Results 1 to 30 of 66

Thread: And now the next kerfuffle - the Labour Leadership

Hybrid View

Previous Post Previous Post   Next Post Next Post
  1. #1
    Ja mata, TosaInu Forum Administrator edyzmedieval's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Fortress of the Mountains
    Posts
    11,441

    Default Re: And now the next kerfuffle - the Labour Leadership

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    So, I read that entire article. The author seems extremely harsh on both sides, and it's worth noting that they reduce both to being essentially morally bankrupt husks. It reads very much like a "call to action" for the moderate Left and centre-Left.
    Which is a sensible way of putting it - instead of having extremists on both ends capture the majorities, we need the moderate centre of which many are part of to also take part in the political process.
    Ja mata, TosaInu. You will forever be remembered.

    Proud

    Been to:

    Swords Made of Letters - 1938. The war is looming in France - and Alexandre Reythier does not have much time left to protect his country. A novel set before the war.

    A Painted Shield of Honour - 1313. Templar Knights in France are in grave danger. Can they be saved?

  2. #2
    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Isca
    Posts
    13,477

    Default Re: And now the next kerfuffle - the Labour Leadership

    Quote Originally Posted by edyzmedieval View Post
    Which is a sensible way of putting it - instead of having extremists on both ends capture the majorities, we need the moderate centre of which many are part of to also take part in the political process.
    True, although if people refuse to mobalise there's not a lot you can do. Boris Johnson is really a centre-right politician who has pivoted more to the right because that's where the votes are - rather like Mitt Rommey in 2012. That being said, if Labour continue towards the hard left the Conservatives will become more moderate as people turned off from Labour gravitate to the "other" party and exert an intellectual gravity that drags them back to the centre. Eventually Labour will either concede to a new, more moderate, left-wing party or they will become more moderate themselves.

    Ramsey Macdonald and Clem Attlee must be ashamed, though.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."

    [IMG]https://img197.imageshack.us/img197/4917/logoromans23pd.jpg[/IMG]

  3. #3
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Forever adrift
    Posts
    5,958

    Default Re: And now the next kerfuffle - the Labour Leadership

    Quote Originally Posted by edyzmedieval View Post
    Which is a sensible way of putting it - instead of having extremists on both ends capture the majorities, we need the moderate centre of which many are part of to also take part in the political process.
    which is what FPTP is supposed to achieve, because you can't achieve power without appealing broadly across the geographic and political divide.
    the 'common ground' in short (which is a different thing to the centre ground).
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

  4. #4
    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Albion
    Posts
    15,930
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default Re: And now the next kerfuffle - the Labour Leadership

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    which is what FPTP is supposed to achieve, because you can't achieve power without appealing broadly across the geographic and political divide.
    the 'common ground' in short (which is a different thing to the centre ground).
    Unfortunately it is supposed. In practice, it is the largest minority ruling.

    This is where a system like STV would come into play, as you need to reach a threshold of votes and also allows people to state their preferences more distinctly.

    So for example, the person voting for the Brexit party who won't win may view the Conservatives as an alternative. Therefore, those who feel the same would have a transfer of votes to them and having a better reflection of the population (ie: that candidate represents lets say 42% of the area now, rather than 34%). Similar to the ideological aligned/pact of Greens & LibDems. It also helps reduce tactical voting as people are more likely to vote for the person/party who more closely represents their views, without feeling it has been 'wasted'.
    Last edited by Beskar; 01-29-2020 at 20:23.
    Days since the Apocalypse began
    "We are living in space-age times but there's too many of us thinking with stone-age minds" | How to spot a Humanist
    "Men of Quality do not fear Equality." | "Belief doesn't change facts. Facts, if you are reasonable, should change your beliefs."

    Members thankful for this post (2):



  5. #5
    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Isca
    Posts
    13,477

    Default Re: And now the next kerfuffle - the Labour Leadership

    Interestingly, 14388 votes on the Telegraph website but Stammer and Long-Bailey level on 42%

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/202...rophic-defeat/
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."

    [IMG]https://img197.imageshack.us/img197/4917/logoromans23pd.jpg[/IMG]

  6. #6
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Forever adrift
    Posts
    5,958

    Default Re: And now the next kerfuffle - the Labour Leadership

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    Unfortunately it is supposed. In practice, it is the largest minority ruling.

    This is where a system like STV would come into play, as you need to reach a threshold of votes and also allows people to state their preferences more distinctly.

    So for example, the person voting for the Brexit party who won't win may view the Conservatives as an alternative. Therefore, those who feel the same would have a transfer of votes to them and having a better reflection of the population (ie: that candidate represents lets say 42% of the area now, rather than 34%). Similar to the ideological aligned/pact of Greens & LibDems. It also helps reduce tactical voting as people are more likely to vote for the person/party who more closely represents their views, without feeling it has been 'wasted'.
    i accept this benefit, but id want to weigh stv against my dislike of coalition politics.
    i like a majoritarian electoral system (different from majoritarian government), and would reject systems greatly encourage that outcome.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

  7. #7
    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Albion
    Posts
    15,930
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default Re: And now the next kerfuffle - the Labour Leadership

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    i like a majoritarian electoral system (different from majoritarian government), and would reject systems greatly encourage that outcome.
    Are you able to explain this a little better for me?

    If I am understanding you correctly, you like this (which is different from this), and therefore you reject any systems which greatly encourage this.

    If I understood you correctly, are you able explore your views of the criticisms?



    As a side-note, I kind of see Majoritarian Democracy as what Marx meant by Tyranny of the Proletariat. ie: The workers have full control as they outnumber the bourgeoisie. In a very simplistic way.
    Last edited by Beskar; 01-31-2020 at 00:26.
    Days since the Apocalypse began
    "We are living in space-age times but there's too many of us thinking with stone-age minds" | How to spot a Humanist
    "Men of Quality do not fear Equality." | "Belief doesn't change facts. Facts, if you are reasonable, should change your beliefs."

  8. #8
    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Isca
    Posts
    13,477

    Default Re: And now the next kerfuffle - the Labour Leadership

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    Are you able to explain this a little better for me?

    If I am understanding you correctly, you like this (which is different from this), and therefore you reject any systems which greatly encourage this.

    If I understood you correctly, are you able explore your views of the criticisms?



    As a side-note, I kind of see Majoritarian Democracy as what Marx meant by Tyranny of the Proletariat. ie: The workers have full control as they outnumber the bourgeoisie. In a very simplistic way.
    Well, the best system of government is a benign but competent Tyrant, as originally expounded by Aristotle and demonstrated by Terry Pratchett. So, anything else is a compromise designed to prevent the ascension of a malign Tyrant.

    It's worth noting that recent elections, whilst not necessarily returning MP's with absolute majorities have tended to reflect the national mood. We threw Labour out in 2010 but were only lukewarm on Cameron whilst quite enchanted with Clegg - result was a Lib-Dem Coalition. In 2015 we were ready to give David Cameron an actual working majority after he legislated for something like a Living Wage and homosexual marriage. In 2017 a lot of us felt Theresa May was the wrong person for the job but even more so didn't want Corbyn - Hung Parliament with minority Conservative Government. Then, 2019 a lot of people a sick and./or afraid of Corbyn, his hypocrisy, his racism and his general incompetence whilst Boris Johnson is offering higher wages, lower taxes and an end to Brexit.

    Result: Thundering Conservative Majority.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."

    [IMG]https://img197.imageshack.us/img197/4917/logoromans23pd.jpg[/IMG]

  9. #9

    Default Re: And now the next kerfuffle - the Labour Leadership

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    It's worth noting that recent elections, whilst not necessarily returning MP's with absolute majorities have tended to reflect the national mood. We threw Labour out in 2010 but were only lukewarm on Cameron whilst quite enchanted with Clegg - result was a Lib-Dem Coalition. In 2015 we were ready to give David Cameron an actual working majority after he legislated for something like a Living Wage and homosexual marriage. In 2017 a lot of us felt Theresa May was the wrong person for the job but even more so didn't want Corbyn - Hung Parliament with minority Conservative Government. Then, 2019 a lot of people a sick and./or afraid of Corbyn, his hypocrisy, his racism and his general incompetence whilst Boris Johnson is offering higher wages, lower taxes and an end to Brexit.

    Result: Thundering Conservative Majority.
    The flaw in the "national mood" story is that the difference between a hung parliament and a thundering majority is 5% of the vote.

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    In short:
    I recognise that society must change, which means it must move outside of the experience of the status quo. because, events!
    Because we are moving outside the status quo in response to events, i don't want public policy defined by the 'argument' the competing parties have in their understanding of each other.
    It limits the range of change into too small a bandwidth.
    I agree in principle but, uh - so you are a radical!
    Vitiate Man.

    History repeats the old conceits
    The glib replies, the same defeats


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Member thankful for this post:



  10. #10
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Forever adrift
    Posts
    5,958

    Default Re: And now the next kerfuffle - the Labour Leadership

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    Are you able to explain this a little better for me?

    If I am understanding you correctly, you like this (which is different from this), and therefore you reject any systems which greatly encourage this.

    If I understood you correctly, are you able explore your views of the criticisms?



    As a side-note, I kind of see Majoritarian Democracy as what Marx meant by Tyranny of the Proletariat. ie: The workers have full control as they outnumber the bourgeoisie. In a very simplistic way.
    In short:
    I recognise that society must change, which means it must move outside of the experience of the status quo. because, events!
    Because we are moving outside the status quo in response to events, i don't want public policy defined by the 'argument' the competing parties have in their understanding of each other.
    It limits the range of change into too small a bandwidth.

    What i see a majoritiarian electoral system giving me is radical policy (even if it is occasionally radical in the opposite direction to my preference).
    Fail quickly, fail fast.
    Adapt and thrive, fail and stagnate.

    As a side effect of having to have the coalition in place before the election (within the party), it encourages the platform to be as wide as possible in order to appeal to an election winning common-ground as well as their voter heartlands. Where consensual systems lead to the coalition after the election (between parties), allowing manifesto's to be ejected, success/failure criteria difficult to establish, and permissive of fringe parties well outside the common ground to succeed, and be a part of policy making.

    There's lots of good things about proportional/consensual politics, but lots of failings too.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

    Members thankful for this post (2):



  11. #11
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    7,978

    Default Re: And now the next kerfuffle - the Labour Leadership

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    In short:
    I recognise that society must change, which means it must move outside of the experience of the status quo. because, events!
    Because we are moving outside the status quo in response to events, i don't want public policy defined by the 'argument' the competing parties have in their understanding of each other.
    It limits the range of change into too small a bandwidth.

    What i see a majoritiarian electoral system giving me is radical policy (even if it is occasionally radical in the opposite direction to my preference).
    Fail quickly, fail fast.
    Adapt and thrive, fail and stagnate.

    As a side effect of having to have the coalition in place before the election (within the party), it encourages the platform to be as wide as possible in order to appeal to an election winning common-ground as well as their voter heartlands. Where consensual systems lead to the coalition after the election (between parties), allowing manifesto's to be ejected, success/failure criteria difficult to establish, and permissive of fringe parties well outside the common ground to succeed, and be a part of policy making.

    There's lots of good things about proportional/consensual politics, but lots of failings too.
    At what point do you assess the success or failure of Brexit?

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO