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Thread: UK Politics Thread

  1. #151
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK Politics Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    Is this another "Brexit is evil, you're evil" argument?

    If you believe that, justify the impoverishment of Greece.
    I was talking about a belief that one should not be threatened with violence for one's political beliefs. I was talking about a trust in expert opinion and evidence over faith and rhetoric. I was talking about holding politicians responsible for what they say and do.

    It's not just Brexit, although it's how it has manifested in the UK. It's the Bannonite politics that has Trump as its form in the US, and is attempting to spread in other countries too.

  2. #152
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Apparently, Johnson now wants to replace the Supreme Court that opposed him with his appointees, while the Mail (notoriously a backer of the far right in the 1930s) practically accuses his opponents of treason.

    Threatening the opposition with violence, getting control of the judiciary, accusing the opposition of treason. Where is the basis for civil discourse?

  3. #153
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    It's basically insulting. Either you hold no meaningful convictions worth discussion, or you do and you want to preserve your comfort by preemptively insulating yourself.

    The offensive part is holding your inevitably tendentious values - which you evidently do take very seriously - and pretending they are beyond challenge because you consider yourself "dispassionate" or because politics is like a "horse race" to you. But the variance in premises and trade-offs is enormous, and the difference in effect is enormous. Politics trades in lives, and it feel as though you want to put value in your values while glibly assuring anyone who disagrees that it's all the same in the end, like a preference in consumer media. You can't have it both ways.

    It's easier to respect someone who owns their thumos rather than trolling with it.
    I fear you're inventing enemies and slights that don't exist.
    "tendentious - (of speech or writing) expressing or supporting a particular opinion that many other people disagree with"

    I wasn't aware that backroom had been quietly rebranded as the home of groupthink!
    But, to logically connect that statement with the rest of your sentence:
    "...pretending they are beyond challenge because..."

    When have I ever claimed they were beyond challenge?
    I refuse to have them arbitrarily invalidated as unworthy, yes, but that is demanding no more than the common decency I would assign to anyone else: namely refusing the hubris that I have a window into another mans soul, such that I understand the values and motivations that drive their ideology - and consider myself able to pronounce judgement upon it!
    "...But the variance in premises and trade-offs is enormous, and the difference in effect is enormous. Politics trades in lives..."

    Ah! Perhaps I see now where you're going with this. Rather than it being the fault of you (in presuming to have a unique window through which to judge my soul), perhaps the fault is mine in holding views SO far outside the mainstream that it is legitimate for everyone else to deem these values and motivations as invalid.
    Fair enough, in a world of Hitler's and Stalin's perhaps it is possible to be so extreme - to hold views that are so dangerous - that it is a necessary collective act to invalidate them.

    In which case I must ask the question: what are these values and motivations that are so thoroughly reprehensible:

    Exhibit #1 - The very pits of absolutist refusal to compromise!
    https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...post2053795098
    sure, i would be content with that as my natural preference, but please recall that i have always said that i recognized that the result wss not decisive enough to justify this 'dream' and that i was happy to maintain britain closely aligned as a (low end) social democracy rather than a market economy (like canada/oz).
    im the very heart and soul of compromise. ;)
    Yes, I can see that there...

    Exhibit #2 - The extremism of my ideological framework:
    https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...post2053794931
    "I am a negative-liberty classical liberal, believing in:
    The market economy rather than social democracy
    Taxation to achieve public services rather redistribution
    Regulation by demonstrable-harm rather than the precautionary-principle
    An activist foreign policy rather than platitudes about soft-power
    A majoritarian electoral system with adversarial politics rather than coalitions and consensus politics
    EU membership might suit those who take the opposite view, but I see it as a ratchet that ceaslessly works to lever british society from the norms that are my preference."
    So extreme...

    Exhibit #3 - A willingness to impose staggering costs on others to achieve my preferences:
    https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...post2053792539
    "My preferred option" is not no deal, despite your best efforts to spin it so.
    And you of course know this to be the case because:
    1. I have said that 52:48 is not decisive enough to justify the fundamental transformation of society as a first goal.
    2. I have said that I am quite happy to trade a close economic relationship for a continuance of the social democratic model.
    3. I have said I would be quite content to see something akin to chequers.
    Why not the customs Union? Because:
    1. I see the EU has having a naturally protectionist bent, which is why coffee beans have a 5% tariff but ground coffee has a 25% tariff.
    2. Trade is a tool of foreign policy.... which would be in the EU's hands rather than our own, and I like our activist foreign policy.
    3. Because it is in no way necessary to achieve EFTA, which is a desirable body to influence via membership.
    Why not the Single Market? Because:
    1. While I have no problem with goods (globally governed anyway), there is no moral or rational justification to for losing control of Services regulation.
    2. As well as a general hostility to Services which we do not share, it is once again a tool of foreign policy that I do not want to see slowly suffocated.
    3. Because it comes with the flanking policies of social, employment and climate change regulation, the first two of which are first-order reasons to leave.
    Why threaten no deal? Because:
    1. Every negotiation is only as strong as its ability to walk away.
    2. This [IS] a power struggle. We are a significant actor, and it is in the EU's interest to contain and control us. This is geopolitics 101.
    3. Because if we're forced into a bad deal, it will poison UK:EU relations and our domestic politics for a generation. Nobody, least of all you, wants that outcome!
    Chequers achieves:
    1. No regression of flanking policies, which is better than full adherence
    2. Common rule-book for Goods, but freedom for Services
    3. The ability to join TTIP, which is a worthy goal for geopolitical reasons alone (europe will be a backwater in the 21st century, all the fun will be in asia)
    That all said:
    1. As long as it achieves the core aims of democratic self-governance I'm not religious about any of the technical items above
    2. As long as it retains our geopolitical freedom then i'm happy to compromise on the details, i.e. no unilateral guillotine on access as a threat
    3. If we can't achieve the above, then yes, I am content that no-deal is the only way forward.
    I have a feeling - much like earlier debates - this is a post I will be referring back to regularly as a result of being serially misrepresented in succeeding months.
    Just not sure whether these staggering costs are: a) the possibility of 5-10 years with a half percentage point less growth from no deal, or b) taking away your dream of using the EU to make the UK into a continental style collective social democracy...?

    So what we have really concluded is not that I demand protection from having my values and motivations challenged, but that you have deemed my views so far from the 'decent' norm that you should have the privilege of branding them as unfit for public discourse.

    The only problem is; I don't think you are capable of demonstrating that there is anything extreme or inflexible in my position such that you are justified in invalidating my values and motivations. Wanting an Oz/Ca style market economy is not extreme, Pancho.

    In which case you will have to settle for challenging them - which I am delighted to tell you that you are free to do. :)

    But here's the problem - you can't accept that is isn't [my] problem - and why would you when this is how you see the other side:
    "I'm not the one offering revolution - the Right are. They're the ones bringing the knife to our throats."
    "What's worse, they've been working at it for generations, ever since social democracy's ascent, for some even since 1789 or 1517. They hate us for our freedoms pretty much."
    "I say they must be eradicated because there is no reason to believe they will ever stop erupting as a permanent fifth column against the species."
    "In any world that averts apocalypse and dystopia, the Right must be eradicated irrevocably."
    Oh sure; not me, or him, but those 'others'! "You are okay" (unspoken - because you basically subscribe to a soft version of my values anyway).

    Chuckles, I think the problem is yours, not mine. ;)




    p.s. with those quotes listed above, i hope i won't find any pious mutterings hereabouts from you on 'violent' political language in the brexit debate...
    Last edited by Furunculus; 09-29-2019 at 20:22.
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  4. #154
    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK Politics Thread

    I wasn't aware that backroom had been quietly rebranded as the home of groupthink
    I'm guessing you havent perused the trump thread any time in the last 2 years.
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  5. #155
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greyblades View Post
    I'm guessing you havent perused the trump thread any time in the last 2 years.
    I have been lucky enough to avoid that thread by and large! :D
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

  6. #156
    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    Spread of Christianity, like the spread of Islam, was imposed on subject populations from the top down by converted local grandees and princes, when it wasn't spread by the sword. The case for 20th-21st century conversion processes is a little better, but it's funded by big money (and, incidentally, many far-right organizations), so appealing to "compassionate argument" sounds euphemistic.

    Indian independence and the American civil rights movement were professedly non-violent, not civil. If you examine their conduct, you would absolutely recognize them as uncivil - many contemporaries did. You make a big mistake invoking these.

    End of slavery especially, that involved bloody war and state coercion. Before that it involved vociferous public declamation, heated debate, and mob politics.

    Your examples contradict your position like 90% of the way.
    No, this is faulty historiography. By the time Constantine I become Emperor and gave the Church his official support Christianity was probably already the largest religion in the Empire, despite centuries of persecution. Only in England, Saxony and the New World was Christianity primarily a "top down" affair. The end of slavery only involved bloody war in the US. In the UK it was ended via a court case which declared the institution "repugnant" and in our Colonies it was finally banned by Parliament after a century of compassionate argument primarily made by non-conformist Christians.

    India and the wider Civil Rights movement achieved their ultimate goals via civil disobedience thereby demonstrating to contemporaries that they were not animals, but fellow humans worthy of civil rights.

    You've got it all wrong, I'm not the one offering revolution - the Right are. They're the ones bringing the knife to our throats. All most on the Left ever wanted was a bit more social spending and responsibility, but the Right have recklessly escalated toward dissolving liberal democracy outright. What's worse, they've been working at it for generations, ever since social democracy's ascent, for some even since 1789 or 1517. They hate us for our freedoms pretty much. As I am not a Christian, I don't offer the other cheek. Well, I personally would go meekly, but that doesn't mean others should.
    This is a Marxist reading of history - you cannot read back the motivations of a group prior to that group's existence. The American "Upper Class" rose out of the Middle Class after having driven out the Upper Class, to which they have no real relation. In particular, the call for low taxes and the insistence that the poor do not need social welfare is a Middle Class view. In any case, the concepts of "right and left" originate in the 18th Century and your concept of the "Left" emerged only in the 19th with the new underclass in the Industrialised cities.

    This is a mere evaluation of the forces acting on our world. Civilizational crisis, if not collapse, is overdetermined; a new equilibrium will come to replace the world we have known. The Right is presently on the attack - one sick fuck has referred to it as a "Warsaw ghetto uprising" - and it's bound to get much much worse before it gets better. I say they must be eradicated because there is no reason to believe they will ever stop erupting as a permanent fifth column against the species. Your demographic will play a critical role, it's just a certainty. The Left can't build enough democratic power on its own. If I may allude to American context, it's very unlikely that either socialism or liberalism can (peacefully) defeat the Ahmaris and Trumps without the compliance and preferably allegiance of the Frenchs.

    This is about much more than elections mind you. I can only hope you will come to see things more clearly as the world environment deteriorates.
    See what more clearly? The need to abandon my principles? It sounds to me like you want to use the climate crisis as a catalyst for revolution, not the other way around.

    No, I think evil people use them as a convenient facade that they don't even respect themselves, and that those who lecture on civility are all too often seeking to impose their advantage through subordination of perceived inferiors. For my part I maintain civility contextually as I judge proper. I perceive my own standards on the Org as generally appropriate, for example, and try to accommodate individual interlocutors' standards as needed.
    Whether you consider them evil or a tool of evil is far less relevant than the fact you don't see them as a force for good.

    At this point I feel it necessary to refer to a pertinent personal example:

    When you contacted me via PM and asked for my views on several topics I gave of my time and answered your questions. When I politely asked you to desist as the conversation was becoming unpleasant you insisted on sending me another wall of text. Was the intention at that point to provoke me into swearing at you and permanently lowering my opinion of you, or was that ultimately not to your advantage? Certainly, I am now disinclined to by sympathetic to your views on a given topic.
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  7. #157
    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK Politics Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    I was talking about a belief that one should not be threatened with violence for one's political beliefs. I was talking about a trust in expert opinion and evidence over faith and rhetoric. I was talking about holding politicians responsible for what they say and do.

    It's not just Brexit, although it's how it has manifested in the UK. It's the Bannonite politics that has Trump as its form in the US, and is attempting to spread in other countries too.
    Well, one should not be threatened with violence for one's beliefs at all - unless those beliefs advocate violence.

    The groundswell against the EU dates back to the passage of the Lisbon Treaty without a Referendum - most people recognise that before that UKIP was a very minor fringe, but it became a viable political force around 2009, which is why Nigel Farage was included in the "Leaders' Debates" for the 2010 election.

    The reality is that most would decry Boris Johnson's actions were it not for the distraction which is the generally shameful conduct of Parliament. Regardless of your political views you must recognise that the real minority view is not Leave or Remain - but compromise.

    The point about expert opinion is often trotted out but the issue with that is that those who voted Leave rejected the expert opinion that they would be poorer not as wrong but as irrelevant. It is the province of experts to provide information, not to tell you how to act on that information in a political context.
    Last edited by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus; 09-30-2019 at 23:13.
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  8. #158

    Default Re: UK Politics Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    I fear you're inventing enemies and slights that don't exist.
    "tendentious - (of speech or writing) expressing or supporting a particular opinion that many other people disagree with"

    I wasn't aware that backroom had been quietly rebranded as the home of groupthink!
    But, to logically connect that statement with the rest of your sentence:
    "...pretending they are beyond challenge because..."

    When have I ever claimed they were beyond challenge?
    I refuse to have them arbitrarily invalidated as unworthy, yes, but that is demanding no more than the common decency I would assign to anyone else: namely refusing the hubris that I have a window into another mans soul, such that I understand the values and motivations that drive their ideology - and consider myself able to pronounce judgement upon it!
    "...But the variance in premises and trade-offs is enormous, and the difference in effect is enormous. Politics trades in lives..."
    Right, so you just said "not least because there is no 'right' answer - just trade offs." This veers close to the long-time (spurious) right-wing caricature that postmodern academics are running around proclaiming that all viewpoints are equally valid.

    (Perhaps another thread can engage with the irony of contemporary conservatism becoming thoroughly post-modern in all the ways they dismissed the contemporary Left as. Somehow the accusation frequently turns out to be a confession.)

    All viewpoints are not equally valid and almost no one thinks so expect when needing to shield themselves from criticism.

    What tradeoffs you think worthwhile or acceptable are a function of your values, and your concrete political behaviors most of all as they substantiate your values.

    I never called you extreme, because the above has nothing to do with how extreme or common (being that extremeness is relative) a person's views are. I would call you reckless because you don't justify your positions with an underlying logic - which together with your other comments implies that, for example, the state of British services regulations is an arbitrary game to you - and callous because I don't think you take into adequate consideration what the full range of real-world consequences of your positions would be. This could be a general evaluation of what I've seen from you (though you don't tend to comment on much beyond Brexit). But on Brexit at last I would call you radical as opposed to extreme, because your tolerance window of Brexit is adjusted to have a greater impact on British life than most of what's in Corbyn's manifestos.

    When you deflect criticisms of premises and motivations by whining that you are not "extreme" or that all views must be respected, you work harder to set yourself at a distance from the subject than to really demonstrate why your views are not stupid or harmful in their own right. It's virtue signalling of the worst sort in not burdening itself with the need to prove any virtue.

    namely refusing the hubris that I have a window into another mans soul, such that I understand the values and motivations that drive their ideology - and consider myself able to pronounce judgement upon it!
    It strikes me that none of us will suffer reservations by engaging in the divining of others' values and motivations in all the normal interactions and situations of life, but suddenly when it comes to a conservative's word on politics, well - surely the God-granted human soul is totally inscrutable to us mere mortals!

    So what we have really concluded is not that I demand protection from having my values and motivations challenged, but that you have deemed my views so far from the 'decent' norm that you should have the privilege of branding them as unfit for public discourse.
    To conclude, this is incorrect on several levels. I take issue with your positions as such, yes, because but I also take issue with how you argue abstractions detached from any description of what it actually means for human beings (without which grounding the subject might as well be a fictional one), and I take issue with the meta-discursive (that is, having to do with the conversation as a conversation) stance of treating values as simultaneously indifferent, respectable, and immune to harsh judgement.

    I'm fine with a discourse on any subject, just drop the assumption that you have started from the merely reasonable point. Brexit, for example, can't both be something you strongly prefer and something you don't think can have a right or wrong answer available for incommensurate commitments - because again, that would make you an unserious person, a pisstaker.

    p.s. with those quotes listed above, i hope i won't find any pious mutterings hereabouts from you on 'violent' political language in the brexit debate...
    Typical deflection, as though pointing out the unremitting class warfare and violence from one side is actually "THE REAL ! ! !" class warfare and violence. *spits*

    But I don't think I've commented on violence with respect to Brexit, and I don't know what your own commitments have to do with the relevance of the subject.

    Just to show Pannonian just how far in the dust the Yanks are leaving him here's the President of the United States accusing an opposition Congressman of treason for investigating him (the accusation itself also historically verging on one more impeachable offense circa Andrew Johnson's time).


    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    I made the correction - thanks.

    My point to Beskar was two-fold.

    1. Socialism claims to be progressive yet in recent memory it has impeded progress more than helped and it recent memory it has been the worst culprit.

    2. Many conservatives tend to see history as cyclical rather than progressive, which is to say humanity has not "progressed" so much as we have moved through phases on civilisation and barbarism.

    At the moment the West is doing badly and it's not inconceivable our society will collapse - you could make the argument that British society already largely has - even pre-Brexit.
    A few problems:

    1. It would be a logical error to assert that if progress does not occur in a given time or place that the concept of progress is not valid.
    2.It seems difficult to deny that some sort of progress occurred under socialist projects. The costs were high, but it is unclear (to be diplomatic) if capitalism can claim lower costs.

    I also want to leave a general note that might become more relevant in any number of threads, that almost all European, modernist ideologies (~1850-1950) maintained a belief in progress and the perfection of the "New Man"* through social-structural or technoscientific advancement. Socialism, communism, liberalism, and fascism held this in common in most variants. Even most conservatives were coming on board (at least in the United States). The only people who really disagreed with "progressive" premises were religious conservatives and the hardcore reactionary monarchist holdouts. That covers most of it.

    *Francis Fukuyama the liberal famously thought that global neoliberalism could (not as a matter of necessity) generate a static society and press into amber the Nietzschean "Last Man" (i.e. the triumph of the liberal internationale as the eschaton of progress). But in the same famous work (I have read a little of it!) Fukuyama the conservative pondered the possibility that the internal contradictions of liberal democracy and the external threat of tyranny would generate a reversion to the "First Man" of Hobbes and Hegel.

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    The point about expert opinion is often trotted out but the issue with that is that those who voted Leave rejected the expert opinion that they would be poorer not as wrong but as irrelevant. It is the province of experts to provide information, not to tell you how to act on that information in a political context.
    Now you're thinking like a leftist!

    I'll come to your big post tomorrow. It's, er, kinda wrong. By the way Phil, some of this I'm finding hard to square away with my recollection of you, around say 2013-2015, being quite gung-ho about initiating Western wars of choice in Ukraine and Syria. Am I missing something, or have you become more intensely Christian?
    Last edited by Montmorency; 09-30-2019 at 04:24.
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  9. #159
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK Politics Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    Just to show Pannonian just how far in the dust the Yanks are leaving him here's the President of the United States accusing an opposition Congressman of treason for investigating him (the accusation itself also historically verging on one more impeachable offense circa Andrew Johnson's time).
    Our lot are threatening the opposition with violence if they don't comply, and according to the Mail, the PM has initiated investigations of the opposition for treason. I think we can agree on one thing though. If any Brit who supports Brexit attempts to lecture Americans on the superiority of the British system and the lacking of the American system, they are lacking self awareness.

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    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    A few problems:

    1. It would be a logical error to assert that if progress does not occur in a given time or place that the concept of progress is not valid.
    2.It seems difficult to deny that some sort of progress occurred under socialist projects. The costs were high, but it is unclear (to be diplomatic) if capitalism can claim lower costs.
    I did not say there is no progress, I said that progress is not linear, and your perception of it as such may simply be a lack of a broad enough historical context.

    I also want to leave a general note that might become more relevant in any number of threads, that almost all European, modernist ideologies (~1850-1950) maintained a belief in progress and the perfection of the "New Man"* through social-structural or technoscientific advancement. Socialism, communism, liberalism, and fascism held this in common in most variants. Even most conservatives were coming on board (at least in the United States). The only people who really disagreed with "progressive" premises were religious conservatives and the hardcore reactionary monarchist holdouts. That covers most of it.

    *Francis Fukuyama the liberal famously thought that global neoliberalism could (not as a matter of necessity) generate a static society and press into amber the Nietzschean "Last Man" (i.e. the triumph of the liberal internationale as the eschaton of progress). But in the same famous work (I have read a little of it!) Fukuyama the conservative pondered the possibility that the internal contradictions of liberal democracy and the external threat of tyranny would generate a reversion to the "First Man" of Hobbes and Hegel.
    As I have been saying for years:

    "Rome is falling - but then Rome is always falling."

    Now you're thinking like a leftist!
    What a wonderful insult.

    I'll come to your big post tomorrow. It's, er, kinda wrong. By the way Phil, some of this I'm finding hard to square away with my recollection of you, around say 2013-2015, being quite gung-ho about initiating Western wars of choice in Ukraine and Syria. Am I missing something, or have you become more intensely Christian?
    Your recollection is imperfect - I have always decried violence - at least since I left my teenage years behind, anyway. However, just because I consider all violence evil does not mean I will not support violence when necessary. One can recognise the evils the Allies committed during World War II such as the bombing of Dresden and the Nuclear bombs but that does not mean they were not necessary under the circumstances.

    In a perfect world we would have convinced Hitler not to massacre 6 million Jews, but we do not live in a perfect world.

    I have made this point many times over the years - I am sure others recall it - if you do not I suggest you re-read my posts more carefully before declaring them simply "wrong". I am an historian, I have read Marx, my criticism of him as an historian is professional. I have studied the spread of early Christianity at considerable length and I can cite specific decisions from specific ecumenical councils. I am not especially well known but my work and my opinions have been well received among my peers.

    Therefore, if you choose to criticise me on these point I suggest you do so only with the upmost seriousness.
    Last edited by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus; 09-30-2019 at 23:32.
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  11. #161

    Default Re: UK Politics Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    I did not say there is no progress, I said that progress is not linear, and your perception of it as such may simply be a lack of a broad enough historical context.
    I didn't say it was linear.

    As I have been saying for years:

    "Rome is falling - but then Rome is always falling."
    Uh, OK, but I was leaving a historical note that I think may be implicated in numerous threads, so that it's here for reference. About the context of the idea of progress. That, for example, it was partly popularized in the United States out of postmillenial Christian social reformist movements as far back as the Second Great Awakening. The modernist era was a different time, and WW2 killed or damaged a lot of ideas about utopia and progress.

    We're living in a postmodern era, ideologies have adapted to their milieu, so sometimes there's a little confusion when comparing ideologies in broad terms across a long period.

    What a wonderful insult.
    It's not an insult; I wasn't joking.

    However, just because I consider all violence evil does not mean I will not support violence when necessary. One can recognise the evils the Allies committed during World War II such as the bombing of Dresden and the Nuclear bombs but that does not mean they were not necessary under the circumstances.
    Those are separate debates to have.

    In a perfect world we would have convinced Hitler not to massacre 6 million Jews, but we do not live in a perfect world.
    I hope I'm not being gauche when I point out that Hitler did more than kill 6 million Jews, and that there were more Germans than just Hitler.

    Therefore, if you choose to criticise me on these point I suggest you do so only with the upmost seriousness.
    With all due respect, you have your specialization. I can't recall a time when I would have presumed to debate historical theology with you.



    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    No, this is faulty historiography. By the time Constantine I become Emperor and gave the Church his official support Christianity was probably already the largest religion in the Empire, despite centuries of persecution. Only in England, Saxony and the New World was Christianity primarily a "top down" affair.
    What was my assertion? The historical spread of Christianity was largely top-down and coercive. Your counterpoint is the Christianization of the Roman Empire, but of course without official support it took multiple centuries to maybe achieve majority status, and after it did gain official support it was absolutely coercive and top-down. Emperors and cardinals didn't offer compassionate argument, or at any rate this wasn't their operating model. Following the Roman period you neglect the millennium of Christian consolidation in Europe, which again was characterized by coercion and the conversion of elites. Thereafter European colonists spread Christianity throughout the world. I hope I don't need to show you that this was, once again, coercive and top-down. Would you really deny any of this?

    The end of slavery only involved bloody war in the US. In the UK it was ended via a court case which declared the institution "repugnant" and in our Colonies it was finally banned by Parliament after a century of compassionate argument primarily made by non-conformist Christians.
    If you'll examine the contents of the public debate on slavery, you would see it was quite vehement to put it mildly. Especially on the part of the working class, who were relatively good about recognizing their class interests with respect to slave economies. A court ruling is not compassionate argument. Royal Navy squadrons are not compassionate argument.

    India and the wider Civil Rights movement achieved their ultimate goals via civil disobedience thereby demonstrating to contemporaries that they were not animals, but fellow humans worthy of civil rights.
    The civil rights movement did not proceed by compassionate argument, it relied on the force of direct action. Compassionate argument may have been involved on an interpersonal basis, as always, in organizing black people and white allies against the apartheid state, but when it came to marching in the streets they weren't there to persuade by speech, nor were their opponents. Same goes with India. Gandhi didn't want to persuade the British of Indian dignity, he wanted to inflict economic pain and political discomfort on the British ruling class.

    And, this may be hard for you to hear, but the peaceful civil disobedience movements were girded by the threat of mass violence against the authorities. In India, the imperial government preferred to deal with the non-violent movement rather than risk enflaming armed resistance. Likewise in the American city halls, the Congress and White House, white politicians preferred to seek accommodations with the civil rights movement not because they often believed in the righteousness of its cause, or because they felt voters would reward them, but because they flinched at the prospect of mobs of rioting blacks burning down the cities. Yes indeed, peaceful resistance was not the only game in town. These are historical facts. My own suspicion is that, without a big stick, speaking loudly is more often than not liable to get you killed and little more. A "good cop, bad cop" analogy comes to mind.

    So yeah, you remain basically wrong in no small way.

    This is a Marxist reading of history - you cannot read back the motivations of a group prior to that group's existence.
    Hoo boy. Are you sure you've read Marx? A lot of conservatives claim to have read Marx, but demonstrate little evidence of reading. What I wrote has nothing to do with Marx in fact, and I'm not sure how you drew the connection. What do you mean by "read back the motivations of a group" and what do you mean by "prior to that group's existence?"


    The American "Upper Class" rose out of the Middle Class after having driven out the Upper Class, to which they have no real relation. In particular, the call for low taxes and the insistence that the poor do not need social welfare is a Middle Class view. In any case, the concepts of "right and left" originate in the 18th Century and your concept of the "Left" emerged only in the 19th with the new underclass in the Industrialised cities.
    W-what???

    ???

    I listed a few observations of political and cultural features of the contemporary Right informed by prolonged, broad and direct (admittedly US-centric) experience bolstered by reading 20th century history, and I don't know what it is you think you're talking about here.

    See what more clearly? The need to abandon my principles? It sounds to me like you want to use the climate crisis as a catalyst for revolution, not the other way around.
    Catalyst for revolution? There is a revolution at hand whether you like it or not. I never asked for one, I'm no man for trying times.

    Our economic, social, and political orders consistently fail to respond to the converging existential catastrophes of our time. Revanchist authoritarianism and fascism sweep the planet as democratic consciousness even among the allegedly "developed" countries takes two steps back for every step forward, with relatively few loci of resilience. Either we go under as a species, or we transition to a ruined and fragmented world dominated by fascists, ancaps and warlords in governmental form. Or - and stay with me here Phil - we organize for cooperative democracy on an unprecedented level and redistribute the world's bounty in an equitable and sustainable way. Those are the possibilities, and all of them are revolutionary from the contemporary perspective. Hence the expression "socialism or barbarism." What I'd like you to recognize sooner rather than later is that whatever you think of one, it's always that or the other.

    Would you agree that if one's principles can't answer to the situation at hand, then those principles are or have become worthless and and one ought to discover new ones? At a minimum maintain an awareness that your principles MIGHT not measure up to what is required.

    Whether you consider them evil or a tool of evil is far less relevant than the fact you don't see them as a force for good.

    At this point I feel it necessary to refer to a pertinent personal example:

    When you contacted me via PM and asked for my views on several topics I gave of my time and answered your questions. When I politely asked you to desist as the conversation was becoming unpleasant you insisted on sending me another wall of text. Was the intention at that point to provoke me into swearing at you and permanently lowering my opinion of you, or was that ultimately not to your advantage? Certainly, I am now disinclined to by sympathetic to your views on a given topic.
    Christ's sake Phil, I know you are a very finicky person but that wall was not for you to respond to (should you want to that's a different story), it was a clarification for you to reflect on at the time and disposition of your choosing. A record of my thoughts so that I wouldn't have to recreate them piecemeal in the future. Would it have helped to relay it at a later date? Never to express what I needed you to recognize would have been intolerable because it would have signified a wasted outpouring of breath. For someone so adamant that others should strive to understand your point of view it stung that you refused to acknowledge my explicit attempt to explain to you how I was doing just that. I have a point of view too.

    I imagined that you would digest it at your own discretion and perhaps your updated awareness would manifest in future interactions, but to discover that up to now your only takeaway has been as an opportunity to self-righteously shit all over my sincere outpouring - disappoints me.


    ###

    As an example of right wing perniciousness, for all my life and with increasing intensity elements of the Right, diplomatically described as just beneath the mainstream (with tens of millions of users or readers or viewers or listeners), have demanded, threatened, or predicted civil war against their "illegitimate" liberal enemy. You can find hundreds of examples of reactionary bloodlust and apocalyptic mania if you want to get down and dirty with Google. I was literally driven to tears over one example from the Federalist, which I posted about here a year ago.

    So far so good and normal (?).

    Trump retweeted one such [EDIT: Important to note this was a Fox News guest] in connection to the possibility of his removal from office, after he had already invoked investigating a ranking Democratic Congressman for treason. The mainstay of all robust republican government being of course the impunity of the executive to plunder and to persecute...

    Then the Twitter account of one of the largest and most notorious right-wing militia organizations, the Oath Keepers, which has already threatened civil war directly to Democratic politicians such as California's governor and has been vocally obsessed with civil war since at least the Obama years, responded with the following:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    This whole thread is important to read. The term “civil war” is increasingly on people’s tongue. And not just “cold civil war” - full-blown “hot” civil war. Fact is patriots consider the left to be domestic enemies of the Constitution bent on the destruction of the Republic...

    And we consider all that they are doing to impeach the President to be be illegitimate pretexts to simply undo the 2016 election results that they don’t like. They expected to win and see Trump as an interloper and impediment to their “rightful” power. @StewartRhodesOK


    Did you know that before 1869 locomotives had no general brakes and each car had to be individually levered to a halt? Trains used to be the #1 cause of violent death before the automobile, you know! But the thing about slow-moving train wrecks is that you can see them coming. Many saw this one coming since 2016.

    I never heard of this band before.
    Last edited by Montmorency; 10-01-2019 at 05:30.
    Vitiate Man.

    History repeats the old conceits
    The glib replies, the same defeats


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



  12. #162
    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK Politics Thread

    You're doing that thing again where you write four times as much as your interlocutor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    I didn't say it was linear.
    The point was originally meant for Beskar in any case. Despite which, you seem to subscribe to the same concept of progress and human improvement - I do not.

    Uh, OK, but I was leaving a historical note that I think may be implicated in numerous threads, so that it's here for reference. About the context of the idea of progress. That, for example, it was partly popularized in the United States out of postmillenial Christian social reformist movements as far back as the Second Great Awakening. The modernist era was a different time, and WW2 killed or damaged a lot of ideas about utopia and progress.

    We're living in a postmodern era, ideologies have adapted to their milieu, so sometimes there's a little confusion when comparing ideologies in broad terms across a long period.
    Well, I'm not a post-modernist. Besides, my historical note is pithier.

    It's not an insult; I wasn't joking.
    If you weren't joking it's definitely an insult. I disdain any connection to someone else's conception of a political ideology or stance.

    Those are separate debates to have.
    The Fall of Man isn't a concept you are going to be able to debunk to anyone's satisfaction but your own.

    I hope I'm not being gauche when I point out that Hitler did more than kill 6 million Jews, and that there were more Germans than just Hitler.
    I rather think you are because you should know my point was about the individual - no the collective. I picked Hitler because everyone hates Hitler.

    With all due respect, you have your specialization. I can't recall a time when I would have presumed to debate historical theology with you.
    My specialisation is not theology, and you presume to lecture me on my reading of historical processes.

    What was my assertion? The historical spread of Christianity was largely top-down and coercive. Your counterpoint is the Christianization of the Roman Empire, but of course without official support it took multiple centuries to maybe achieve majority status, and after it did gain official support it was absolutely coercive and top-down. Emperors and cardinals didn't offer compassionate argument, or at any rate this wasn't their operating model. Following the Roman period you neglect the millennium of Christian consolidation in Europe, which again was characterized by coercion and the conversion of elites. Thereafter European colonists spread Christianity throughout the world. I hope I don't need to show you that this was, once again, coercive and top-down. Would you really deny any of this?
    I'd deny this narrative is anything other than out of date as a reading of history. Christianity was spread principally by women and slaves before it was adopted by Constantine I, he was converted by his sister and his secretary - who was a slave as I recall. It was not until Theodosius the Great in the 370's that Nicene Christianity became the official Imperial Church as we call it. Even so, Pagans continued to enjoy full rights as citizens and private religious freedom until Justinian explicitly linked Christianity with citizenship (thereby disenfranchising Jews too).

    Meanwhile, in the West the Franks and Visigoths gradually abandoned the Arian Christianity of forefathers for the Nicene Christianity of their subjects - bottom up. Only in England did the elite convert first, followed by their subjects - even there the women tended to convert first which is still effectively "bottom up".

    If you want real "coercion" you need to go as far forward as Charlemagne, after the Arab Conquests. From then onward Christianity does not really "spread" until the Renaissance - excepting the Baltic Crusades. That is not to say that after Charlemagne there was not increasing persecution of non-conformists like Cathars and later Waldensians and Lollards. The Crusades in the Middle East aren't really relevant here, btw, because there's little evidence of the Crusader States making any effort to enforce religious conformity.

    If you'll examine the contents of the public debate on slavery, you would see it was quite vehement to put it mildly. Especially on the part of the working class, who were relatively good about recognizing their class interests with respect to slave economies. A court ruling is not compassionate argument. Royal Navy squadrons are not compassionate argument.
    Do you know to which court ruling I refer?

    The Royal Navy was not used to "end slavery" so much as it was used to prevent slave trading within British territories after we had banned it.

    The civil rights movement did not proceed by compassionate argument, it relied on the force of direct action. Compassionate argument may have been involved on an interpersonal basis, as always, in organizing black people and white allies against the apartheid state, but when it came to marching in the streets they weren't there to persuade by speech, nor were their opponents. Same goes with India. Gandhi didn't want to persuade the British of Indian dignity, he wanted to inflict economic pain and political discomfort on the British ruling class.

    And, this may be hard for you to hear, but the peaceful civil disobedience movements were girded by the threat of mass violence against the authorities. In India, the imperial government preferred to deal with the non-violent movement rather than risk enflaming armed resistance. Likewise in the American city halls, the Congress and White House, white politicians preferred to seek accommodations with the civil rights movement not because they often believed in the righteousness of its cause, or because they felt voters would reward them, but because they flinched at the prospect of mobs of rioting blacks burning down the cities. Yes indeed, peaceful resistance was not the only game in town. These are historical facts. My own suspicion is that, without a big stick, speaking loudly is more often than not liable to get you killed and little more. A "good cop, bad cop" analogy comes to mind.

    So yeah, you remain basically wrong in no small way.
    If this were true then independence would have come sooner for India. You have been describing a war for annihilation, no quarter, that it not "civil", or civilised.

    Hoo boy. Are you sure you've read Marx? A lot of conservatives claim to have read Marx, but demonstrate little evidence of reading. What I wrote has nothing to do with Marx in fact, and I'm not sure how you drew the connection. What do you mean by "read back the motivations of a group" and what do you mean by "prior to that group's existence?"
    I have read the Communist Manifesto several times as it is meant to be read, in one sitting - I read Marx against his close contemporary Charles Dickens, specifically Dickens' Bleak House which was published a few years later.

    I also read some of Marx's historiography - in which he equates the class-struggle of 19th Century Britain (where he habitually resided) with what he perceived as the "struggle" of the medieval serf against his lord and the "struggle" of the Journeyman Craftsman against the Guild. The problem is that Marx essentially invented these "struggles" to fit his narrative of perpetual class-war. The reality is that the Communist Manifesto is a product of specific 19th Century circumstances that pertain to specific places and times - and most specifically to Industrial Britain and its "Dark Satanic Mills".

    You are making the same error as Marx is trying to cast the current conflict between Right and Left as going back centuries - it doesn't - it goes back less than 150 years, prior to that what was considered the "Left" is part of what you now consider the "Right".

    W-what???

    ???

    I listed a few observations of political and cultural features of the contemporary Right informed by prolonged, broad and direct (admittedly US-centric) experience bolstered by reading 20th century history, and I don't know what it is you think you're talking about here.
    You argued some have been attacking Socialist values as far back as 1517 or even 1789 - the forces at play now did not exist then. Hence, there is no continuity of conflict. It's like arguing Christianity and Islam have been "At war for two millennia" just because Christianity has a few left-overs from Roman society and modern Iranian are Muslims.

    As I said, this is an essentially Marxist reading of history.

    Catalyst for revolution? There is a revolution at hand whether you like it or not. I never asked for one, I'm no man for trying times.

    Our economic, social, and political orders consistently fail to respond to the converging existential catastrophes of our time. Revanchist authoritarianism and fascism sweep the planet as democratic consciousness even among the allegedly "developed" countries takes two steps back for every step forward, with relatively few loci of resilience. Either we go under as a species, or we transition to a ruined and fragmented world dominated by fascists, ancaps and warlords in governmental form. Or - and stay with me here Phil - we organize for cooperative democracy on an unprecedented level and redistribute the world's bounty in an equitable and sustainable way. Those are the possibilities, and all of them are revolutionary from the contemporary perspective. Hence the expression "socialism or barbarism." What I'd like you to recognize sooner rather than later is that whatever you think of one, it's always that or the other.
    Western societies have been in decline since the end of World War II, Americans have been slower to recognise this than others because America had a late peak after WW II but your country has been in decline ever since you bailed out of the Vietnam War.

    Democracy as you understand it has only ever been valued in Northern Europe and the Anglo-sphere, the political and social landscape of the rest of the World, including Southern Europe, has always made it a poor fit. That is not to say these regions of the world are incapable of good government but the reality is the British and Americans invented "Liberal Democracy" for themselves, not others.

    I remind you that, at present, the revolution is being televised and everything looks much bigger, scarier and more immediate on TV.

    Would you agree that if one's principles can't answer to the situation at hand, then those principles are or have become worthless and and one ought to discover new ones? At a minimum maintain an awareness that your principles MIGHT not measure up to what is required.
    If you think values like kindness, compassion, charity, honesty and concern for others before yourself are no longer applicable I don't know what to tell you.

    Christ's sake Phil, I know you are a very finicky person but that wall was not for you to respond to (should you want to that's a different story), it was a clarification for you to reflect on at the time and disposition of your choosing. A record of my thoughts so that I wouldn't have to recreate them piecemeal in the future. Would it have helped to relay it at a later date? Never to express what I needed you to recognize would have been intolerable because it would have signified a wasted outpouring of breath. For someone so adamant that others should strive to understand your point of view it stung that you refused to acknowledge my explicit attempt to explain to you how I was doing just that. I have a point of view too.

    I imagined that you would digest it at your own discretion and perhaps your updated awareness would manifest in future interactions, but to discover that up to now your only takeaway has been as an opportunity to self-righteously shit all over my sincere outpouring - disappoints me.
    You should have taken seriously my polite request to desist, I would not have made it if I had any further wish to engage with your attempts to undermine my world view. In your attempt to persuade me you attacked my character and my intellectual integrity. Being a fairly conventional fellow I feel obliged to respond to someone when they write to me, which is why I responded to you initially, I enjoyed no part of our exchange which I would have thought was obvious from the tone of my replies.

    If you had wanted something for me to reflect upon you might have suggested a good book, instead of another confrontational private message that obligated me to respond.

    As an example of right wing perniciousness, for all my life and with increasing intensity elements of the Right, diplomatically described as just beneath the mainstream (with tens of millions of users or readers or viewers or listeners), have demanded, threatened, or predicted civil war against their "illegitimate" liberal enemy. You can find hundreds of examples of reactionary bloodlust and apocalyptic mania if you want to get down and dirty with Google. I was literally driven to tears over one example from the Federalist, which I posted about here a year ago.

    So far so good and normal (?).

    Trump retweeted one such [EDIT: Important to note this was a Fox News guest] in connection to the possibility of his removal from office, after he had already invoked investigating a ranking Democratic Congressman for treason. The mainstay of all robust republican government being of course the impunity of the executive to plunder and to persecute...

    Then the Twitter account of one of the largest and most notorious right-wing militia organizations, the Oath Keepers, which has already threatened civil war directly to Democratic politicians such as California's governor and has been vocally obsessed with civil war since at least the Obama years, responded with the following:



    Did you know that before 1869 locomotives had no general brakes and each car had to be individually levered to a halt? Trains used to be the #1 cause of violent death before the automobile, you know! But the thing about slow-moving train wrecks is that you can see them coming. Many saw this one coming since 2016.

    I never heard of this band before.
    About nine years ago I was in a pub talking to a friendly Irishman when he started saying how he wanted to kill then-Prime Minister David Cameron. Mr Cameron had not at that point been in office very long and had not, so far as I was aware, done anything much to justify such a sentiment. Nonetheless, this only slightly tipsy Irishman was all for getting a gun and shooting him dead.

    People are terrible and our modern society rewards them - reddit is a fine example of this fact, or rather a terrible example.

    You do not oppose such people by adopting their rhetoric, you oppose such people via reasoned argument, thereby demonstrating to those watching the weakness of their position and their moral character.
    Last edited by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus; 10-01-2019 at 17:07.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."

    [IMG]https://img197.imageshack.us/img197/4917/logoromans23pd.jpg[/IMG]

  13. #163

    Default Re: UK Politics Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    You're doing that thing again where you write four times as much as your interlocutor.
    I checked and it's about twice as long as the posts I was replying to. Are we writing under some editorial constraint? Wouldn't you think I was making light of you if I were terse?

    The point was originally meant for Beskar in any case. Despite which, you seem to subscribe to the same concept of progress and human improvement - I do not.
    I maintain that young people today are improved over their antecedents in many domains, and not any worse in most of the rest. And it's evident throughout the developed world. That demands explanation at a minimum.

    If you weren't joking it's definitely an insult. I disdain any connection to someone else's conception of a political ideology or stance.
    The way you say that implies you think you have zero ideas in common with any person in general. Aren't you curious how I could make that comment? Whither civility? (To cut to the chase, leftists also often insist that expert opinion should inform the popular will and augment its implementation, not circumscribe them.)

    The Fall of Man isn't a concept you are going to be able to debunk to anyone's satisfaction but your own.
    The Fall of Man justifies violence whenever you personally think it is justified? I was merely making the obvious point that when violence is justified, including specific cases, is a matter for debate. (Don't take that as an obligation.)

    I rather think you are because you should know my point was about the individual - no the collective. I picked Hitler because everyone hates Hitler.
    That's my point - don't fall into Great Man thinking.

    My specialisation is not theology, and you presume to lecture me on my reading of historical processes.
    Well, OK, Medieval Studies, or what was it? I do presume to disagree with you on select matters, yes - that seems unavoidable to me.

    I'd deny this narrative is anything other than out of date as a reading of history.

    Wow, there's is a significant disagreement over the facts. In your capacity as a scholar who would have command of the relevant literature I appeal that you refer to me some sources that contradict the following. Here is my understanding of the situation in late antiquity:

    The story of women and slaves driving the spread of Christianity is the outdated historiography; it appealed to a broad cross-section of society throughout its early existence. Christianity was not a clandestine or marginal religion in the 3rd century, churches owned a lot of property. Roman Christian literature and organization was heavily focused on identifying and suppressing heresies and paganism. Christians held Roman public offices, which naturally were used for all kinds of coercion - but this included the religious sort. The idea that powerful Christian sects and individuals just became passive victims of pagan oppression, but when officially licensed treated pagans with tolerance is wrong. Constantine himself persecuted pagans and tried to enforce his doctrinal Christianity. When Christianity is the state religion of the land, it should be unsurprising that remaining pagan imposes severe limitations to advancement of all sorts at best, and that conversion is incentivized. State persecution of heretics defined the Empire all the way through the fall of the West. I don't know what the successor Germanic kingdoms were doing, but I doubt they were very accommodating.

    As for Medieval elite conversion events, I'm thinking of Franks and other mainland Germanic tribes, Nordic/Viking conversions, and Russia and most of Eastern Europe. All involved missionaries converting the aristocracy. Christianity beyond Europe, such as the Caucasus or Axum, spread by elite conversion and imposition as well.

    At least you won't go so far as to contest my account of colonial Christianization.

    Do you know to which court ruling I refer?

    The Royal Navy was not used to "end slavery" so much as it was used to prevent slave trading within British territories after we had banned it.
    Where are you going with this?

    Security and military resources are enlisted in the enforcement of policy, such as that against slavery, to this day. Slavery doesn't just end when the government says it does, you need enforcement. Without enforcement in government there is only voluntary cooperation and civic education, which can be worked out in domains like traffic law compliance and information sharing to some extent, but slavers are notoriously non-altruistic or ethical.

    If this were true then independence would have come sooner for India.
    Non-sequitur.

    You have been describing a war for annihilation, no quarter, that it not "civil", or civilised.
    No?

    You are making the same error as Marx is trying to cast the current conflict between Right and Left as going back centuries - it doesn't - it goes back less than 150 years, prior to that what was considered the "Left" is part of what you now consider the "Right".

    You argued some have been attacking Socialist values as far back as 1517 or even 1789 - the forces at play now did not exist then. Hence, there is no continuity of conflict. It's like arguing Christianity and Islam have been "At war for two millennia" just because Christianity has a few left-overs from Roman society and modern Iranian are Muslims.

    As I said, this is an essentially Marxist reading of history.
    I think I see the misunderstanding. It has nothing to do with Marx. When I mentioned 1789 and 1517, you thought I was saying there has been a continuous organized conflict between monolithic "Left and Right" since those times. I was only using those years to signify the ongoing desire among the Pre-modernist Right to overturn the social and political transformations of the French Revolution and (at least the secular aspects) of the Protestant Reformation.

    But of course these movements do have continuity with past forms of conservatism and reaction. To reflect it against a little personal context, years ago I had a sort of simplistic understanding of historical transitions. I just assumed things like, after WW1 no one was REALLY a monarchist anymore, after WW2 no one was REALLY a fascist anymore, after the collapse of the USSR no one was REALLY a socialist anymore... History and "progress" seemed much more clean-cut to me. To the point that as a child I imagined that after the Arab conquest of Egypt there were no more "original" Egyptians left, that after the Turkish migrations to Anatolia there were no more Anatolians anymore - just "Turks."

    EDIT: To relate to earlier in the post, at some point I had even thought there was a sharp demarcation in Roman history where most people were pagan, then - boom, everyone's Christian. But there were pagans in high places writing bitter accounts even into the 6th century after all.

    Eventually I realized the fuzziness of historical (and geographical) boundaries and the continuity of peoples, places, and ideas.

    As Luke Skywalker says in The Last Jedi, "No one's ever really gone."

    I do like this Internet-famous comment on the eternal conservative though, very apt if overly reductive.

    Western societies have been in decline since the end of World War II, Americans have been slower to recognise this than others because America had a late peak after WW II but your country has been in decline ever since you bailed out of the Vietnam War.
    How do you define decline? I would probably disagree, barring some cunning semantic device.

    Democracy as you understand it has only ever been valued in Northern Europe and the Anglo-sphere, the political and social landscape of the rest of the World, including Southern Europe, has always made it a poor fit. That is not to say these regions of the world are incapable of good government but the reality is the British and Americans invented "Liberal Democracy" for themselves, not others.
    Democracy as I understand it has never been practiced in Europe or America on a large scale. Liberal democracy still ultimately veers into oligarchy. Real democracy is horizontal power (though still not necessarily "direct" in governmental form).

    If you think values like kindness, compassion, charity, honesty and concern for others before yourself are no longer applicable I don't know what to tell you.
    You know that's not what I'm saying and you know your anodyne list doesn't enumerate the principles that go into how society should be ordered, which is what's germane.

    Here is an example in the Labour Party of principles failing their test that you should read (or pure stubbornness without principles, but whatever). The failure of Labour's and Momentum's principles are 'merely' in the electoral realm of increasing the Party's advantage. The corollary is that they remain distant from their other-principled goals of improving the common weal. The principles that most need development are the ones conducive to saving the world pretty much. Whatever those are.

    You should have taken seriously my polite request to desist, I would not have made it if I had any further wish to engage with your attempts to undermine my world view. In your attempt to persuade me you attacked my character and my intellectual integrity. Being a fairly conventional fellow I feel obliged to respond to someone when they write to me, which is why I responded to you initially, I enjoyed no part of our exchange which I would have thought was obvious from the tone of my replies.

    If you had wanted something for me to reflect upon you might have suggested a good book, instead of another confrontational private message that obligated me to respond.
    I desisted from argument but not from explanation. The challenge is that you're not accepting the distinction.

    From my perspective, it is important to indicate flaws in the thought process; there's no right to have them go unsaid, which is furthermore unhealthy.

    Didn't I topline in the last message that you weren't obligated to restart discussion?

    How about a compromise: I'm too insensitive and you're too sensitive. Ultimately if I couldn't come up with an approach that didn't upset you I'm a failure.

    About nine years ago I was in a pub talking to a friendly Irishman when he started saying how he wanted to kill then-Prime Minister David Cameron. Mr Cameron had not at that point been in office very long and had not, so far as I was aware, done anything much to justify such a sentiment. Nonetheless, this only slightly tipsy Irishman was all for getting a gun and shooting him dead.

    People are terrible and our modern society rewards them - reddit is a fine example of this fact, or rather a terrible example.
    So did he want to kill him because he hated English politicians as an Irishman? If not, I've heard of a "liberal" who decided Aryans are good and therefore Jews are bad because of something (?) she read on Wikipedia. Random maniacs are one thing; massive cultural ecosystems with millions of members, sophisticated messaging, and representation at all levels of political, social, and economic power - obviously a different ballpark. The fish always rots from the head down when it comes to violence and tyranny. Don't focus on individuals.

    You do not oppose such people by adopting their rhetoric
    I'm not calling for adopting their rhetoric, but for mass recognition of the implications and extant effects of their ideology and their long-consistent and escalating practices. In fact, I'm certain that right-wing rhetorical styles are inherently ineffective on and repugnant to people on the Left.

    you oppose such people via reasoned argument, thereby demonstrating to those watching the weakness of their position and their moral character.
    It just doesn't work that way and never has. What we should be trying to persuade people of is the immediate mortal threat of global Reaction, like a Thunberg for fascism. Merely trying to confront their arguments directly is of little use as a strategy toward building power because the lies and the money behind them are unlimited and the public does not primarily respond to reasoned argument in the first place, which as a fan of Classical philosophy you should acknowledge. The Right certainly haven't built power through any form of reasoned argumentation (lol).

    What CAN be done - merely winning a few elections is not adequate to the scale of the problem - I don't know. Psychology and education are a definitive barrier here, because there really is a consistent psychological profile to the sort of people who are willing to destroy for narrow gain or who are willing to be easily manipulated. You only need a third to passively watch another third eliminate the last third and whatnot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    You're all allowed to laugh at our political meltdown and we don't complain - the least you can do is reciprocate the indulgence.
    Brits are free to comment on American politics, but we prefer they come with the mindset that words and ideas mean something and can be related to facts or knowledge - rather than being mere weapons to annoy or to destroy.
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  14. #164
    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    I checked and it's about twice as long as the posts I was replying to. Are we writing under some editorial constraint? Wouldn't you think I was making light of you if I were terse?
    I tend to strive for a 1:1 ratio - that way it doesn't escalate to someone spending three hours and two cups of coffee to reply.

    I maintain that young people today are improved over their antecedents in many domains, and not any worse in most of the rest. And it's evident throughout the developed world. That demands explanation at a minimum.
    I disagree, the majority of them didn't vote in the referendum and then complained their parents were "selfish" for wanting to leave the EU. That's evidence of stupidity and ingratitude, not to mention cynicism. They complain about the environment by tweeting from the iPhones.

    The way you say that implies you think you have zero ideas in common with any person in general. Aren't you curious how I could make that comment? Whither civility? (To cut to the chase, leftists also often insist that expert opinion should inform the popular will and augment its implementation, not circumscribe them.)
    I consider political ideologies dangerous when people propose to put them into practice. Ideaological systems should be confined to universities and not let out.

    The Fall of Man justifies violence whenever you personally think it is justified? I was merely making the obvious point that when violence is justified, including specific cases, is a matter for debate. (Don't take that as an obligation.)
    No, violence is never "justified", the Fall of Man explains the contradiction of why humans sometimes find it necessary to act in unjust ways. It's because we're basically bad at being people.

    That's my point - don't fall into Great Man thinking.
    Then I respectfully submit that your point was redundant because no Backroomer now posting is so very foolish. After a decade I take it as read that you are not a stupid man.

    Well, OK, Medieval Studies, or what was it? I do presume to disagree with you on select matters, yes - that seems unavoidable to me.
    Fine, you presume to debate with me about my expert subject and subjects connected to it - previous denials were merely a rhetorical device.

    Wow, there's is a significant disagreement over the facts. In your capacity as a scholar who would have command of the relevant literature I appeal that you refer to me some sources that contradict the following. Here is my understanding of the situation in late antiquity:
    You don't say.

    The story of women and slaves driving the spread of Christianity is the outdated historiography; it appealed to a broad cross-section of society throughout its early existence.
    Whilst this is true early pogroms initiated under Nero and Domitian severely impeded its spread among the Senatorial class whilst not really doing anything to impede its spread among the underclass. Further, early Christian Churches (such as one found a few years ago in Israel) show that women were highly active in funding the early Church. Finally, you have to consider that men, particularly men who were citizens, were also being evangelised by other cults such as that of Mithras which explicitly excluded women.

    Christianity was not a clandestine or marginal religion in the 3rd century, churches owned a lot of property.
    Less true by the 4th Century because Diocletian had seized a lot of it. Also, ownership of "property" in this period does not equate to "church building". Essentially, Christianity in this period was similar to modern cults, it was socially and politically a fringe element - despite which is was probably the largest cult by the time of Constantine's conversion. Constantine was nonethless the first Emperor to start building or converting Churches - creating edifices to the Christian faith.

    Roman Christian literature and organization was heavily focused on identifying and suppressing heresies and paganism.
    Early Christians conducted vehement debates but the hunting of "heresy" is something that only begins after the Council of Nicaea when Constantine forces the Bishops to agree basic doctrines. In the following decades Eusobius writes his Ecclesiastical History and then Epiphanius writes the Panarion, which is the first work to catalogue and describe heresies from an Orthodox perspective - at the end of the 4th Century, under Theodosius I.

    Christians held Roman public offices, which naturally were used for all kinds of coercion - but this included the religious sort.
    In the 3rd Century, under Diocletian, this was strictly illegal. Prior to that it would have been technically illegal in most cases because Roman officers would have needed to observe Roman religious rituals. So any Christians would have been clandestine or at best tolerated as irregular.

    The idea that powerful Christian sects and individuals just became passive victims of pagan oppression, but when officially licensed treated pagans with tolerance is wrong.
    I never said all Christians were pacifists - I said that prior to Constantine I Christianity did not spread by coercion. Picking at me for some example you can find is a bit pretty - it's like finding a Catholic prist who fathered a child and arguing that because of this bad apple Catholic priests generally ignore the rule about celibacy. Once Constantine became Emperor things did change - as I recall some Christian sects systematically targeted Mithraists. That being said, the Empire itself remainded largely religiously pluralistic.

    Constantine himself persecuted pagans and tried to enforce his doctrinal Christianity.
    I'll require a citation if you're going to argue he "persecuted" non-Christians. Certainly, he increasingly promoted Christianity - it is why he went to war with his more religiously pluralistic brother-in-law (who may also actually have been a closet Christian).

    When Christianity is the state religion of the land, it should be unsurprising that remaining pagan imposes severe limitations to advancement of all sorts at best, and that conversion is incentivized. State persecution of heretics defined the Empire all the way through the fall of the West. I don't know what the successor Germanic kingdoms were doing, but I doubt they were very accommodating.
    Arrian Christianity and Nicene Christianity largely co-existed until the Fall of the West. Many Romano-German officers were Arrian (though probably not Flavius Stilicho). After he Conquered Italy Theoderic the great was generally tollerant of Nicene Christians, though he became less so over the years as he increasingly clashed with the senate - ultimately leading him to imprison Boethius and abolish the position of Consul. It was not until the 4th century that Stilicho closed the temple of the Vestal Virgins and and burned the Sibylline Books - prior to that restrictions of Pagans were quite light.

    In fact, the concept of persecuting other Christians generally is more a late-medieval thing.

    As for Medieval elite conversion events, I'm thinking of Franks and other mainland Germanic tribes, Nordic/Viking conversions, and Russia and most of Eastern Europe. All involved missionaries converting the aristocracy. Christianity beyond Europe, such as the Caucasus or Axum, spread by elite conversion and imposition as well.
    The Russ and Norse were converted after Charlemagne, which was my cut-off point for the early spread of Christianity. The Franks were already largely Christian by the time Clovis became Catholic... at the insistence of his wife. Given that my point really pertains to the period before Constantine I officially embraced Christianity I think you're picking only small holes, at best.

    At least you won't go so far as to contest my account of colonial Christianization.
    Again - not an idiot. If you want to contest this point further, that Early Christianity was spread with fire and the Sword like early Islam you'll have to start a new thread - we've dragged this one far enough off topic.

    Where are you going with this?

    Security and military resources are enlisted in the enforcement of policy, such as that against slavery, to this day. Slavery doesn't just end when the government says it does, you need enforcement. Without enforcement in government there is only voluntary cooperation and civic education, which can be worked out in domains like traffic law compliance and information sharing to some extent, but slavers are notoriously non-altruistic or ethical.
    I'm going with, "I know this history better than you do."

    Non-sequitur.
    If you say so - according to Indian historiography they had multiple "Wars of Independence" that went exactly nowhere until Ghandi went on hunger strike.

    No?
    Last week you wanted to utterly destroy the Right, yes?

    I think I see the misunderstanding. It has nothing to do with Marx. When I mentioned 1789 and 1517, you thought I was saying there has been a continuous organized conflict between monolithic "Left and Right" since those times. I was only using those years to signify the ongoing desire among the Pre-modernist Right to overturn the social and political transformations of the French Revolution and (at least the secular aspects) of the Protestant Reformation.
    I'm sorry, but this really is Marxist historiography. There is not "pre-Modernist Right". The concept does not exist, trying to impose it is grossly anachronistic. In the case of the Protestants it's they who are the reactionary, intolerant, regressive element.

    But of course these movements do have continuity with past forms of conservatism and reaction. To reflect it against a little personal context, years ago I had a sort of simplistic understanding of historical transitions. I just assumed things like, after WW1 no one was REALLY a monarchist anymore, after WW2 no one was REALLY a fascist anymore, after the collapse of the USSR no one was REALLY a socialist anymore... History and "progress" seemed much more clean-cut to me. To the point that as a child I imagined that after the Arab conquest of Egypt there were no more "original" Egyptians left, that after the Turkish migrations to Anatolia there were no more Anatolians anymore - just "Turks."

    EDIT: To relate to earlier in the post, at some point I had even thought there was a sharp demarcation in Roman history where most people were pagan, then - boom, everyone's Christian. But there were pagans in high places writing bitter accounts even into the 6th century after all.

    Eventually I realized the fuzziness of historical (and geographical) boundaries and the continuity of peoples, places, and ideas.

    As Luke Skywalker says in The Last Jedi, "No one's ever really gone."

    I do like this Internet-famous comment on the eternal conservative though, very apt if overly reductive.
    Again, progressive vs conservative is a modern concept. Applying this to history before it's articulated is a gross distortion.

    How do you define decline? I would probably disagree, barring some cunning semantic device.
    All measures, 100 years ago we had an unassailable advantage in science, technology, economic wealth and military power

    Democracy as I understand it has never been practiced in Europe or America on a large scale. Liberal democracy still ultimately veers into oligarchy. Real democracy is horizontal power (though still not necessarily "direct" in governmental form).
    OK - you don't believe in practical government - you prefer ideals - noted.

    You know that's not what I'm saying and you know your anodyne list doesn't enumerate the principles that go into how society should be ordered, which is what's germane.

    Here is an example in the Labour Party of principles failing their test that you should read (or pure stubbornness without principles, but whatever). The failure of Labour's and Momentum's principles are 'merely' in the electoral realm of increasing the Party's advantage. The corollary is that they remain distant from their other-principled goals of improving the common weal. The principles that most need development are the ones conducive to saving the world pretty much. Whatever those are.
    I feel like you're attacking my principles, though, so those are my principles. If you struggle to accept that it's because you're trying to fit me into an American Right-Wing Christian pigeon hole.

    Frankly, I think you're doing the same to Furunculus - rather than engaging us and trying to understand our positions you just filter what we say through your preconceptions as a way to understand it.

    Consider - most Brits, including myself, would consider that the Average American view of healthcare is insane.

    I desisted from argument but not from explanation. The challenge is that you're not accepting the distinction.

    From my perspective, it is important to indicate flaws in the thought process; there's no right to have them go unsaid, which is furthermore unhealthy.

    Didn't I topline in the last message that you weren't obligated to restart discussion?

    How about a compromise: I'm too insensitive and you're too sensitive. Ultimately if I couldn't come up with an approach that didn't upset you I'm a failure.
    I wrote:

    Quote Originally Posted by Me
    Those are my views on the points you raise. Given that this discussion has reached an impasse and has become unpleasantly personal I would prefer not to continue it.


    Kind Regards,


    Philip
    What part of this seemed like an opening to offer more opinions? Especially since you wrote to me first? That's the great part about etiquite (which I am breaking in a probably futile attempt to explain this) - you don't need to be sensitive, you just need to follow the rules.

    So did he want to kill him because he hated English politicians as an Irishman? If not, I've heard of a "liberal" who decided Aryans are good and therefore Jews are bad because of something (?) she read on Wikipedia. Random maniacs are one thing; massive cultural ecosystems with millions of members, sophisticated messaging, and representation at all levels of political, social, and economic power - obviously a different ballpark. The fish always rots from the head down when it comes to violence and tyranny. Don't focus on individuals.
    He just wanted to kill him for being a Conservative, I think - I'm English and he was quite happy to drink with me, and not in the "Englishmen are bastards but you're alright" way, either.

    I'm not calling for adopting their rhetoric, but for mass recognition of the implications and extant effects of their ideology and their long-consistent and escalating practices. In fact, I'm certain that right-wing rhetorical styles are inherently ineffective on and repugnant to people on the Left.
    Are you aware that Left-Wing rhetorical styles tend to be repugnant to people on the Right? There's beeen some research on this with regard to explaining climate change. People on the Left tend to focus on long-term future consequences at the expense of short-term consequences. People on the Right tend not to listen to this because the projections are usually off (because Science isn't exact at predictions) and people lose their jobs. On the other hand, people on the Left are either ignorant or dismissive of the past and don't think about how things used to be.

    All you need to do to explain climate change to someone on the Right is point at a river and go "that used to be full of fish" and they get it, but people on the Left are naturally disinclined to make that argument because they don't look to the past to inform the present or the future.

    It just doesn't work that way and never has. What we should be trying to persuade people of is the immediate mortal threat of global Reaction, like a Thunberg for fascism. Merely trying to confront their arguments directly is of little use as a strategy toward building power because the lies and the money behind them are unlimited and the public does not primarily respond to reasoned argument in the first place, which as a fan of Classical philosophy you should acknowledge. The Right certainly haven't built power through any form of reasoned argumentation (lol).

    What CAN be done - merely winning a few elections is not adequate to the scale of the problem - I don't know. Psychology and education are a definitive barrier here, because there really is a consistent psychological profile to the sort of people who are willing to destroy for narrow gain or who are willing to be easily manipulated. You only need a third to passively watch another third eliminate the last third and whatnot.
    Firstly, Miss Thurberg is a distraction being used by politicians - which is a shame. Secondly, Fascism is, by its nature, un-civil. One of the reasons Oswald Mosely never took off was that the British, being reserved and disinclined to parades, to uniforms, or shouting, found all the trappings of Fascism repugnant.

    You want to defeat Fascism - rebuild civil society, instead of coming down to their level and being un-civil.

    Brits are free to comment on American politics, but we prefer they come with the mindset that words and ideas mean something and can be related to facts or knowledge - rather than being mere weapons to annoy or to destroy.
    Wrong thread.
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  15. #165
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    Are you aware that Left-Wing rhetorical styles tend to be repugnant to people on the Right? There's beeen some research on this with regard to explaining climate change. People on the Left tend to focus on long-term future consequences at the expense of short-term consequences. People on the Right tend not to listen to this because the projections are usually off (because Science isn't exact at predictions) and people lose their jobs. On the other hand, people on the Left are either ignorant or dismissive of the past and don't think about how things used to be.
    The left (well, centre) have been pointing out the detrimental effects of Brexit, with reference to expert opinions, material evidence and consistent logic. Can you point out the short term benefits of Brexit? Medium term? Long term?

    In the other thread, I've posted Dominic Grieve (former Tory AG) accusing Dominic Cummings of lying about Remainer collusion with foreign governments. IA prefers to believe the Mail's story and unsourced accusation. Is this typical right wing debating methodology that the left needs to be sympathetic to? I've also posted news that the NI police don't want to be involved with the border, and Furunculus has dismissed this even though he offers no argument while it's the NI's chief constable who says this. Is this right wing debating methodology that the left has to be sympathetic to too?

    My debating methodology is simple and consistent. It's the engineering method. Define the problem, then go through a series of processes examining the problem and possible solutions, with evidence-based assessment informing each stage. It's neither intrinsically left wing nor right wing, although the left tends to be more sympathetic to the approach. It's the approach that works. Am I unreasonable for preferring this method?

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    Default Re: UK Politics Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    I tend to strive for a 1:1 ratio - that way it doesn't escalate to someone spending three hours and two cups of coffee to reply.
    It depends on what remains unresolved. I'm not trying to pursue every disagreement though.

    I disagree, the majority of them didn't vote in the referendum and then complained their parents were "selfish" for wanting to leave the EU. That's evidence of stupidity and ingratitude, not to mention cynicism. They complain about the environment by tweeting from the iPhones.
    It's relative.

    I consider political ideologies dangerous when people propose to put them into practice. Ideaological systems should be confined to universities and not let out.
    You think you don't have an ideology?

    Fine, you presume to debate with me about my expert subject and subjects connected to it - previous denials were merely a rhetorical device.
    You're an expert on everything currently under discussion? What a polymath.

    I'll require a citation if you're going to argue he "persecuted" non-Christians. Certainly, he increasingly promoted Christianity - it is why he went to war with his more religiously pluralistic brother-in-law (who may also actually have been a closet Christian).
    So, what you've written isn't much contradicting my point* but to continue would demand considerable citations on both are parts, which you've intimated you hate to do with me. For my part I don't want to read whole books like this one for the sake of argument.

    To respond to the quoted, here's a Wiki.

    *Which was not that Christianity spread primarily by military conquest (neither did Islam for the most part after the first auspicious century), but of the prominence of elite institutions and individuals in its spread.

    I'm going with, "I know this history better than you do."
    You haven't shown it.

    Why don't we agree to settle this narrowly: here's a paper (which I haven't read yet) titled "Public Opinion and Parliament in the Abolition of the British Slave Trade." It's of average length. Can we come back tomorrow and have a verdict on whose concept of history it hews closest to? Just for the sake of these posts.

    If you say so - according to Indian historiography they had multiple "Wars of Independence" that went exactly nowhere until Ghandi went on hunger strike.
    Right, so what's your point?

    Last week you wanted to utterly destroy the Right, yes?
    What does this have to do with Indian independence?


    I'm sorry, but this really is Marxist historiography. There is not "pre-Modernist Right". The concept does not exist, trying to impose it is grossly anachronistic. In the case of the Protestants it's they who are the reactionary, intolerant, regressive element.
    You're still not understanding me, jeez. Pre-Modernist refers not to their direct provenance but to their worldview!!! For example, if fascists are a modernist ideology then monarchists and antisecularists (almost always) are pre-modernist, though both are contemporary forms of reactionary movement. Is this difficult to understand? Here's a helpful link.

    All measures, 100 years ago we had an unassailable advantage in science, technology, economic wealth and military power
    Your idea of decline is relative power, despite the fact that in absolute terms we're more powerful and prosperous than ever before? Yikes.

    OK - you don't believe in practical government - you prefer ideals - noted.
    What's the meaningful distinction in relation to yourself?

    I feel like you're attacking my principles, though, so those are my principles. If you struggle to accept that it's because you're trying to fit me into an American Right-Wing Christian pigeon hole.

    Frankly, I think you're doing the same to Furunculus - rather than engaging us and trying to understand our positions you just filter what we say through your preconceptions as a way to understand it.

    Consider - most Brits, including myself, would consider that the Average American view of healthcare is insane.
    I've been trying to explain why your understanding of your own principles is wrong. I think I understand them very well and that you haven't sufficiently considered their full implications.

    What part of this seemed like an opening to offer more opinions? Especially since you wrote to me first? That's the great part about etiquite (which I am breaking in a probably futile attempt to explain this) - you don't need to be sensitive, you just need to follow the rules.
    Well, your rules. I can admit to doing a bad job relating to you.

    Are you aware that Left-Wing rhetorical styles tend to be repugnant to people on the Right? There's beeen some research on this with regard to explaining climate change. People on the Left tend to focus on long-term future consequences at the expense of short-term consequences. People on the Right tend not to listen to this because the projections are usually off (because Science isn't exact at predictions) and people lose their jobs.
    I would be more inclined to believe this if so many on the Right weren't convinced of absolute falsehoods, falsehoods that are documented to be calculated promulgations by the political strategy of industry and right-wing billionaires. In fact, in the barest terms polling consistently shows that the idea of preserving the air, water, land, and climate is quite popular among the self-identifying Right. The conspiracies are what muddle it more than anything, which ultimately makes opposition to climate action on the Right a matter of group identity - just like immigration, gender norms, and all the rest. Everything becomes subsumed to culture war. Again, keep in mind who started the fire.

    On the other hand, people on the Left are either ignorant or dismissive of the past and don't think about how things used to be.
    What does that mean?

    All you need to do to explain climate change to someone on the Right is point at a river and go "that used to be full of fish" and they get it, but people on the Left are naturally disinclined to make that argument because they don't look to the past to inform the present or the future.
    This is a little warmer, but I think the difference is between abstract and personal. Leftist rhetoric around climate change is very abstract, referring to general harms and responsibilities and vast obscure inhuman phenomena . To my recollection study shows that personal moral engagement on the importance of action/consequences of inaction is more effective than "rational argumentation" about cause and effect. This is true on the part of both right and left wing audiences.

    Firstly, Miss Thurberg is a distraction being used by politicians - which is a shame.
    The politicians are the distraction. Her aim is to agitate the world audience, to instill more proximate alarm.

    Secondly, Fascism is, by its nature, un-civil. One of the reasons Oswald Mosely never took off was that the British, being reserved and disinclined to parades, to uniforms, or shouting, found all the trappings of Fascism repugnant.
    I would think a more important factor would be the withdrawal of funding and support by Mussolini's regime in 1937/8.

    You want to defeat Fascism - rebuild civil society, instead of coming down to their level and being un-civil.
    See, this is just infuriating. "Rebuild civil society" is what the Left is trying to do, and is orders of magnitude more civil than the fascists, yet you would criticize both in the most blandly generic terms.

    Wrong thread.
    Last edited by Montmorency; 10-04-2019 at 00:43.
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  17. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    See, this is just infuriating. "Rebuild civil society" is what the Left is trying to do, and is orders of magnitude more civil than the fascists, yet you would criticize both in the most blandly generic terms.
    On Brexit.

    Leavers: Both sides have experts.
    Reality: Overwhelming majority of experts backed Remain's arguments.

    Leavers: Both sides told lies.
    Reality: Overwhelming majority of lies told by Leave campaigners, especially ones with no basis and ones planned for effect.

    I'm not quite sure what the rhetorical trick is called. It's related to strawman in that it's building something up to be knocked down. Except that it's building up a seemingly reasonable position by describing something in generic terms that cannot be related to anything concrete. Mother's apple pie may be the closest parallel, in that the debater seeks to occupy ground that cannot possibly be countered. Possibly a combo of mom's apple pie followed by non sequiturs, as the debater sets out an uncounterable position, followed by an ergo argument that is unrelated to the apple pie position, which cannot be countered as the debater would argue that you are arguing against mom's apple pie, which of course is utterly unreasonable, but the ergo argument is used to defend the normally indefensible.

    One form of this is the above, where the debater condemns both sides, thus showing their balance and reasonableness. Except the evidence overwhelmingly favours the other side. Just start by condemning both sides, then use the tiny minority argument to extrapolate, preferably with wide angle philosophical arguments that admit no evidence-based discussion. Both left and right can use this rhetorical technique of course. But the left tends to respect science more.

    I think the US and UK are both experiencing the extreme abuse of liberal democracy, admitting the worst excesses of liberalism (everyone has rights) and democracy (everyone's opinion is of equal value), without admitting the responsibilities and moderation required to make it work.

  18. #168
    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    It depends on what remains unresolved. I'm not trying to pursue every disagreement though.
    Maybe you're not aware, but you consistently tend to double up on what the other person writes, which then often requires a doubling again, post expand in length geometrically - one time I needed three hours to reply to you.

    It's relative.
    Even relatively speaking I'm not impressed.

    You think you don't have an ideology?
    I have beliefs - I try to avoid allowing them to coalesce into an ideology.

    You're an expert on everything currently under discussion? What a polymath.
    Not what I meant, which I think you know. My field is history, especially the history of the Christian Church (which includes theology at times). My point was that you said you would not presume to debate my specialist field with me - but you do.

    So, what you've written isn't much contradicting my point* but to continue would demand considerable citations on both are parts, which you've intimated you hate to do with me. For my part I don't want to read whole books like this one for the sake of argument.

    To respond to the quoted, here's a Wiki.

    *Which was not that Christianity spread primarily by military conquest (neither did Islam for the most part after the first auspicious century), but of the prominence of elite institutions and individuals in its spread.
    Little to no elite sponsorship, quite the opposite, before Constantine. Rather like the spread of Protestantism pre-Luthor - for a given value of Protestantism, of course. Also, I note that wiki states that the first serious persecutions were under Constantine's son.

    You haven't shown it.

    Why don't we agree to settle this narrowly: here's a paper (which I haven't read yet) titled "Public Opinion and Parliament in the Abolition of the British Slave Trade." It's of average length. Can we come back tomorrow and have a verdict on whose concept of history it hews closest to? Just for the sake of these posts.
    Well, it mentions the Somerset case, at least. I haven't read the whole thing but I would say it supports my position. Abolition started in the towns with petitioning committees, then it went to Parliament.

    Right, so what's your point?
    Violence doesn't really work?

    What does this have to do with Indian independence?
    I was responding to your "No" which was apparently you responding to me saying you wanted "a war for annihilation". Nothing to do with India.

    You're still not understanding me, jeez. Pre-Modernist refers not to their direct provenance but to their worldview!!! For example, if fascists are a modernist ideology then monarchists and antisecularists (almost always) are pre-modernist, though both are contemporary forms of reactionary movement. Is this difficult to understand? Here's a helpful link.
    Stop conflating history and social theory if you want me to understand you. So, let's dispense with the French Revolution - it wasn't much cop. Let's also dispense with 1517 as being of great social significance in and of itself. That whirring sound is Huss spinning in his grave, or it would be if he wasn't burned to ash.

    In any case, the idea of an over-arching "Pre-Modernist Right" doesn't really wash. It would include, for example, mine liege Lord Baron Clinton and mine current Lord the Earl of Devon. The old Earl was rather anti Gay Marriage but otherwise a lovely chap. Not so sure about Baron Clinton, he let the local pub in Frithlestock close.

    Your idea of decline is relative power, despite the fact that in absolute terms we're more powerful and prosperous than ever before? Yikes.
    Relative power is always more important because it's what allows your nation to govern its own destiny. I;'m not even sure on the absolute-power front either. Britain used to rule about 25% of the world.

    What's the meaningful distinction in relation to yourself?
    It was a comment on your view - not mine. Direct Democracy doesn't work beyond a certain level - the level where everyone knows everyone else in the group.

    I've been trying to explain why your understanding of your own principles is wrong. I think I understand them very well and that you haven't sufficiently considered their full implications.

    Well, your rules. I can admit to doing a bad job relating to you.
    Why don't you state my principles for the class, then? Start by stating one principle I hold, then explain why it's wrong.

    Honestly, I find a lack of manners offensive. I think you deliberately refuse to cultivate them as a point of principle, which seems perverse - all it does is annoy people.

    You are right, though, you don't understand me - and I think the reason is because you don't take me at face value. Instead of asking why I say what I say you ask what I "really mean" because you can't believe I actually mean what I say.

    It's cynicism.

    I would be more inclined to believe this if so many on the Right weren't convinced of absolute falsehoods, falsehoods that are documented to be calculated promulgations by the political strategy of industry and right-wing billionaires. In fact, in the barest terms polling consistently shows that the idea of preserving the air, water, land, and climate is quite popular among the self-identifying Right. The conspiracies are what muddle it more than anything, which ultimately makes opposition to climate action on the Right a matter of group identity - just like immigration, gender norms, and all the rest. Everything becomes subsumed to culture war. Again, keep in mind who started the fire.
    "I don't need to engage with the issue because the other side is brainwashed".

    OK - sure Monty - so if you aren't going to engage what are you going to do?

    What does that mean?
    You're only looking forward - you don't look back to work out how we got here - so you can't fathom how to get out.

    This is a little warmer, but I think the difference is between abstract and personal. Leftist rhetoric around climate change is very abstract, referring to general harms and responsibilities and vast obscure inhuman phenomena . To my recollection study shows that personal moral engagement on the importance of action/consequences of inaction is more effective than "rational argumentation" about cause and effect. This is true on the part of both right and left wing audiences.
    There was a study on this - the Left, aka progressives, look at the future and fear what will happen wherease the Right aka conservatives look to the past and ask if now is better or worse. So you need to demonstrate now is worse.

    The politicians are the distraction. Her aim is to agitate the world audience, to instill more proximate alarm.
    Europe and the US is already agitated - Asia and Africa want clean water and electricity first. Once they have those things they may get agitated about all the dead Dolphins.

    I would think a more important factor would be the withdrawal of funding and support by Mussolini's regime in 1937/8.
    Mosely was always considered a fringe nut and the British people actively opposed his Fascist thugs instead of being cowed by them.

    See, this is just infuriating. "Rebuild civil society" is what the Left is trying to do, and is orders of magnitude more civil than the fascists, yet you would criticize both in the most blandly generic terms.

    No, the Left is trying to "Build a New Society", it's not the same thing. Civil Society is in the Centre - you cannot rebuild it from the Left or the Right because it is the meeting of people in the middle.
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  19. #169

    Default Re: UK Politics Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    Maybe you're not aware, but you consistently tend to double up on what the other person writes, which then often requires a doubling again, post expand in length geometrically - one time I needed three hours to reply to you.
    It's a function of how much I have to say, stamina, mood, and other factors.

    I have beliefs - I try to avoid allowing them to coalesce into an ideology.
    So afraid of the term ideology that you haven't taken a step back to look at yourself.

    Not what I meant, which I think you know. My field is history, especially the history of the Christian Church (which includes theology at times). My point was that you said you would not presume to debate my specialist field with me - but you do.
    I largely avoided the history of the Church for that reason. If you mean history in general, well, I'll just point out that historical subjects are frequently referenced or contested on the Org.

    Little to no elite sponsorship, quite the opposite, before Constantine.
    I'll defer to you here.

    Well, it mentions the Somerset case, at least. I haven't read the whole thing but I would say it supports my position. Abolition started in the towns with petitioning committees, then it went to Parliament.
    I'll get back to you on it tomorrow.

    Violence doesn't really work?
    *sigh* That's not what I said.

    I was responding to your "No" which was apparently you responding to me saying you wanted "a war for annihilation". Nothing to do with India.
    Can you be more specific in which of my statements you are referring to and what it is you're saying about it?

    Stop conflating history and social theory if you want me to understand you. So, let's dispense with the French Revolution - it wasn't much cop. Let's also dispense with 1517 as being of great social significance in and of itself. That whirring sound is Huss spinning in his grave, or it would be if he wasn't burned to ash.
    If you mean that historical events have genealogies, sure.

    In any case, the idea of an over-arching "Pre-Modernist Right" doesn't really wash. It would include, for example, mine liege Lord Baron Clinton and mine current Lord the Earl of Devon. The old Earl was rather anti Gay Marriage but otherwise a lovely chap. Not so sure about Baron Clinton, he let the local pub in Frithlestock close.
    Does he want to subordinate the popular consciousness to "natural" hierarchies? Does your lord want to expand his power? Does he want to reorganize society in a way reminiscent of 17th-century English social relations? You understand very well what I've been talking about, come off it.

    It was a comment on your view - not mine. Direct Democracy doesn't work beyond a certain level - the level where everyone knows everyone else in the group.
    I literally told you I wasn't referring to direct democracy, although there should surely be more direct democracy in day-to-day life.

    Why don't you state my principles for the class, then? Start by stating one principle I hold, then explain why it's wrong.
    A belief in centrism, for one.

    Honestly, I find a lack of manners offensive. I think you deliberately refuse to cultivate them as a point of principle, which seems perverse - all it does is annoy people.
    I don't perceive myself as being less mannerly than yourself in these conversations. I do have a trait of pushing people past the point of discomfort. But this is text, online - if you're aggravated, step back and relax.

    You are right, though, you don't understand me - and I think the reason is because you don't take me at face value. Instead of asking why I say what I say you ask what I "really mean" because you can't believe I actually mean what I say.

    It's cynicism.
    Again, you're just wrong. I don't ask you what you really mean, I tried to show you what you're saying does mean beyond what you're willing to reflect on. How many times do need to say this before you'll acknowledge it?

    "I don't need to engage with the issue because the other side is brainwashed".

    OK - sure Monty - so if you aren't going to engage what are you going to do?
    I didn't say that. Engage with the words I typed?

    You're only looking forward - you don't look back to work out how we got here - so you can't fathom how to get out.
    Er, I definitely am considering the past, which is why I've been highlighting modern intellectual and political history. What do you mean by "get out" yourself?

    There was a study on this - the Left, aka progressives, look at the future and fear what will happen wherease the Right aka conservatives look to the past and ask if now is better or worse. So you need to demonstrate now is worse.
    I don't think you can gain a thorough understanding of the world through this lens. Just link the paper so I can compare.

    Europe and the US is already agitated - Asia and Africa want clean water and electricity first. Once they have those things they may get agitated about all the dead Dolphins.
    Ah, so you haven't heard a single thing Thunberg said. No, Europe and the US are not agitated.

    Mosely was always considered a fringe nut and the British people actively opposed his Fascist thugs instead of being cowed by them.
    That's true everywhere (namely that fascists start out as fringe thugs and some elements of the population actively oppose them).

    No, the Left is trying to "Build a New Society"
    Well, some of us are, but as I've impressed on you the current society won't survive in its current form regardless.

    Civil Society is in the Centre - you cannot rebuild it from the Left or the Right because it is the meeting of people in the middle
    There is no such thing as a "centre" except as an ideological construction.


    EDIT: You know, this is tiresome. If we're going to talk about something let's have it be one narrow subject and develop that. Deal?
    Last edited by Montmorency; 10-04-2019 at 03:53.
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  20. #170
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    Default Re: UK Politics Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    It's a function of how much I have to say, stamina, mood, and other factors.
    Three hours and two cups of coffee - that's all I'm saying. Also, I think it's more a function of you developing new tangents.

    So afraid of the term ideology that you haven't taken a step back to look at yourself.
    In order to be afraid you have to have something to be afraid for - I have little left, except my family. You say I seem inconsistent, it's a common charge you lay against me, but you also say I have an ideology - even though I don't realise it.

    I largely avoided the history of the Church for that reason. If you mean history in general, well, I'll just point out that historical subjects are frequently referenced or contested on the Org.
    I have no objection to you debating me, I object to your gesture of false deference. Incidentally - this is a great example of you looking for subtext where there is none.

    I'll defer to you here.
    Why thank you - conversely Constantine and his mother more than made up for it after his conversion.

    I'll get back to you on it tomorrow.
    OK.

    *sigh* That's not what I said.
    You specifically said the threat of violence was the reason Indian Independence got off the ground - because the Powers that Be preferred to deal with the less violent elements. I'm arguing the opposite - until the non-violent elements emerged violence was going nowhere fast.

    Can you be more specific in which of my statements you are referring to and what it is you're saying about it?
    Well, you were the one who responded "No". I suggest you try tracing the thread of the conversation back. You'll appreciate why I dislike overly long posts.

    If you mean that historical events have genealogies, sure.
    To suggest history is one thing after another is banal. My point is that there was no Right and no Left before those concepts were given names - principally through the Whigs and Tories in England. The fact that both Whigs and Tories would be considered "Right Wing" today is significant.

    The point is that there has been no "grand struggle" between the Right and the Left - there have been a series of partially related struggles throughout history that are often only tangentially connected. The English Lollard in the 14th Century has nothing in common with the American Communist in the 20th except persecution, for example.

    Does he want to subordinate the popular consciousness to "natural" hierarchies? Does your lord want to expand his power? Does he want to reorganize society in a way reminiscent of 17th-century English social relations? You understand very well what I've been talking about, come off it.
    Like most English aristocracy they believe in Parliamentary democracy, last I checked. Rather fond of military service, and mostly quiet acts of charity, no longer try to get their sons elected to the House of Commons. In short, nothing like the American "Upper Class" you are reacting against.

    I literally told you I wasn't referring to direct democracy, although there should surely be more direct democracy in day-to-day life.
    You want "a more direct democracy" though, I think - what happens when you get it and it fails?

    A belief in centrism, for one.
    Only by default of a disdain for the excesses of the Right and Left.

    I don't perceive myself as being less mannerly than yourself in these conversations. I do have a trait of pushing people past the point of discomfort. But this is text, online - if you're aggravated, step back and relax.
    Why make people deliberately uncomfortable unless you want to aggravate them? It's a pointless exercise, especially in the Backroom.

    Again, you're just wrong. I don't ask you what you really mean, I tried to show you what you're saying does mean beyond what you're willing to reflect on. How many times do need to say this before you'll acknowledge it?
    Right, you're looking for the subtext - if I deny there is one you insist there is - which is what you are doing now. In any case, you've openly accused me and Furunculus of intellectual dishonesty in the last month. It took pages to hammer through basic points to you in that thread on gender.

    Again - pigeon-holing me into the "Christian therefore homo/trans-phobic" box.

    I didn't say that. Engage with the words I typed?
    You are the only one allowed to see subtext, then? It's a bloody tiresome effort to get you to engage with the words I type, it's also a monstrous effort to wade through your jargon, sometimes. My least favourite word you use is "overdetermined".

    Not a thing.

    Er, I definitely am considering the past, which is why I've been highlighting modern intellectual and political history. What do you mean by "get out" yourself?

    I don't think you can gain a thorough understanding of the world through this lens. Just link the paper so I can compare.
    https://medium.com/s/story/how-to-ta...g-1a484aaf6227

    Can't find the original piece now, we discussed it a couple of years ago as I recall.

    Ah, so you haven't heard a single thing Thunberg said. No, Europe and the US are not agitated.
    So because she says they aren't that means they aren't?

    She accuses world-leaders of stealing her future but the reality is that she was born into a world blighted by human over-population. People are attracted to her because she's young, idealistic, innocent and angry - an anger born of hope. She's basically Joan of Arc for the Climate Change movement. None of which changes the simple fact that even if we stop climate change dead tomorrow the planet will continue to be ravaged by humans at an unprecedented rate.

    In Europe and the US a lot of people spend a lot of time worrying about this, but there's very little more that can really be done unless people accept a radical drop in quality of life of not having children.

    That's true everywhere (namely that fascists start out as fringe thugs and some elements of the population actively oppose them).
    Both the Italians and Germans rather liked political uniforms and the other trappings of Fascism - even if they didn't like the political content.

    Well, some of us are, but as I've impressed on you the current society won't survive in its current form regardless.
    I think this is a deterministic and therefore fallacious argument - the current society won't survive so we need to tear it down.

    Rome is always... oh never mind.

    There is no such thing as a "centre" except as an ideological construction.
    Say's the man committed to the Hard Left.

    EDIT: You know, this is tiresome. If we're going to talk about something let's have it be one narrow subject and develop that. Deal?
    It's been tiresome for weeks.
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  21. #171
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    Apparently, Johnson now wants to replace the Supreme Court that opposed him with his appointees, while the Mail (notoriously a backer of the far right in the 1930s) practically accuses his opponents of treason.

    Threatening the opposition with violence, getting control of the judiciary, accusing the opposition of treason. Where is the basis for civil discourse?
    FDR tried to pack our court in the '30s. Even his political popularity and jaunty style flopped on that one. I sincerely doubt that the UK is less resilient on such things. Civil discourse tends to get lost in the shuffle during polarized political eras -- and you lot certainly have that right now.

    I've had the pleasure for most of my adult life -- which I attribute to the media wigging out over Reagan (way more than justified, they treated him like a Nixon when he was not). This, coupled with the 'rebirth' of talk radio as the tool of right wing bloviators then begat an audience that increasingly bought in to the "victory" model over the "compromise" model in US politics. It's getting to be as bad as the old Roman racing team crap.
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  22. #172
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    Default Re: UK Politics Thread

    Interesting, I've heard a similar tale from right wingers of the democrats adopting a "victory over comprimise" doctrine.

    Seems there is a game of "you started it" going on. I expect that such will emerge between leave and remain in a few years/decades, right now people still have a clear memory of its beginning.
    Last edited by Greyblades; 10-06-2019 at 06:54.
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  23. #173
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    FDR tried to pack our court in the '30s. Even his political popularity and jaunty style flopped on that one. I sincerely doubt that the UK is less resilient on such things. Civil discourse tends to get lost in the shuffle during polarized political eras -- and you lot certainly have that right now.

    I've had the pleasure for most of my adult life -- which I attribute to the media wigging out over Reagan (way more than justified, they treated him like a Nixon when he was not). This, coupled with the 'rebirth' of talk radio as the tool of right wing bloviators then begat an audience that increasingly bought in to the "victory" model over the "compromise" model in US politics. It's getting to be as bad as the old Roman racing team crap.
    The US system was designed to have clear checks and balances and an expectation that the politicians will be the worst of all men, and gridlock in the two Houses being a good thing. The UK system is founded on the expectation that custom and a recognition of the necessity of a Parliamentary majority will be rules enough, that this allows the executive a great deal of leeway. When this foundation is abused to heck like it is by Brexiteers, then a lot of the underlying assumptions no longer work, and every step towards authoritarianism has greater implications than it would in a US system. There were warnings when May wanted to expand the scope of the executive's powers, with the question: would you want Corbyn to have these powers too?

    Right now, the systemic abuse is still predominantly from the Leave side, although we're seeing it from the far left too. There is still a fair chunk of the centre, which Remain still is, that still observes the old ways. There is still scope for stopping the authoritarians. But you can see from the arguments offered by Brexiteers here that authoritarianism is becoming increasingly acceptable to them to give them their Brexit, with the argument that the old norms should be abandoned if it denies them what they want.

  24. #174
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    The Times now reporting via cabinet sources that Johnson is willing to squat in 10 Downing Street even if Parliament agrees a replacement government, that no manner of hints will be taken even from the head of state, that he will only be removed physically with an arrest warrant, such is his determination to drive through Brexit. And you know what? The Brexiteers on here would still take his side.

  25. #175
    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK Politics Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    The Times now reporting via cabinet sources that Johnson is willing to squat in 10 Downing Street even if Parliament agrees a replacement government, that no manner of hints will be taken even from the head of state, that he will only be removed physically with an arrest warrant, such is his determination to drive through Brexit. And you know what? The Brexiteers on here would still take his side.
    We would not, I certainly would not.

    In any case, for this to be an eventuality Jeremy Corbyn would first need to get out of the way and allow Ken Clarke to become Prime Minister. As things stand he won't, which means they'll force Boris Johnson to apply for an extension himself. I f that goes through Johnson's sins will be wiped away in the eyes of voters and he will win the ensuing election - unless Corbyn refuses to back one again.

    In that case Boris Johnson will wipe Labour out.

    The problem with having two so visible and idiosyncratic Leaders is that their parties become subsumed to the Leader's agenda in the public consciousness.
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  26. #176
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    We would not, I certainly would not.

    In any case, for this to be an eventuality Jeremy Corbyn would first need to get out of the way and allow Ken Clarke to become Prime Minister. As things stand he won't, which means they'll force Boris Johnson to apply for an extension himself. I f that goes through Johnson's sins will be wiped away in the eyes of voters and he will win the ensuing election - unless Corbyn refuses to back one again.

    In that case Boris Johnson will wipe Labour out.

    The problem with having two so visible and idiosyncratic Leaders is that their parties become subsumed to the Leader's agenda in the public consciousness.
    You reckon so? Cox (the government's chief lawyer, for our US posters) is threatening to resign if Johnson does not send the letter as instructed, so he obviously thinks this is a realistic scenario. And this is a man who has already been willing to bend constitutional law for this government.

    Whatever the details of the machinations, such as Cummings imagines himself to be a genius in, and Corbyn's lot absolutely glory in, I wish UK politics would return to a time when discussion was merely about how much one side or the other would move in a certain direction, with maybe a bit of give and take here and there. The debates about Brexit have convinced me that absolute arguments about philosophical points ruin the country. Any discussion of government should be grounded in statistical measures that can be cross referenced. If a winning argument does not have these metrics to measure against, it does not confer any kind of mandate.

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  27. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    You reckon so? Cox (the government's chief lawyer, for our US posters) is threatening to resign if Johnson does not send the letter as instructed, so he obviously thinks this is a realistic scenario. And this is a man who has already been willing to bend constitutional law for this government.

    Whatever the details of the machinations, such as Cummings imagines himself to be a genius in, and Corbyn's lot absolutely glory in, I wish UK politics would return to a time when discussion was merely about how much one side or the other would move in a certain direction, with maybe a bit of give and take here and there. The debates about Brexit have convinced me that absolute arguments about philosophical points ruin the country. Any discussion of government should be grounded in statistical measures that can be cross referenced. If a winning argument does not have these metrics to measure against, it does not confer any kind of mandate.
    Geoffrey's worried?

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    Default Re: UK Politics Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    FDR tried to pack our court in the '30s. Even his political popularity and jaunty style flopped on that one. I sincerely doubt that the UK is less resilient on such things. Civil discourse tends to get lost in the shuffle during polarized political eras -- and you lot certainly have that right now.

    I've had the pleasure for most of my adult life -- which I attribute to the media wigging out over Reagan (way more than justified, they treated him like a Nixon when he was not). This, coupled with the 'rebirth' of talk radio as the tool of right wing bloviators then begat an audience that increasingly bought in to the "victory" model over the "compromise" model in US politics. It's getting to be as bad as the old Roman racing team crap.
    I can't speak to what news media were like before the millennium, but aside from Vietnam Reagan was much worse than Nixon! Any media "wigging out" over a Republican president can only give rise to the right-wing ecosystem on the premise that they want "the whole hog." But in fact the far right has been strategizing media contestation since before Nixon, even since FDR. Like I'm saying, it's a total war in all domains of human epistemology (and physically too).

    The history of FDR's court packing threat is pretty interesting. I had the pleasure of reading this paper just published in January on public perceptions of court packing at the time, and the data created at the dawn of public polling. Some highlights:

    Despite Roosevelt’s landslide win, the public held ambivalent attitudes concerning the Supreme Court. In November 1936, most Americans were dissatisfied with the Court’s decisions in New Deal cases. As displayed on the left side of Table 1, nearly 60% of respondents believed “the Supreme Court should be more liberal in reviewing New Deal measures.”7 Respondents who voted for FDR were even more frustrated with the Court (81.0%), yet even one in four Alf Landon voters shared these sentiments. On the other hand, many respondents expressed concern for the separation of powers, consistent with the ALL’s defense of the Supreme Court. Only 40.4% supported “limiting the power of the Supreme Court to declare acts of Congress unconstitutional,” and Roosevelt voters were not overwhelmingly in favor of this idea either (57.8%).

    The March 3–8, 1937, poll includes questions measuring attitudes on the compet-ing methods of resolving the New Deal constitutional conflict. The two dependent vari-ables are “Are you in favor of President Roosevelt’s proposal regarding the Supreme Court?” and “Would you favor an amendment to the Constitution giving Congress greater power to regulate industry and agriculture?”8 Overall, 49.0% of respondents fa-vored Court packing, and 60.1% supported a constitutional amendment.9
    The survey asked for political identification from the options Democrat, Republican, and socialist (and Independent as a write-in). Race, sex, region, occupation, and income were also recorded. All demographics of political affiliation and income group preferred a constitutional amendment to court packing - as did even those who believed the Constitution was too difficult to amend - though the confidence intervals for Democrats and those on government relief are large enough that you could call it roughly equal support among those groups for our level of rigor. While Republicans naturally hated the idea of court packing, they approved of a constitutional amendment about on par with the approval other political affiliations and income groups had for court packing. However, pluralities of Democrats at ~40% probability favored both options, while a similar plurality among Republicans rejected both. Very small minorities favored court packing but not an amendment (FDR's position). Roughly similar proportions across demographics preferred only a constitutional amendment (Herbert Hoover's position) at >25%, so in other words the most significant differentiating variables between demographics were support for both proposals and support for only court packing (e.g. 16.5% probability among Democrats).

    A followup poll indicated that a similarly-strong majority of Americans as favored an amendment wished FDR had made the court an explicit issue in his 1936 campaign, including a majority of Democrats. Asked about who they would have voted in 1936 in light of the court packing agenda, there is a small net swing in favor of Landon that if translated to vote shares would have left FDR beating Landon by only +15 rather than +24.

    The author concludes the data suggest that concerns about procedural legitimacy motivated many non-Republicans, who all tended to support a constitutional amendment at similar probabilities of 60+%.

    Of course, times are different now, the country is much more diverse, and the Republicans are packing courts on the federal and state level anyway to much approbation. It becomes a matter of relentless signalling from the Dem Party to agitate enough of the electorate into influencing Democratic congresspersons to consent to some scheme - because it needs to happen as the contingency on which all else pends.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    The US system was designed to have clear checks and balances and an expectation that the politicians will be the worst of all men, and gridlock in the two Houses being a good thing. The UK system is founded on the expectation that custom and a recognition of the necessity of a Parliamentary majority will be rules enough, that this allows the executive a great deal of leeway. When this foundation is abused to heck like it is by Brexiteers, then a lot of the underlying assumptions no longer work, and every step towards authoritarianism has greater implications than it would in a US system. There were warnings when May wanted to expand the scope of the executive's powers, with the question: would you want Corbyn to have these powers too?

    Right now, the systemic abuse is still predominantly from the Leave side, although we're seeing it from the far left too. There is still a fair chunk of the centre, which Remain still is, that still observes the old ways. There is still scope for stopping the authoritarians. But you can see from the arguments offered by Brexiteers here that authoritarianism is becoming increasingly acceptable to them to give them their Brexit, with the argument that the old norms should be abandoned if it denies them what they want.
    That's not quite right. The Founders expected (or at least hoped) elected officials to be of the finest citizens, and gridlock in the legislature was NOT their design or desire, which tended toward majoritarian. Indeed, they assigned Congress the most power of all the branches of government and specified a supermajority requirement only in five cases, all applying in the Senate: ratification of treaties; removal following impeachment; override of executive veto; ratification of constitutional amendment; ___?.


    @PVC

    Here's my reading of the slavery paper:

    *The national abolitionist movement properly began in 1787. The paper reviews its course but doesn't try to explain why it should have been this year in particular.
    *The majority of the population already disagreed with slavery and either actively wanted it gone or would be accepting of abolition; they just needed a spark in the form of a mass movement
    *As always, popular opinion is one thing but getting two houses of the legislature to ratify it is another; the House of Lords stymied serious abolition bills out of the Commons multiple times, and the slavery interest lobby had a similar effect in the Commons
    *The story of the success of the British abolition movement is one of skillful and dedicated curation, organization, and mobilization of what was perennially a majoritarian opinion on the immorality of slavery; once the narrative became news, mass sentiment could become coordinated mass action, potentially forcing the hand of recalcitrant lawmakers
    *The paper has only a handful of examples that emphasize my contention about the vehement character of the public discourse on slavery, but there is minimal evidence present that "compassionate argument" (as compared to, say, rabble-rousing and demagoguery) proved a significant factor in the real-life political process culminating in total abolition of the British slave trade

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    N.b. Below I'll generally be referring to "anti-slavery" and "abolition", but an important distinction is that many mainstream abolitionists preferred to focus on abolishing the slave trade rather than slavery comprehensively. Slave ownership and commerce was not fully outlawed in Britain and the empire until 1833, but I'm not interested in reading another paper just for that.

    Eighteenth-century culture was therefore saturated with casual references to the violence done to social norms by the slave trade.
    The security of the system was often revealed in the instances of its casual
    condemnation. Just ten years before the emergence of abolitionism the author of The Present State of the
    West Inddies (1778), p. 11, noted, In passing, ‘this [slave] trade, to the disgrace of the age, has so deeply taken
    root, it is become so necessary to the present state of affairs, and our wants have justified it in a manner so
    absolute that it is almost common-place to cry out the barbarity and cruelty of it’.
    The following year a quaker abolitionist committee obtained an audience with
    the new ministry, led by the young William Pitt. Once again there was praise for the
    principle, but the committee were told that ‘the time was not yet come to bring the
    affair to maturity’.’ [...] They were not encouraged by the parliamentary response. By
    1785 their distribution of 11,000 copies of Benezet’s principal pamphlet to all M.P.s,
    justices of the Peace and clergy had resulted in ‘an approbation of our benevolence . . .
    but little prospect of success’.’
    Drescher, Capitalism and Antislavery, pp. 63, 206 n. 42. As late as 1785 an item in the London Public
    Advertirer (21 Jan. 1785), warned that to expect any relief from parliament was to expect the impossible ’till
    Negroes, by having boroughs for their property and loans at their disposal, shall have a party in the House
    of Commons at their command’.

    Naturally spurs adjacent hope for all manner of radical reforms to move into the realm of possibility in the near future.

    Anyway, the principle of disgust toward slavery among the bourgeoisie and intelligentsia was well-entrenched, but diffident and sporadic in the face of conservative economic defenses and the absence of any mass movement contravening the influence of slaveholders and slave-dependent industries. Abolition was a niche issue that received little press. Anti-slavery activists were largely ignorant and independent of one another until organizations began coalescing in the late 1980s. (Lotta Quakers unsurprisingly.) The summer of 1987 was when everything changed, because the abolitionist movement coalesced around the London Committee and convinced MP William Wilberforce to take up the cause; he was friends with legendary PM William Pitt the Younger, who also got on board the bandwagon and launched an inquiry into slavery in early 1788 (although "[h]e ‘studiously avoided’ revealing his own views and the opposition chose to remain silent.’").

    [Interesting historical intersection: There is a suggestion that William Pitt took up the abolition issue as a distraction from the growing campaign to impeach Warren Hastings, which itself was a subject of discussion across the Atlantic at the United States Constitutional Convention, referenced by George Mason during the drafting of the impeachment clause. He said, "“Treason will not reach many great and dangerous offences. Hastings is not guilty of treason.” Cool stuff. There's always so much shit going on.]

    Contrary to one important historiographical tradition, British abolitionism did not
    emerge at a moment of chastened anxiety or national humiliation arising from the
    loss of the North American colonies. It was not an attempt to resuscitate Britain's
    threatened image as the torchbearer of liberty in comparison with the new American
    rep~blic.'~ Nor was it a direct response to heightened internal class conflict or to the
    devaluation of the British slave system in relation to the empire or the e~onomy.'~
    To the extent that moral self-scrutiny became an aspect of the post-war imperial
    discourse, it did so in the context of revived national self-confidence. By almost
    every empirical measure popular abolitionism emerged at one of the most benign
    conjunctures of British history in the century between the Seven Years' War and
    the American Civil War. A survey of London's newspapers in 1786-7 evidences a
    nation revelling in its prosperity, security and power. From Cornwall to Aberdeen
    came reports that indicated the most abundant harvest in a decade, and, in some
    places, in living memory. Industry was thriving and the cotton industry in particular
    was expanding at an unprecedented rate. Labour disputes had diminished in the coal
    mines and artisan friendly societies were congratulated on their performance. Pitt
    was given full credit for the administration's successful financial planning and for the
    anticipation of a budgetary surplus."
    Prospects beyond the seas seemed equally bright. British goods were winning out
    everywhere. The new French treaty was throwing open a new market for British
    manufactures. British trade dominated entrepots from Canton to America. The West
    Indies was sending a fine crop of sugar. The French islands were producing cotton
    wool for English industry and expanding British West Indian output promised future
    imperial self-sufficiency.
    What the press found most exhilarating was Britain's transformed international
    position. Plagued by aristocratic revolt and popular rioting, France was verging on
    bankruptcy and military impotence. The Netherlands was descending into revolution.
    The Dutch East and West Indian Companies were both foundering. Britons were
    most fascinated by unfolding developments in the new American republic. In 1786
    and 1787 newspapers offered an unending flow of bad news from New England
    to Georgia: rebellion in Massachusetts; inflation in Rhode Island; stagnation in
    Philadelphia; ferment in New York; problems in Georgia and Carolina. The American
    confederation itself seemed to be disintegrating.
    Whatever may have contributed to transforming abolitionism from a popular
    sentiment to a political movement in 1787, it was not any widespread notion that the
    British needed to snatch the role of liberty’s champion back from the United States.
    Popular abolitionism proceeded from a different premise: how could the world’s most
    secure, free, religous, just, prosperous and moral nation allow itself to remain the
    premier perpetrator of the world’s most deadly, brutal, unjust and immoral offences
    to humanity? How could its people, once fully informed of its inhumanity, hope to
    continue to be blessed with peace, prosperity and power?
    Manchester led the way in the 1787-8 mass campaigning of the abolitionist movement. Despite being a proto-industrial cotton town, the majority of it's adult males (the working class) signed a petition for abolition. Liverpool as a city was the biggest resister, whose mercantilist petition uncivilly accused abolitionists of inciting rebellion.

    Along with Birmingham’s later petition,
    Manchester was given pride of place in affirming that the broadly popular and
    economically informed portion of the nation had opted for abolition. Its petition did
    not concern itself with the policy or economic aspects of the abolitionist case, setting
    a general pattern that was to be followed throughout the next 50 years. Petitioners
    focused first and foremost on the need for political action against an offence to
    humanity, justice and national honour. Subsequent petitions against the trade also
    stressed moral grounds for reform under the same triad of ‘humanity, religion and
    justice.’ Less than five per cent of those to come added any promise of economic
    advantage. [...] Nevertheless, a systematic study of parliamentary
    rhetoric in the major debates until 1807 indicates that, by ratios of two and three
    to one, abolitionists consistently emphasized moral over other reasons for action.
    Their opponents conversely emphasized economic and security reasons, by the same
    ratios. This indicates that the moral versus economic dichotomy inherited from the
    pre-political period remained remarkably stable throughout the two decades before
    abolition was enacted
    Makes me itch to do a socialism.

    Petitions were central to the expansion of the abolition campaign, as were the newspapers in publicizing them. The majority of petitions to Parliament in 1787-8 were abolitionist ones. At least 60,000 signatories in a country of (from a brief Wiki skim) between 6 (~1740) and 10 million (~1800).

    The first campaign caught allies of the slave interest by surprise. They appeared to
    be overwhelmed by the speed and breadth of the national mobilization. The slave
    interest was as dismayed by the adhesion of prelates, universities and other corporate
    communities as by the large popular base.’ [...] Disoriented opponents searched for historical perspective.
    One writer was reminded ominously of 1772, the year of the Somerset case in England and of Virginia's appeal
    for the ending of the slave trade to the colony. More general were the terms thereafter
    applied to popular supporters of abolitionism by distressed defenders of the trade:
    ‘general clamour’, ‘popular emotion’, ‘phrenzy’, ‘fanaticism’, etc. All these terms
    implicitly recognized that the appeal for action was both widely and emotionally
    shared. Published appeals against the new movement almost always acknowledged
    that their own ‘side has scarce found a single defender’.’’

    From the outset the slave interest made no attempt to initiate a broad counterpetition drive
    or to reach beyond their traditional interest network. Over the next
    two decades the slave interest would have ample opportunities to claim that the
    intensity of public feeling had cooled. They would never assert that the public had
    repudiated its origmal judgment. Anti-abolitionists therefore focused their collective
    political energies on pamphleteering, parliamentary lobbying and private appeals to
    sympathetic governmental officials
    In May 1788 the issue of abolition was formally introduced into the house of
    commons as part of an implicit dialogue between parliament and people. Standing in
    for the ill Wilberforce, the prime minister framed his motion as a necessary response
    to ‘the great number and variety of petitions’ that bespoke an engaged public. Pitt
    was powerfully seconded by other luminaries in the House. Charles James Fox and
    Edmund Burke drew attention to the table of the House, loaded with petitions. Fox
    noted that he would have moved for consideration of abolition himself in the absence
    of Wilberforce’s commitment. Public opinion, in its activist sense, had ensured
    parliamentary consideration on both sides of the House.
    Legislative efforts to regulate the Middle Passage arising from the above struggled because the opposition could now sink its teeth into specific proposals, and the House of Lords was opposed by its nature (and diluted the substance by a large measure). William Pitt was opposed in supporting this "Dolben Bill" by his cabinet, and had to threaten to resign to see it through the Commons.

    Further removed from the pressures of public
    opinion, the peers saw no reason to put a hitherto unchallenged component of
    the nation’s commercial and naval supremacy at risk. [...]
    The fate of the Dolben Bill foreshadowed the parliamentary struggle to come.
    During the next 18 years the abolition of the British slave trade would be moved 12
    more times in parliament, but always as an open question not a government measure.
    Twice before 1807 abolition bills would succeed in the Commons only to be stymied
    in the upper house. Before 1806 partial bills for eliminating British transportation of
    slaves to foreign colonies, or from certain parts of the African coast would suffer a
    similar fate in the Lords. Stephen Fuller, the colonial agent for Jamaica, had anticipated
    the situation: ‘The stream of popularity runs against us’, he wrote as early as January
    1788, ‘but I trust nevertheless that common-sense is with us, and that wicked as we
    are when compared with the abolishers, the wisdom and policy of this country will
    protect US.'^'' ‘Common sense’ was institutionalized in the Lords. Until 1806 the peers
    would usually invoke their prerogative of independent examination to prevent the
    abolition bills passed by the Commons from moving on to a definitive vote. Almost
    20 years later abolitionists would have to develop a two-session, two-house, strategy
    to achieve total victory.
    After 1788, "the provincial committee system remained ‘the heart of organized anti-slavery’" and they turned to propagandizing and organizing (important term there) the public and laying groundwork for popular mobilization (which is different than organization) by bringing commoner witnesses to Parliament in the form of sailors and secondhand slave accounts (Negroes were not permitted to testify before the select committee). Women and blacks also began participating visibly in the movement (e.g. Phyllis Wheatley and Olaudah Equiano).

    An observer wrote that the ‘whole committee was in a laugh’,
    and Wilberforce was asked, ‘Will you bring your ship-keepers, ship-sweepers, and
    deck cleaners in competition with our admirals and men of honor?’32
    Parliament stonewalled abolition until Wilberforce introduced a motion in April 1791.

    At the end of the debate a backbencher concisely
    summed up the situation: ‘The leaders, it was true were for the abolition; but the
    minor orators, the pygmies, would, he trusted, carry this day the question against
    them. The property of the West Indians was at stake.’ Abolition was defeated by a
    vote of 163 to 88. Whatever the merits of their argument, Roger Anstey concluded,
    the abolitionists lost resoundingly
    The London Committee resolved to channel future-Bernie Sanders by mobilizing the latent popular sentiment against Parliament, reprioritizing moral over economic facts. Local initiatives were replaced with centralized command and control.

    The agents’ function was to ‘excite the flame’, but
    delay its flaring forth until the mass of petitions could simultaneously converge on
    parliament.4”

    The results far exceeded the committee’s expectations. Even two decades later
    Clarkson’s sober History allowed itself a moment of awe:
    Of the enthusiasm of the nation at this time none can form an opinion but they
    who witnessed it. There never was perhaps a season when so much virtuous feeling
    pervaded all ranks . . , The current ran with such strength and rapidity that it was
    impossible to stem it . . . [No petitions] were ever more numerous, as far as we
    have any record of such transactions . . . The account stood thus. For regulation
    there was one; against all abolition there were four; and for the total abolition of
    the trade five hundred and nineteen.4’
    Seriously, take a break to watch any Sanders campaign ad.

    Upwards of 400,000 names flowed into London just in time for the opening of
    Wilberforce’s second motion. These were probably the largest numbers of both
    petitions and signatures ever simultaneously reaching parliament on a single subject.
    In some parts of the country between a quarter and a third of the adult male population
    petitioned for abolition, with Manchester’s proportion reaching nearly 50 per cent.4
    Polemics could, of course, be matched by opposition propaganda. Signatures could not.
    [...]
    The popular response to the great campaign of 1791-2 indicates that the abolitionists
    requested and received almost unlimited support within the contemporary
    boundaries of legitimate signers. The organizers were clearly less worried about too
    little popular enthusiasm for abolition than too much.
    Mainstream abolitionists became concerned with becoming associated with fellow travelers who wanted full emancipation or equality between races. Many abolitionists claimed they wanted full abolition, but that to propound more than the abolition of the slave trade itself was too extreme for public consumption (lolcentrists). The French Revolution entering its maximalist stage (enjoy) did not calm any nerves.

    Dickson was warned to steer the
    potential petition committees away from any discussion of policy except the most
    general idea, that ‘what is unjust must be impolitick’
    "There are many paths to Medicare for All" - lolcentrists.

    Another thing alarming the leadership was a boycott campaign against slave-grown sugar appealing to the people's power of the purse. (As noted above, women could not sign petitions.)

    Special appeals were directed towards women, as managers of the household budget.
    They stressed women’s sensitivity to family destruction and offered them a means of
    compensating for their exclusion from the petition campaign. Children too were also
    urged, and volunteered, to become part of this national consumer mobilization.
    Although Clarkson privately favoured the anti-saccharite agitation in hopes of
    increasing the turnout for petitions, Wilberforce feared abstention as likely to alienate
    moderates.46
    Hmm... lolcentrists.

    Some abstentionist polemics
    explicitly identified the British legislature, as constituted, as an institution that was
    unlikely to abolish the slave trade. Since parliament had failed to heed the express will
    of the people, the people had to ‘manifest to Europe and the World that public spirit,
    that virtuous abhorrence of SLAVERY, to which a British SENATE is unable - or
    unwilling to aspire’.~’
    The language of this radical voice of abolition resonated with other voices calling
    for fundamental political reform in Britain. In the winter of 1792 the anti-saccharite
    movement appeared to be but one more symptom of many radical challenges
    sweeping across the Atlantic world. [...] The counter-abolitionist strategy broadened to conflate abolitionism not only
    with slave emancipation, but with every potential threat to public order, foreign and domestic.
    You mean, "socialism!!1"
    Ahem - lolconservatives

    The unprecedented pile of sheets on the table in 1792 emboldened some abolitionist
    M.P.s to welcome the charge that schoolboys and people of the lowest status had
    signed on: ‘What did this prove but that individuals of all sorts, conditions and ages,
    young and old, master and scholar, high and low, rich and poor, the risen and the
    rising generation, had unanimously set every nerve on stretch for the overthrow of
    the . . . abominable and the indefensible?
    Hear hear.

    The house of commons voted for gradual abolition by a
    vote of 230 to 85, and for an immediate end to the British trade to foreign colonies.
    By a far smaller margin, the Commons voted to set the date of total abolition at 1796.
    The House of Lords kills it. It's pretty clear by now that preserving slavery, or at least the trade in slaves, was an issue of popular resonance of a kind with tax cuts for the rich today. Are upper chambers inevitably the reactionary enemies of the people?

    So, between 1792 and 1806 there are no more great episodes of public agitation against slavery. Motions for abolition were submitted, and failed, about a dozen times. I assume, and the author concurs, the wars of the coalitions and the general state crackdown on radicalism and reformism in Britain may have had something to do with it. Mass petitioning as a form of public engagement seems to have died during this era, but beneath the surface British national homogenization in the face of the Napoleonic threat propagandized liberty and freedom in a way that associated it naturally with the status of black slaves. The fact that France had reinstituted colonial slavery under the Consulate helped this along. "Britons never never never shall be slaves" and whatnot. Also, white Britons were growing less freaked out by the legacy of the Haitian revolt and were intrigued by the trade opportunities.

    Pitt returned for his last hurrah as PM. Wilberforce introduced yet another abolition motion in mid-1804. It passed. The House of Lords killed it again. Wilberforce lost majority support for his bill in the Commons.

    As Anstey concluded, the victory of 1804 had been deceptive. ‘Enemies had only to exert
    themselves more, and friends less, and the day was lost.
    ’5
    Ain't that the truth, brother.

    Regrouping after the
    unexpected setback, the London committee decided that renewed popular pressure
    was essential to break the stalemate. For the first time since 1792 Clarkson was
    dispatched on another tour to reconnect with the local communities. He reported
    on the relative ignorance of the younger abolitionists but was more struck by a
    widespread welcome that could be turned into activism. The energy of the new
    generation could furnish the movement ‘with endless sources of rallying’.
    As early as 1805 the slave interest protested that the ‘violent’ propaganda being worked up
    Well, if you say so.

    The West India Committee had to revive its dormant propaganda committee.
    Who says the British weren't ahead of their time?

    Now in 1806, the moderates were prominent in the movement once more and proposed only to abolish the British trade to "foreign and conquered colonies". But in fact it was a Trojan Horse for a slippery slope to total abolition of the British slave trade. Robert Peel (the father of the guy you're thinking of) was a prominent opponent; the bill nevertheless passed on wartime economic arguments.

    With the passage of the Foreign Slave Trade Bill in May 1806, attention turned to
    the question of total abolition. Grenville and the abolitionists were aware that they
    had passed the bill on the grounds that it would help the British colonies keep a
    wartime edge over their competitors. Final abolition would have to contradict that
    rationale and return to the original abolitionist grounds of ‘justice and humanity’.~’
    James Stephen urged Grenville to delay the final motion until after the autumn
    general election, so that M.P.s might be ‘instructed by luge bodies of their constituents
    to vote for an abolition of the slave trade’.
    Apparently this worked and - Christ, why does all this feel so modern? Wilberforce, who it should be noted had been an Independent for 20 years by now, got to watch as the 1806 election obliterated 40 years of Tory dominance in Parliament in a landslide (though Cons would once again maintain large majorities from 1812-1831, which is probably very important for British history).

    In the crucial debate in the Commons, on 23 February 1807, the actual margin of victory
    was 283 in favour and only 16 opposed.60
    The ‘noes’ figure is intriguing. In the last previous vote on a total abolition bill in
    1805, a far thinner house had produced 70 votes for abolition and 77 against. Two
    years later, in a House casting twice as many votes, the bill’s opponents could produce
    no more than one-fifth as many votes as they had in 1805.
    Wilberforce was campaigning for total abolition of the trade now, and the author rhetorically asks why opposition to abolition had died out in the Commons. His answer is "the weight of public opinion."

    Liverpool’s General Gascoyne complained that:
    every measure that invention or art could devise to create a popular clamour was
    resorted to on this occasion. The church, the theatre, and the press, had laboured
    to create a prejudice against the Slave Trade . . . The attempts to make a popular
    clamour against the trade were never so conspicuous as during the late Election, when
    the public newspapers teemed with abuse of the trade, and when promises were
    required from different candidates that they would oppose its continuance. There never
    had been any question agitated since that of parliamentary reform, in which so much
    industry had been exerted to raise a popular prejudice and clamour, and to make
    the trade an object of universal detestation. In every manufacturing town and borough
    in the kingdom, all those arts had been tried.61
    'All these damned people in the country believing the same things that inconvenience me and voting on that basis!' Wow, what a conservative. Sure enough, his Wiki page identifies him as an "Ultra-Tory", which was a far-right faction at the time. Now, once the bill made it through the legislature and received royal assent the government promptly collapsed, returning Tories to a slim majority, but the new government could not revoke the law. In what I think might be be an early example of thermostatic public opinion, the success of the antislavery campaign fanned a lot of social discord and

    [i]n Liverpool, rioters terrorized William Roscoe, one of their M.P.s, into withdrawing from politics in 1807 because he had voted for the bill.
    Boo Liverpool, go Manchester.

    In an epilogue on 1814, the author describes how Wilberforce criticized the government's (first) Treaty of Paris ending the Continental War because it relicensed the French slave trade for five years. The London Committee once again reactivated and launch another round of public relations campaigning.

    Once more abolitionists launched the largest petition campaign Britain had ever seen.65
    In some ways it was the most impressive of the entire struggle. Clarkson and some
    quakers threw themselves back into their old routine of co-ordination, now eased
    by many other hands. Begnning in late June, the abolitionists presented parliament
    with 806 petitions before the session ended late in July. Ultimately, a total of
    1,370 petitions arrived, well above the average annual number of all other petitions
    reaching parliament between 181 1 and 1815. At one point abolitionists estimated
    that 750,000 people had signed up. Paul Kielstra has calculated the final total to have
    been 1,375,000
    , although this figure may include petitions sent up to both houses
    of parliament. In any event, for a nation with no more than four million males over
    the age of 16, between a fifth and a third of all those eligible to sign had added their
    names to the appeal.
    Castlereagh’s own evaluation of the campaign was concise: ‘the nation is bent upon
    this object. I believe that there is hardly a village that has not met and petitioned.’
    The duke of Wellington registered a similar impression on his way back to France
    to renegotiate the slave trade article: ‘I was not aware till I had been some time here
    [London] of the degree of frenzy existing here about the slave trade. People in general
    appear to think that it would suit the policy of this nation to go to war to put an end
    to that abominable traffic.’”
    When Clarkson wrote of the petitions, ‘All England is moving’, he could finally
    claim that this opinion was as close as Britons might ever get to consensus. Had he
    chosen to update his History in 1814, he might well have summed up public opinion
    as: in favour of revision, 1,370 petitions; against, nil.
    Crucially, even the West Indies interests had come around to supporting abolition, after having been such fierce opponents for a generation. Another process familiar to our contemporary relationship to capitalist industry.

    The author concludes:

    With this great surge of petitioning, abolition moved beyond registering a protest
    against an article in a peace treaty. It definitively launched Britain into a long-term
    international moral and political campaign against the transatlantic slave trade. It was
    a pioneering development in the link being forged between the terms of public
    discourse and the mobilization of public opinion. In the course of a single generation
    abolition had evolved from the programme of an innovative public contender into
    a settled fixture of national policy. The first great reform movement to revive
    after the general eclipse of the 1790s, its power was successively ratified in legislative
    victories and governmental policy. By 1814 abolitionism had spawned the first human
    rights organization and altered the world’s perspective on the future of slavery as an
    institution.69


    In case you missed it, this is the time to read up on the concepts of "mobilizing" and "organizing" the public in mass politics. It's, uh, kind of what we need to overthrow conservative and monied interests in Western societies today.
    Last edited by Montmorency; 10-07-2019 at 09:46.
    Vitiate Man.

    History repeats the old conceits
    The glib replies, the same defeats


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



  29. #179
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK Politics Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    In case you missed it, this is the time to read up on the concepts of "mobilizing" and "organizing" the public in mass politics. It's, uh, kind of what we need to overthrow conservative and monied interests in Western societies today.
    They're already familiar with it. See Jon Lansman (Momentum-Labour) and Dominic Cummings (Brexit). It's a matter of devising lies for the target audience and disseminating it via unmoderated and untracked social media. Once you have that, you'll have a core following that will do your bidding no matter what happens or what you say and do. They will always parrot the decisive argument, "the will of the people".

  30. #180
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK Politics Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    They're already familiar with it. See Jon Lansman (Momentum-Labour) and Dominic Cummings (Brexit). It's a matter of devising lies for the target audience and disseminating it via unmoderated and untracked social media. Once you have that, you'll have a core following that will do your bidding no matter what happens or what you say and do. They will always parrot the decisive argument, "the will of the people".
    And you are doing a pretty good with that.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
    Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
    "If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
    If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter. Winston Churchill

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