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Thread: Trump Thread

  1. #2641

    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    Someone asked me today - "Why would Trump do this? What was he trying to achieve?"

    I opined that he was probably trying to remove this particular Iranian general who has been a thorn in the side of the West for decades and in this he had been successful, and to look for any deeper thinking on Trump's part was probably a mistake.

    This is one of those circumstances where we tend to see things a certain way but which history may view differently. The general was, we must remember, in Iraq meeting with dissident militia commanders and Iraq is a US ally - or puppet.

    On balance, I would say his assassination will be a net positive for America, but it must be acknowledged that Trump in engaging in a "race to the bottom" where America is starting to use the tactics previous employed by Russia albeit openly and with an air of impunity.
    There may be good reasons prior administrations declined to kill this man. The capacity to do so was never in question.

    As for Iraq being our ally, I doubt our having blown up Suleimani at Baghdad airport is looked upon favorably by anyone (except maybe Saudi Arabia). There's probably a reason Iraqi security forces allowed protesters to breach the US embassy perimeter. Maybe we're just adding reasons.

    American foreign policy under Trump in a nutshell:

    Vitiate Man.

    History repeats the old conceits
    The glib replies, the same defeats


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  2. #2642
    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    Horses mouth:
    So Trump, all options exhausted, is going to go to war with Iran to stop them getting Nuclear weapons and taking over the second largest oil reserves in the world?

    Or am I just supposed to pay attention to the part where he talks about Obama needing to get reelected and ignore the rest?

    See - this is why links require commentary - you can't just fling them out and expect other people to understand your position. Looked at objectively those clips seem to suggest Trump's ultimate, final, plan for Iran was always war - making thisn his opening gambit designed to provoke Iran into attacking the US directly and hence triggering a shooting war with NATO.

    Makes Trump look like a genius.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."

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  3. #2643

    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    So Trump, all options exhausted, is going to go to war with Iran to stop them getting Nuclear weapons and taking over the second largest oil reserves in the world?

    Or am I just supposed to pay attention to the part where he talks about Obama needing to get reelected and ignore the rest?

    See - this is why links require commentary - you can't just fling them out and expect other people to understand your position. Looked at objectively those clips seem to suggest Trump's ultimate, final, plan for Iran was always war - making thisn his opening gambit designed to provoke Iran into attacking the US directly and hence triggering a shooting war with NATO.

    Makes Trump look like a genius.
    Huh?

    It doesn't take a genius to go to war as an American president - you just do it. Bush wasn't a genius.

    Our ostensible allies (outside Saudi Arabia and Israel) already agree that we're the aggressors, so it's unclear how much pretext they would have to support us militarily even if they wanted to (which they don't).
    Vitiate Man.

    History repeats the old conceits
    The glib replies, the same defeats


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  4. #2644
    Ja mata, TosaInu Forum Administrator edyzmedieval's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    European Union members / NATO members that overlap will not support a war, that's very clear.
    Ja mata, TosaInu. You will forever be remembered.

    Proud

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    Swords Made of Letters - 1938. The war is looming in France - and Alexandre Reythier does not have much time left to protect his country. A novel set before the war.

    A Painted Shield of Honour - 1313. Templar Knights in France are in grave danger. Can they be saved?

  5. #2645
    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by edyzmedieval View Post
    European Union members / NATO members that overlap will not support a war, that's very clear.
    They may not have a choice.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."

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  6. #2646
    Ja mata, TosaInu Forum Administrator edyzmedieval's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    They will, no one wants to go in a war with Iran. Nobody.

    On top of that, Iran has the 14th most powerful military in the world, so any attempt (yes, just the attempt) of a war is gonna be extremely costly in all terms.
    Ja mata, TosaInu. You will forever be remembered.

    Proud

    Been to:

    Swords Made of Letters - 1938. The war is looming in France - and Alexandre Reythier does not have much time left to protect his country. A novel set before the war.

    A Painted Shield of Honour - 1313. Templar Knights in France are in grave danger. Can they be saved?

  7. #2647
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    They may not have a choice.
    Why not? We left the EU because we were being dictated to by other countries, didn't we?

  8. #2648
    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by edyzmedieval View Post
    They will, no one wants to go in a war with Iran. Nobody.

    On top of that, Iran has the 14th most powerful military in the world, so any attempt (yes, just the attempt) of a war is gonna be extremely costly in all terms.
    On papa Iran has a large army, and it's likely to be well motivated - better than Saddam's in 1991. However, their Air Force is a full generation or more behind the American one and they have no Navy to speak of. A shooting war would begin with a comprehensive bombing campaign and air war that eliminated Iran's remaining air forces, missile forces, rail network and munitions dumps in that order. By the time the American and Iranian armed forces came to grips with each other the latter would be suffering major supply shortages and comprehensive lack of support.

    America is very good at prosecuting a conventional war, it's asymmetric warfare they struggle with.

    As to invoking the NATO charter - it depends on whether Iran escalates as they've threatened to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    Why not? We left the EU because we were being dictated to by other countries, didn't we?
    Are we proposing to leave NATO?
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."

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  9. #2649
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    Are we proposing to leave NATO?
    What has this to do with NATO?

  10. #2650
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    What has this to do with NATO?
    You replied to my comment which was a reply to Edzy.

    NATO is America's alliance of its vassals where it uses said vassals to legitimise its wars, been that way for decades.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."

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  11. #2651

    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    Are we proposing to leave NATO?
    What would stop NATO members from contributing token forces according to their view of the direction and degree of aggression between parties?

    If someone thinks Turkey, for example, will subject itself to a ground war with Iran for Trump's sake, they've got another thing coming.
    Vitiate Man.

    History repeats the old conceits
    The glib replies, the same defeats


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  12. #2652
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    You replied to my comment which was a reply to Edzy.

    NATO is America's alliance of its vassals where it uses said vassals to legitimise its wars, been that way for decades.
    How does the UK not have a choice? If we don't have a choice because we're in NATO, will you and others be campaigning to leave NATO? After all, foreign countries telling us what to do was why we left the EU. Does the sovereignty argument not apply when it's Washington ordering us around?

  13. #2653
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    What would stop NATO members from contributing token forces according to their view of the direction and degree of aggression between parties?

    If someone thinks Turkey, for example, will subject itself to a ground war with Iran for Trump's sake, they've got another thing coming.
    NATO members aren't obliged to join in anyway. The treaty applies to North America and Europe.

  14. #2654
    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    I am suprised the man was stupid enough to leave Iran considering how much of a high value target he was. The timing is rather opportune as well; coming in so soon after the Iranian uprising.
    Being better than the worst does not inherently make you good. But being better than the rest lets you brag.


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  15. #2655
    Member Member Crandar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    It's basically his job to be out of Iran. He has made several public appearances in Syria and Iraq before.

  16. #2656
    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Head of the Iranian millitary, while also coordinating any number of insurgencies? Its a wonder he wasnt killed sooner if personally running about in enemy territory is a requirement.
    Being better than the worst does not inherently make you good. But being better than the rest lets you brag.


    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
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  17. #2657
    Member Member Crandar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    He's not the head of the Iranian military, but the head of a branch (Quds force) of a branch (Revolutionary Guards) of the army that was specialised in foreign operations.

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  18. #2658
    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    How does the UK not have a choice? If we don't have a choice because we're in NATO, will you and others be campaigning to leave NATO? After all, foreign countries telling us what to do was why we left the EU. Does the sovereignty argument not apply when it's Washington ordering us around?
    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    NATO members aren't obliged to join in anyway. The treaty applies to North America and Europe.
    If Iran retaliates by, say, launching a cyber attack on the US National Grid, shuts down the Eastern Seaboard and people die - that will be considered an attack against NATO. Likewise, if Iran launches assassinations of US military personnel in Europe that will be considered an attack against NATO.

    If the US invokes Article Five then the European nations will have no choice but to go along because without the US we cannot collectively oppose Russia - certain key members are not meeting their basic commitments, and others are about to be kicked out.

    Hence "no choice".

    This is completely different to the EU, which is a political project that the majority of voters rejected - i.e. federalisation.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."

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  19. #2659
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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  20. #2660

    Default Re: Trump Thread

    So, Trump has threatened war crimes against Iran, which I'm sure will be persuasive in gaining the support of NATO allies.

    Meanwhile, the Iraqi government is demanding all US forces out of Iraq.

    Iraqi parliament calls for US troops to be expelled —coalition suspends operations against ISIS

    Quote Originally Posted by Crandar View Post
    It's basically his job to be out of Iran. He has made several public appearances in Syria and Iraq before.
    Yeah, his was not a desk job.

    He wasn't killed before because that would have been a serious and unmistakable act of war (i.e. imprudent).

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    If Iran retaliates by, say, launching a cyber attack on the US National Grid, shuts down the Eastern Seaboard and people die - that will be considered an attack against NATO. Likewise, if Iran launches assassinations of US military personnel in Europe that will be considered an attack against NATO.

    If the US invokes Article Five then the European nations will have no choice but to go along because without the US we cannot collectively oppose Russia - certain key members are not meeting their basic commitments, and others are about to be kicked out.

    Hence "no choice".

    This is completely different to the EU, which is a political project that the majority of voters rejected - i.e. federalisation.
    "Cool. Have a logistics battalion, Yanks."

    The implication of a military alliance demanding total commitment is of course a greater cession of sovereignty than economic integration.

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    An unhelpful framework IMO. Rather:

    People like you are still living in what we call the reality-based community. You believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality. That’s not the way the world really works anymore. We’re an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you are studying that reality—judiciously, as you will—we’ll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that’s how things will sort out. We’re history’s actors, and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do.

    Karl Rove, attributed, 2004
    But I did not write this post because I wanted to offer my opinions about al-Soleimani and American Middle East policy and strategy. There are too many opinions. Many of them are totally useless. And others, even if voiced with great sincerity and erudition, are besides the point regardless. My excavation of the al-Solomeini affair’s context is only the backdrop for my underlying gripe: that we are analyzing any of this with the pretense of seriousness when we have known for some time that President Trump is pathologically unserious. His psychological profile – known to all of us prior to him becoming President – suggests he is incapable of being constrained by reality and will not take responsibility for any of his behaviors. His political profile – evident from the 2016 presidential campaign onwards – suggests his primary aim is to dominate the domestic public space in American politics and by design will tolerate or even cause frequent instability, abrupt policy shifts, baroque palace intrigues, and other quirks of his unique combination of reality TV politics and personalist governance. This has significant domestic consequences, but in the realm of foreign policy and national security it has far more sweeping implications. You see, Trump has a reality distortion field (RDF) that allows him to skillfully shape events in American politics. You do not have to like him to respect his ability to do so. It is what allowed him to become President despite the opposition of both the Republican and Democratic party establishments, even if that opposition was also inept, inconsistent, and weak. You do not have to approve of his actions to understand that something within him made him the man of our particular hour or note that the unique species “Homo Trumpicus” seems to be well-adapted to our current political ecosystem.

    Still, it must be said: Trump’s RDF only operates domestically. The farther away one travels from American borders, the weaker the RDF gets. By the time one reaches the assault rifle or IED of a Middle Eastern militiaman, the RDF is nonexistent. But the Middle Eastern militiaman’s behavior is an nonetheless an input to the American domestic system that Trump lords over. And we know that the President and his men are unlikely to respond to such inputs in any way other than what we have repeatedly seen since January 2017. That is, sheer pandemonium. Its impossible to fully enumerate why but I will again make the futile attempt to provide a partially useful summary. The White House is a pirate ship of feuding personal and bureaucratic factions, all of which leak sensitive information promiscuously to the mass media. The President, primus inter pares among his collection of warlords, bandits, and princelings, presides over the chaos when he is not watching TV and shotgunning 12 cans of Diet Coke a day. Typical bureaucratic structures designed for national security policy decision have been hollowed in favor of personal channels, often corresponding as much to the President’s personal financial interests as they do to any publicly declared goal he ostensibly pursues. And as demonstrated by the case of the unfortunate General Flynn it is clear that a good portion of his aides are similarly freelancing, perhaps for multiple foreign and domestic interests. The President hires and fires key cabinet officials like a Hollywood starlet picking up and discarding boyfriends, preventing the building of long-term rapport with any one particular figure. Perhaps foreshadowed by his notorious habit of not paying contractors in private life, the President ultimately owes loyalty to no one but expects absolute loyalty and deference in return. Impulsive decisions by the President – often announced via social media – send his subordinates scrambling to adjust policy and implement them, only for the President to often forget them later and move on.

    Worse still, many Trump decisions are slow-walked or even ignored and disobeyed outright, leaving some portions of the government operating more or less autonomously from political control. Even though many of the commands generated by unpredictable firings of synapses in the President’s Diet Coke-addled brain are nonsensical, outrageous, or even insane they are nonetheless lawful orders that must be obeyed. In thwarting his will, Trump’s subordinates go beyond what prior civil servants have done in response to the madness of Richard Nixon and other psychologically (and physiologically) unstable presidents, lending credence to the President’s dark allegations that a “deep state” is out to get him. If the President’s subordinates ignore and undermine his will, he in turn ignores their counsel in favor of insights from network TV shows he obsessively watches. It is said that Ronald Reagan had a “cinematic” style of governance, but the President at heart believes he is a TV character and that the ultimate measure of his performance is how well it plays on TV. The results of this fixation in the national security realm range from comedic to terrifying. We can laugh at the President’s angry tweeting during the 2017-2018 North Korea crisis. But it is much less humorous to observe that the President flew into a rage when he was told that the South Koreans would not move their capital from Seoul and had to be talked out of withdrawing American civilians from the Korean peninsula – a step that would almost certainly be interpreted by the North Koreans as a prelude to war. Trump would not be dissuaded from the course of action, but as his wont eventually dropped it after a fusillade of empty bluster. Secretary of Defense James Mattis, as is the habit of officials during the Trump administration, ignored and thwarted the lawful authority of the President rather than implementing it during this crisis. At least if reports are to be believed, because accounts of the President’s national security decision-making come from large numbers of “officials not authorized to speak on the record” or “individuals with knowledge of the situation.” Anonymous sources.

    [...]

    When analysts do not trust the President they trust that there are others around him who can moderate, shape, or otherwise direct his tendencies in a certain orderly fashion and impose discipline. This has never been particularly true and – given that Trump has done away with many of the more moderate and established figures of the cabinet – it is far less true today. And in some cases, bizarrely enough, the “adults in the room” have been even more out of touch than the President himself. H.R. McMaster, one such figure expected to guide the President, ended up arguing dubiously for military strikes on North Korea out of the even more dubious presumption that the North Koreans could not be deterred. If individual officials can moderate the President, cumulatively the pandemonium of the administration’s competing personalities and factions negates the benefits of their moderation. And yet, analysts nonetheless seem to persistently tie their hopes to the administration being able to do what it cannot: consistently make responsible national security decisions. For sure, it would be unfair and delusional to blame all of this on Trump himself. He has inherited decades of flawed, compromised, and otherwise difficult policy situations. In many cases he has simply accelerated what otherwise was a slow rot. In some cases he is unfairly blamed merely for highlighting that the rot existed to begin with. And it can be hard to argue that Trumpian chaos and frivolity is uniquely bad when non-Trumpian order and seriousness has brought catastrophe. That being said, the President bears ultimate responsibility for actions taken under his time in office. Quite literally, it is the price of command.

    [...]

    Each analysis of a core national security decision by the administration will very likely in some way ultimately lead back to the same abhorrent conclusion: that the analyst has devoted far more brainpower towards interpreting a Trump behavior than Trump has in formulating and executing it, that the entire thing is just another episode of the Donald Trump Show, and that we are all hostages to his stochastic narcissism. This is not always true, but is true enough to be one of the few reliable constants of the Trump years. Hence it is understandable that analysts would resist acknowledgement of the situation that confronts them and attempt to persist as if they could dispassionately and professionally evaluate national security policies, strategies, and tactics the way they always have. The alternative is too radically divergent and painful to fully accept.

    [...]

    During the height of the Bush II administration, Karl Rove is alleged to have said some version of the “we’re an empire now” monologue quoted at the beginning of this post. Setting aside the contentious debate about whether or not Rove – or anyone, really – ever said those words, it seems rather obvious to me that the Trump administration is the apotheosis of what they signify. This requires some further elaboration. If you interpret the Rove pseudo-quote literally, it seems insane. No single administration can control reality! George W. Bush could not simply just tap in the Konami Code and get whatever he wanted!

    But the statement is best interpreted the way we interpret Jean Baudrillard’s infamous claim that the Gulf War did not take place. This too is a seemingly bizarre and nonsensical claim that becomes more legible with careful re-reading. The Cold War, Baudrillard observed, was as much conducted via simulations of conflicts that never occurred as it was by actual blood and force of arms. Therefore, it is not particularly surprising that the first Gulf War was rehearsed as a simulation, implemented for the viewing public as a simulation, and consumed in the same manner one might binge-watch a TV show. So we should look at the Rove pseudo-quote in a similar fashion. Let us now return to what Rove supposedly said in 2004. What Rove is “really” saying is that people who “study” mind-independent external reality are suckers. The epistemological equivalent of a Warner Bros cartoon villain building an elaborate (and comically flawed) trap to catch an elusive prey, they attempt in vain to analyze and interpret the news of the day and impose linearity and rationality on what is neither straightforward or rational. And just as soon as they are done doing so, another event occurs that overturns their analysis of the prior event and forces them to once again restart their analysis from scratch. They are passive, forever reacting to a stream of novel stimuli that they must force into fragile and rigid mental models that collapse as soon as they are constructed

    [...]

    And this, as Henry Farrell argued in 2016, is exactly what Donald J. Trump aspires towards as a politician. To force everyone to react to events he sets into motion, even when they are themselves opportunistic and impulsive reactions to events outside of his control. To keep on analyzing these eruptions and disruptions is mostly to grant this grotesque circus an air of dignity, nobility, and sobriety it does not deserve. This is true of domestic politics, and I see no reason why foreign policy and national security is any different or should be treated any differently. This poses a problem for analysts of all kinds, but particularly defense and security analysts. It gets tiring to say “this is the chaotic and muddled product of a chaotic and muddled administration” over and over again. It negates their unique and hard-earned currencies of expertise. It renders them just another group of people shouting in the cacophonous din of the Trump years, just more noise that can be ignored without much consequence. But this is far better than the fate that awaits those that insist on trying to impose normalizing assumptions on what is profoundly abnormal.

    [...]

    In many cases, analysts quite literally retreated into analysis of fantasy worlds because dealing with the world as it is today is too great of a burden. Fiction provides order and structure when reality itself feels fictional. If one cannot analyze the fever dream that passes for American national security policy, one can at least argue about how a fictional general ought to have deployed dragons or Star Destroyers. There is, after all, ample precedent too for that. The historian and cultural theorist Johan Huizinga argued that the late medieval court responded to the increasing savagery and disorder of the world outside by immersing itself in chivalric romanticism and expressions of nostalgia. However, this is not enough. At some point we have to at least momentarily abandon the comfort of childish things and put down the action figures, comic books, and video game controllers to deal with the harsh realities of the adult world. And one of the harshest realities of the adult world is traditionally the child’s realization that the adults themselves are no better than – and are frequently worse than – children. The recognition that the adults will not be coming to the child’s rescue – in part because they cannot be trusted to behave responsibly or benignly – is the basis for the child learning to cope with the world as it is, not as the child wishes it to be. This is not a task that ever naturally stops, it only ceases upon the moment of death.
    Vitiate Man.

    History repeats the old conceits
    The glib replies, the same defeats


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



  21. #2661
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Crandar View Post
    He's not the head of the Iranian military, but the head of a branch (Quds force) of a branch (Revolutionary Guards) of the army that was specialised in foreign operations.
    The RG are parallel to the nation-state military in Iran. They have their own force structure and, often enough, their own agenda. They do not strictly conform to the dictates and direction of the current elected government. The RG are their own separate military of sorts as well as handling foreign insurgencies and support for guerillas/terrorists/theocratical fellow-travelers and the like. I tend to think of them as being a bit like the NKVD.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken

  22. #2662
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    If Iran retaliates by, say, launching a cyber attack on the US National Grid, shuts down the Eastern Seaboard and people die - that will be considered an attack against NATO. Likewise, if Iran launches assassinations of US military personnel in Europe that will be considered an attack against NATO.

    If the US invokes Article Five then the European nations will have no choice but to go along because without the US we cannot collectively oppose Russia - certain key members are not meeting their basic commitments, and others are about to be kicked out.

    Hence "no choice".

    This is completely different to the EU, which is a political project that the majority of voters rejected - i.e. federalisation.
    I do not think we have the "smoking gun" needed for an article 5 against Iran. We'd have to show Iranian material support for a terrorist organization that directly attacked one of the member states. Such evidence might exist, but...
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  23. #2663
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    If Iran retaliates by, say, launching a cyber attack on the US National Grid, shuts down the Eastern Seaboard and people die - that will be considered an attack against NATO. Likewise, if Iran launches assassinations of US military personnel in Europe that will be considered an attack against NATO.

    If the US invokes Article Five then the European nations will have no choice but to go along because without the US we cannot collectively oppose Russia - certain key members are not meeting their basic commitments, and others are about to be kicked out.

    Hence "no choice".

    This is completely different to the EU, which is a political project that the majority of voters rejected - i.e. federalisation.
    Has there been any evidence that that will happen? I suppose if Iran makes Sol go supernova, then it would count as affecting North America and Europe too.

    Also, isn't NATO a defensive alliance?

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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    lol

    https://twitter.com/Mustafa_salimb/s...22979882143744

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  25. #2665
    Member Member Crandar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Cheeto in chief bombed the envoy that participated in an effort to deescalate a middle eastern conflict. Totally not a rogue state the US, just a Muslim terrorist terminated.

  26. #2666
    Ja mata, TosaInu Forum Administrator edyzmedieval's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    As we get more information about the circumstances, it becomes even mind boggling why this was done.
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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post

    An unhelpful framework IMO. Rather:
    entertainingly, i have followed adam aelkus for what must be nearly a decade now.

    on the comment itself - i'm not sure i agree that it is unhelpful. yes, he tears down elements of process he doesn't like, but what i think i provided just how much 'deep' state process there is to wade through. i don't think its as rootin' tootin' as steve bannon tweeting trump with the message; "we can bag a big one if you're game for it?"
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  28. #2668

    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    entertainingly, i have followed adam aelkus for what must be nearly a decade now.

    on the comment itself - i'm not sure i agree that it is unhelpful. yes, he tears down elements of process he doesn't like, but what i think i provided just how much 'deep' state process there is to wade through. i don't think its as rootin' tootin' as steve bannon tweeting trump with the message; "we can bag a big one if you're game for it?"
    Nice.

    The bottom line is that the White House (Trump, and his administration) is not a coherent or rational actor, so a standard analysis in terms of institutional Courses of Action and risk calculi is neither descriptive nor predictive of observed behaviors (going back to the beginning).

    For all we can speculate Trump did this because he wanted to, in his mind, look tough compared to Jimmy Carter. That is, with no consideration of how this would affect any larger strategy toward Iran because there is no Iran strategy, just a series of "hyperreal" media events.
    Last edited by Montmorency; 01-06-2020 at 00:39.
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  29. #2669
    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Crandar View Post
    He's not the head of the Iranian military, but the head of a branch (Quds force) of a branch (Revolutionary Guards) of the army that was specialised in foreign operations.
    Technically correct, the man was however the most influential 2 star general in the revolutionary guard; the equivalent of the SS or comissariat, politically second only to the ayatolla. I also get the impression the Quds are also the only part of the Iranian millitary with recent combat experience, much of it supporting groups that are currently making american forces lives difficult.

    Combined with personally taunting the god emperor (Gee, could it be I'm joking?) the man must have known he had a target on his forhead, making it foolish he was personally running about near a bagdad airport.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crandar View Post
    Cheeto in chief bombed the envoy that participated in an effort to deescalate a middle eastern conflict. Totally not a rogue state the US, just a Muslim terrorist terminated.
    He wasnt some well intentioned diplomat, he was the coordinator of shia insurgents and millitias in the middle east, many of which are outright terrorists.
    Last edited by Greyblades; 01-06-2020 at 06:03.
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  30. #2670
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by edyzmedieval View Post
    As we get more information about the circumstances, it becomes even mind boggling why this was done.
    To distract everybody from the impeachment ruckus?
    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
    The article exists for a reason yes, I did not write it...

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