting loose and acting like a slovenly piece of shit with no repercussions. All that, and research finds that politicians usually try to effect the promises they make and positions they stake while campaigning; Trump has certainly done so, he knows his stakeholders. So what exactly is the independent value of "authenticity?"

    I would say Warren has developed the ideas Sanders subscribes to more comprehensively than he has; while he keeps repeating the same lines about how billionaires and corporations have too much power, Warren identifies concrete social problems derived from that fact and offers a map to address them, while connecting them all to a comprehensive narrative of economic freedom.

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    Not really comprehensive in the sense that every major problem is identified and addressed in terms of the long-term world-historical transformation necessary to save humanity, but no politician has offered that scope, and Sanders is far from it.


    It's not wrong to change your mind, but the Democrats have always had the great ideas and delivered very little in the past decades. Perhaps in part because they couldn't, but somehow the Republicans often can do a lot more, or so it appears. I'm not sure I buy that they're all serious, plus they mostly seem to have picked one or two of his ideas to differentiate themselves instead of going with the whole package. You'd have to go through 3-4 presidencies to get all of it. (you might have to anyway of course)
    First we should revisit some history. To simplify, the Democratic mainstream was pushing many of these "democratic socialist" (admittedly New Deal liberal) ideas in the 1970s, and some of them, like universal healthcare and a job guarantee, appeared to be close to fruition (just like union militancy seemed to be reaching new heights in the 1970s). Democrats continued to maintain strong majorities in both chambers of Congress. This is why Nixon's record of signing progressive legislation can be confusing at first glance. You have to understand that these emerged from the Democratic Congress and Nixon only signed them because he felt he had little choice but to pay lip service to Keynesianism. Unfortunately this was a very bad moment for left-wing politics because economic stagflation, social upheaval (e.g. the reaction of white Americans to the civil rights movement), the beginnings of capital flight and globalization as we know it severely weakened the position of the radical left and of labor movements after Nixon. The Republicans pivoted to become the party of neoliberal business and social reaction. Because the Republicans won resounding victories throughout the 1980s in the White House and states, the Democratic establishment moved right to a degree and also accepted neoliberalism. This paid off to some extent with the Clintonian Third Way victories of the 1990s, but it also meant that a lot of the major legislation they managed to pass under Clinton had a poisonous element of being too assimilated to Republican principles (e.g. welfare reform, repeal of Glass-Steagall). The fruit of this was in 2000 when the 5 Republican justices awarded Bush Jr. the presidency even though the Dem candidate Gore probably won Florida narrowly. As you know Bush Jr. proceeded to have a Top 3 Worst Presidency, and while the Congressional Republicans still struggled to achieve their goals of undermining Medicare and Social Security, the Democratic politicians elected by now tended to be conservative in the sense of very cautious and there was little appetite to stick out their collective necks in advancing bold new programs. (Though some good ones, like CHIP, did maintain the party's pro-worker agenda on the margins).

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    Another layer of American politics you should keep in mind is that between 1945 and 1980+ the two parties hadn't really sorted yet (e.g. there were segregationists or post-segregationists in the Dem caucus even up to the Obama admin), so there was considerable cross-party voting throughout the mid-20th century that hasn't existed for many years.


    The short story of the Obama admin is that, while he was mistaken in trying so hard to appeal to Republicans, and he was too influenced by neoliberal advice on topics like stimulating economic recovery, retraining, and school choice, his record of left legislation is the most extensive and dramatic since the 1960s, the ACA being only one of his accomplishments. What you have to understand is that the Congressional Dems didn't have the numbers (e.g. 60+ solid Senators) to pass more sweeping changes, and after 2010 of course we saw increasing Republican majorities that foreclosed any possibility of progress. Just to use the ACA as an example, the window of time where there were 60 Senators to pass it lasted a couple of months, and conservative Senators like Joe Lieberman (who was retiring anyway) held it hostage until it shed major provisions like the public option; Obama couldn't do anything about the intransigence of conservative Dems or Independents. To speak directly then, the Congress was the limiting factor on Democratic ideas and policies.

    Now, part of the reason the Democrats lost the House and so many state offices during the Obama admin is that Democratic voters themselves tend to place too much emphasis on the Presidency at the expense of all other offices, including legislative offices generally. This is a serious weakness in mindset because the history I told should impress on you the lesson of how important an active legislature is to policy success. (As an aside I would remind you that the legislature possesses all the regulatory powers the executive lacks; though Trump seems to be very active in using what executive power he does have, he uses it mostly to wreck and sabotage, which is of course easier than building something.) The Republican base has more discipline IMO.

    Though I skipped over Jimmy Carter, you should mark the legislative-executive relationship between his and Nixon's terms. Despite having a somewhat stronger Dem Congress than there was under Nixon, Carter was a muddled executive who did not understand how to prioritize policy and work with Congress to get it passed. That's why he personally couldn't get progress on his legislative wishlist (though Congress was still legislating its own priorities, including where they overlapped). Some accused Carter of being so enamored of his good ideas that he thought he could simply dictate them and they would just become reality. A lesson with respect to Sanders and his weak record as a Rep/Senator, or his murky record as a manager, I would say. Though of course a Republican president would never cooperate with a Democratic Congress today, the derived principle remains that a strong Dem Congress with an active left flank (e.g. AOC) combined even with a conservative Democratic President like Joe Biden is worth more than a weak Democratic or even a Republican Congress combined with a radical President who makes Sanders look like Margaret Thatcher. If a progressive Congress wants to pass progressive legislation, it will get it done - all the President needs to do is sign it.
    Last edited by Montmorency; 06-29-2019 at 18:21.
    Vitiate Man.

    History repeats the old conceits
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  2. #2

    Default Re: Democrat 2020

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    Not sure if serious.
    love will drive out Trump's hate. Then we will call New Zealand.


  3. #3

    Default Re: Democrat 2020

    Quote Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name View Post
    love will drive out Trump's hate. Then we will call New Zealand.
    But at the top of every mountain is another, taller, mountain. And there are no mountains in New Zealand.
    Vitiate Man.

    History repeats the old conceits
    The glib replies, the same defeats


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  4. #4

    Default Re: Democrat 2020

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    But at the top of every mountain is another, taller, mountain. And there are no mountains in New Zealand.
    Just to nit pick your premise about a strong congress > strong president. You can't get a strong congress without a strong president precisely because of the Democratic mentality you pointed out. The game is to have a strong presidential candidate to carry all the down ticket choices.

    I do have some hope that we are changing that mentality by focusing on the Congressional leaders, in particular we need to shine more attention on Mitch McConnell and less on Donald Trump.


  5. #5

    Default Re: Democrat 2020

    Quote Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name View Post
    Just to nit pick your premise about a strong congress > strong president. You can't get a strong congress without a strong president precisely because of the Democratic mentality you pointed out. The game is to have a strong presidential candidate to carry all the down ticket choices.

    I do have some hope that we are changing that mentality by focusing on the Congressional leaders, in particular we need to shine more attention on Mitch McConnell and less on Donald Trump.

    To some extent the coattails effect does manifest, theoretically jetzt erst recht, but it's only relevant every four years, and if you can't get the electorate to see the bigger picture then - especially insofar as they aren't paying attention to executive branch minutiae anyway - they* will wind up routinely disappointed by their "Great (Wo)Man" candidate who ostensibly fails to live up to their expectations because they never seem to have the numbers even to ram the popular reforms through.

    Which breeds cynicism, both-sidesism, and apathy. A fatal feedback loop if it remains in action at this juncture. We're probably about to put to the test which presidential disposition among "Better things are possible" and "I can't wave a magic wand" feels more disappointing when the legislature is stymied.

    But the Dem establishment is to blame as well to some extent, for hyping the Presidency above all else and shunting the bulk of party/base resources toward the presidential races. And this even while failing to develop their grassroots, most dramatically when Obama dissolved his campaigning instrument-cum-community OfA (Organizing for Action) after 2008. Trump never stopped campaigning and energizing his grassroots organizations, and it's working about as well for him as anything he does. Looking back in time again, the Tea Party movement demonstrated the importance of an energized and on-message grassroots, even if that grassroots turned out to be mostly astroturfed by billionaires.

    But attitudes are shifting. If the Democratic electorate gets away from blindly trusting state institutions and pining for bipartisan comity, we're on the right track. Hopefully the Kavanaugh confirmation signals a long-term decline in Democrats' comfort with the Supreme Court.



    By the way, on the subject of Congress vs. President, because when writing sweeping comments you always miss something, re: my treatment of the Nixon years I want to attest that the Dem Congress certainly did not always get its way even when it had the votes, such as when Nixon vetoed a federally-funded universal childcare bill (less generous than Warren's I think).

    The bill was just short of veto-proof, and the kicker is that Pat "Monster Mash" Buchanan was involved in shutting it down.

    The goal was not just to kill the bill but also to bury the idea of a national child-care entitlement forever. "I insisted we not just say we can't afford it right now, in which case you get pilot programs or whatever," Buchanan said. The veto message was actually a toned-down version of what Buchanan had suggested -- he wanted to accuse the bill's drafters of "the Sovietization of American children." But it did the job Buchanan... had hoped it would do. It delivered the message that it was much more politically dangerous to work in favor of expanded child care than to oppose it.
    There was little public attention surrounding the bill at the time Congress was debating it. After the veto, though, the very idea of government-funded child care spawned a fantastic misinformation campaign, complete with rumors that any such efforts would inevitably lead to government indoctrination of small children, and child labor unions empowered to fight their parents.
    Child labor unions? Fighting adults? You mean like - THIS? Well shit, we have truly been consigned to the worst timeline.



    On the other other hand, a timely example of the value of controlling legislatures is New York leftists breaking the mutually-gerrymandered hold on Albany in the 2018 elections, over the past 6 months passing one of the more extensive rafts of legislation in New York history, including the most ambitious decarbonization targets in the country - despite Andrew "The Machine" Cuomo remaining as governor. Though it would certainly be easier on New York City if one of his last two Democratic challengers had beat him in the primary.
    Vitiate Man.

    History repeats the old conceits
    The glib replies, the same defeats


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  6. #6

    Default Re: Democrat 2020

    I just finished listening to Biden's latest book about his son Beau, and I can't help but feel proud that he is a US Senator.
    Must have been listening for 4-5 hours during work, almost started tearing up in front of coworkers.

    If only he was 10 years younger, but I'll say this I will not hesitate to cast my vote if he wins the nomination.

    Monty (and anyone else still reading this thread), I would recommend listening to the audiobook, if only because it is not so much a "pre-running political book" but more of a book about loss and how he used work in between the rough moments to get him through.


  7. #7

    Default Re: Democrat 2020

    Quote Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name View Post
    I just finished listening to Biden's latest book about his son Beau, and I can't help but feel proud that he is a US Senator.
    Must have been listening for 4-5 hours during work, almost started tearing up in front of coworkers.

    If only he was 10 years younger, but I'll say this I will not hesitate to cast my vote if he wins the nomination.

    Monty (and anyone else still reading this thread), I would recommend listening to the audiobook, if only because it is not so much a "pre-running political book" but more of a book about loss and how he used work in between the rough moments to get him through.
    I've heard the stories about his personal life, hard stuff. I'm firm in my calculations of value. He wasn't the most conservative Democrat of his time, but he hasn't been a good statesman. At risk of coming off coarse, the Presidency is for closers. He's a good father? Let him go home and play with his (grand)kids.

    I won't hesitate to vote for Biden but for different reasons.
    Vitiate Man.

    History repeats the old conceits
    The glib replies, the same defeats


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  8. #8
    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: Democrat 2020

    Quote Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name View Post
    I just finished listening to Biden's latest book about his son Beau, and I can't help but feel proud that he is a US Senator.
    Must have been listening for 4-5 hours during work, almost started tearing up in front of coworkers.

    If only he was 10 years younger, but I'll say this I will not hesitate to cast my vote if he wins the nomination.

    Monty (and anyone else still reading this thread), I would recommend listening to the audiobook, if only because it is not so much a "pre-running political book" but more of a book about loss and how he used work in between the rough moments to get him through.
    He has had some serious personal tragedy, but that is not what this about.

    Like Monty I will cast a vote for him, if only because it will help the Democrats generally.
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

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