The XYZelensky Affair and the Whole Impeachment Shebang

[CrossLOPER]

We're seeing threats of violence from the right. Does that count towards the definition of tyranny?

I may actually go with rory and greymaids on this one. After what happened to the Leave Campaign after the referendum, I don't think anyone has any concrete plan to do anything except take the money and run away to Russia.

[Montmorency]

I agree that fascists reject the normal communicative function of language.

I may actually go with rory and greymaids on this one. After what happened to the Leave Campaign after the referendum, I don't think anyone has any concrete plan to do anything except take the money and run away to Russia.

I'm not sure what that has to do with this thread, but the point is that the politicians of one major American party, for the sake of unlimited political power and out of fear of their constituents, are willing to tolerate their president using his office for political gain and personal enrichment while ruthlessly violating the law and eliminating or suborning the career civil service in favor of party flunkies and personal loyalists. They support him and themselves by restricting the electoral access of the lower-class and non-white when not committing outright electoral fraud. It is the continuation of an explicit generational project to capture the institutions of government and it has been wildly successful. In other words, the entire right-wing of the most powerful country in the world is a criminal junta and a conspiracy to seize power.

[a completely inoffensive name]

I'm honestly scared now at the lengths Trump will go to prevent losing.

[Montmorency]

I'm honestly scared now at the lengths Trump will go to prevent losing.

Are you still surprised? You shouldn't be.

Here's a helpful heuristic: Whatever bad shit you see them doing at any given moment, it will necessarily, dialectically get worse because they haven't reached the logical conclusion at the confluence of their goals and methods.

Please, please, remember, for now and for 10 years from now, if there's nothing else you will remember of our interactions: The worst-case scenario is the likeliest scenario.

"There is no bottom" etc.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I'm honestly scared now at the lengths Trump will go to prevent losing.

Worry when you see a repeal of the two-term limitation pass one of the houses of Congress. All the sturm and drang Trump may care to deliver does not carry with a majority of the electorate, only his rabidly supportive 30%. I have no fears of a civil war or a race war and we are too aware of "wag the dog" conflicts as political tools to be snowed under by that (Note: Monty will likely assert that GWB's administration did just that in 2003 with the poorly reviewed (at best) evidence on Sadam Hussein's efforts at MDW; I would assert that that is one of the reasons WHY that card would be tough to play again right now).

[a completely inoffensive name]

Worry when you see a repeal of the two-term limitation pass one of the houses of Congress. All the sturm and drang Trump may care to deliver does not carry with a majority of the electorate, only his rabidly supportive 30%. I have no fears of a civil war or a race war and we are too aware of "wag the dog" conflicts as political tools to be snowed under by that (Note: Monty will likely assert that GWB's administration did just that in 2003 with the poorly reviewed (at best) evidence on Sadam Hussein's efforts at MDW; I would assert that that is one of the reasons WHY that card would be tough to play again right now).

This is such insane levels of cowardice masked as caution.

The dude is clearly strong-arming other countries to influence our election in his favor. You say worry when Congress starts dismantling the Constitution? Jesus man, you might as well ask people to take a day off when the illegals are executed in the streets.

[Greyblades]

You're edging on hysterical.

[a completely inoffensive name]

You're edging on hysterical.

I just understand the road this leads to, and you know where it goes as well.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

This is such insane levels of cowardice masked as caution.

The dude is clearly strong-arming other countries to influence our election in his favor. You say worry when Congress starts dismantling the Constitution? Jesus man, you might as well ask people to take a day off when the illegals are executed in the streets.

I said it that way because it ain't gonna happen. People are reacting to this asshat as though the system will let him roll over and declare a dictatorship by fiat. Our system, culture, and outlook won't permit such absent a civil war. And if he somehow managed to inspire his yahoo 30% to take up arms they would lose. Instead, he probably loses in November and flitters away into the twitterverse in mid-January 2021.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

This is such insane levels of cowardice masked as caution.

The dude is clearly strong-arming other countries to influence our election in his favor. You say worry when Congress starts dismantling the Constitution? Jesus man, you might as well ask people to take a day off when the illegals are executed in the streets.

And you can shove the 'cowardice' comment sideways up your own orifice of your choice.

[CrossLOPER]

And you can shove the 'cowardice' comment sideways up your own orifice of your choice.

I would replace "cowardice" with unwarranted hopefulness. It's just drawing another line in the sand, and belaying commitment.

[a completely inoffensive name]

And you can shove the 'cowardice' comment sideways up your own orifice of your choice.

I apologize, I took it too far.

I still disagree with your sentiment, for an example of what is to come, look at Oregon: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_O...lican_walkouts

Refusal to comply with the institutions they were elected to, with the full force of armed militia's. Now that it has worked once, they will keep doing it.

[Montmorency]

Worry when you see a repeal of the two-term limitation pass one of the houses of Congress. All the sturm and drang Trump may care to deliver does not carry with a majority of the electorate, only his rabidly supportive 30%. I have no fears of a civil war or a race war and we are too aware of "wag the dog" conflicts as political tools to be snowed under by that (Note: Monty will likely assert that GWB's administration did just that in 2003 with the poorly reviewed (at best) evidence on Sadam Hussein's efforts at MDW; I would assert that that is one of the reasons WHY that card would be tough to play again right now).

You don't have to tiptoe around it, it was lies. The Bush administration consciously and deliberately manufactured lies to create a pretext to invade Iraq, which it had wanted to do since before 9/11. This is all well-documented and common knowledge. I mean, it was kind of out there even in 2002/3, but afterwards there were whole Congressional inquiries and everything that brought thousands of pages of evidence to public attention.

Besides that historical note, I would note that Trump supporters are especially dangerous because they don't need manufactured evidence, they will literally reject the evidence of their eyes and ears on command. Trump can lie about anything he likes and they will literally believe it. See the especially ludicrous spectacle of Trump releasing a smoking gun for modified limited hangout and then shamelessly declaring that it says what it doesn't and doesn't say what it does, before - and after - personally confirming and *repeating* the substance publicly. The more insipid Republicans then go about debasing themselves by perpetually pretending lack of familiarity with the events when pressed for comment. But again they ultimately subordinate themselves to the subset who will support Trump regardless of what he does that they know is wrong. The former are merely evil. It's the larger group slouching through a haze dreaming dreams who are marked most by their troglodytism, represented by bestial converts like Lindsay Graham, who are more frightening for being both evil and stupid, knowing and representing their constituents so very well.

Though from the perspective of the Republican Party seizing power, being the party of genuinely stupid people hooked on dark soma is a definite inherent weakness. This correlation between malice and stupidity is perhaps our best hope for survival. Force may shit on reason's back, but the weight of the inability to correctly interpret empirical reality must weigh eventually. The trick is to minimize the damage.

This is such insane levels of cowardice masked as caution.

The dude is clearly strong-arming other countries to influence our election in his favor. You say worry when Congress starts dismantling the Constitution? Jesus man, you might as well ask people to take a day off when the illegals are executed in the streets.

He's been working the hinges since before he got into office. He has and will continue to do a lot of damage. But if he loses re-election we 'only' have to worry about low-level violence and the institutional damage of an (loudly) unwilling transfer of power in succession. If the guy was smarter and more in step with the Republican Party our prospects would be much bleaker. Imagine what a dedicated propagandist and ideologue like Tucker Carlson could accomplish in office. Thankfully, he is quite uncommonly stupid and irrational for a human being, and as noted above so are many Republicans.

I just understand the road this leads to, and you know where it goes as well.

He knows what side he's on.

I said it that way because it ain't gonna happen. People are reacting to this asshat as though the system will let him roll over and declare a dictatorship by fiat. Our system, culture, and outlook won't permit such absent a civil war. And if he somehow managed to inspire his yahoo 30% to take up arms they would lose. Instead, he probably loses in November and flitters away into the twitterverse in mid-January 2021.

Again, cause and symptom - it's the Republican Party we have to worry most about. Not because they will likely back this guy this time around if he wants to seize the republic, but because they will the next one from the start.

[CrossLOPER]

Thankfully, he is quite uncommonly stupid and irrational for a human being, and as noted above so are many Republicans.

This isn't a viable safeguard.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Trump himself will not become a dictator or tyrant, the situation in the US - political and cultural - simply won't allow it. However, Trump can do real damage to the Republic by corrupting American civil society (already done) and moving America that bit closer to an actual Despot.

The fact the Democrats and moderate Republicans are following Trump in a race to the bottom is the real problem here.

[Montmorency]

This isn't a viable safeguard.

It's one of the best we have, alongside sic semper tyrannis, but you're right:

Profit, not politics: Trump allies sought Ukraine gas deal

As Rudy Giuliani was pushing Ukrainian officials last spring to investigate one of Donald Trump’s main political rivals, a group of individuals with ties to the president and his personal lawyer were also active in the former Soviet republic.

Their aims were profit, not politics. This circle of businessmen and Republican donors touted connections to Giuliani and Trump while trying to install new management at the top of Ukraine’s massive state gas company. Their plan was to then steer lucrative contracts to companies controlled by Trump allies, according to two people with knowledge of their plans.

HOLY FUCKING SHIT every accusation is always a confession. These reports of unlimited malfeasance always make me smile.

Trump himself will not become a dictator or tyrant, the situation in the US - political and cultural - simply won't allow it. However, Trump can do real damage to the Republic by corrupting American civil society (already done) and moving America that bit closer to an actual Despot.

The fact the Democrats and moderate Republicans are following Trump in a race to the bottom is the real problem here.

Democrats certainly aren't rofl.

I know you are aware this isn't true. Farmers are totally screwed and will continue to be screwed. They can't even distribute aid properly. I guess it helps that they will still vote for him, even if his policies absolutely wreck them.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-u...-idUSKCN1VY0ZT

You're still not getting it. Factual accuracy is not relevant in these circles. What is false may be truer than true in the truest sense, while anyone can use facts to prove what can't be right.

This type of complacency is honestly the most alarming thing I have seen. It's not Trump, it's not his drones, it's not Farage or anything else. It's the fact that people living in democracies are willing to trash their own house if it means they feel better about themselves in the short term.

It's like the old-school political nihilism. Refer to the Dostoevsky quote I dredged up a year ago:

EDIT: Sorry, here it is.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Then--this is all what you say--new economic relations will be established, all ready-made and worked out with mathematical exactitude, so that every possible question will vanish in the twinkling of an eye, simply because every possible answer to it will be provided. Then the "Palace of Crystal" will be built. Then ... In fact, those will be halcyon days. Of course there is no guaranteeing (this is my comment) that it will not be, for instance, frightfully dull then (for what will one have to do when everything will be calculated and tabulated), but on the other hand everything will be extraordinarily rational. Of course boredom may lead you to anything. It is boredom sets one sticking golden pins into people, but all that would not matter. What is bad (this is my comment again) is that I dare say people will be thankful for the gold pins then. Man is stupid, you know, phenomenally stupid; or rather he is not at all stupid, but he is so ungrateful that you could not find another like him in all creation. I, for instance, would not be in the least surprised if all of a sudden, A PROPOS of nothing, in the midst of general prosperity a gentleman with an ignoble, or rather with a reactionary and ironical, countenance were to arise and, putting his arms akimbo, say to us all: "I say, gentleman, hadn't we better kick over the whole show and scatter rationalism to the winds, simply to send these logarithms to the devil, and to enable us to live once more at our own sweet foolish will!" That again would not matter, but what is annoying is that he would be sure to find followers--such is the nature of man. And all that for the most foolish reason, which, one would think, was hardly worth mentioning: that is, that man everywhere and at all times, whoever he may be, has preferred to act as he chose and not in the least as his reason and advantage dictated. And one may choose what is contrary to one's own interests, and sometimes one POSITIVELY OUGHT (that is my idea). One's own free unfettered choice, one's own caprice, however wild it may be, one's own fancy worked up at times to frenzy--is that very "most advantageous advantage" which we have overlooked, which comes under no classification and against which all systems and theories are continually being shattered to atoms. And how do these wiseacres know that man wants a normal, a virtuous choice? What has made them conceive that man must want a rationally advantageous choice? What man wants is simply INDEPENDENT choice, whatever that independence may cost and wherever it may lead. And choice, of course, the devil only knows what choice.