Coronavirus / COVID-19

[rory_20_uk]

...You believe that your civil liberties are being compromised to save peoples lives from a virus?? Didn't they blatantly scam you in the wake of 9/11 into believing that your civil liberties were being compromised to save peoples lives from terrorists? -Hindsight much??

It's all just another convenient lever to pry with.

I don't think that the USA needs any reason to pry further into its citizens:

Border Patrol can stop and detain for any reason up to 100 miles in from a border. That's almost 2/3 of the entire population right there.
Anything digital can be taken either with or without the rubber-stamp court warrant.
Most police cars have automatic number plate recognition - which can be cross referenced with your cell phone to track.
Riots are responded to with police armed with the sort of equipment that would fight a decent war - except the police have far less training than the military.

If there was a time the government was scared of the People, that is at least 100 years ago.

[Kurando]

I don't think that the USA needs any reason to pry further into its citizens...

In a sense I agree. As all of these circumstances that you mentioned are firmly in place as a result of the Patriot Act et al the government now more than anything needs to know what it's citizens will do about it if those restrictions are put into action. What if they take away freedom of association & Disneyland & team sports & Hollywood and all remnants of the things that made us who we once were? What will we do about it? -Sadly the answer is that we will do nothing, and worse still, that yet again, the vast majority can be bamboozled into thinking that it's all for our own good at the drop of a hat. We are indeed screwed, but I dare say it's not because of COVID-19, that part is just a convenience.

[Montmorency]

What if they take away freedom of association & Disneyland & team sports & Hollywood and all remnants of the things that made us who we once were?

This all sounds cranky.

[ReluctantSamurai]

@Kurando

You know, for someone who requested a wake-up call after all this boring shit is over, you seem awfully intent on making an imprint on this discussion.....just sayin'

the death of one person I care about is not nearly as concerning as the 99.9% of the rest of people I care about being oblivious to having their entire way of life decimated by what is essentially an opportunistic experiment in social control.

Jesus, I'd hate to be one of those 50 or so in your circle of friends/family

Look around. You think that this whole situation is a fabrication simply to gain social control?? When the last infected aerosol droplet has settled, there's going to be hell to pay. Heads of state and leaders of medical emergency responders are going to lose their jobs.

It's all just another convenient lever to pry with

You'll get no argument from me about government intelligence agencies taking advantage of 9/11 to expand their powers, and increase their influence on our lives. But you are comparing apples with oranges. The focus after 9/11 became us vs them; a wartime fabrication that pits Western nations against Islamic nations. A virus doesn't care about religion, doesn't care about politics, doesn't give a damn about anyone's civil liberties. They just do what they do...replicate themselves in as many willing hosts as they can.

What if they take away freedom of association & Disneyland & team sports & Hollywood and all remnants of the things that made us who we once were? What will we do about it? -Sadly the answer is that we will do nothing, and worse still, that yet again, the vast majority can be bamboozled into thinking that it's all for our own good at the drop of a hat

You obviously haven't been paying attention to how this virus works. It absolutely loves (yes, I know, viruses don't have feelings) large, very crowded areas like sports arenas, subway trains, airplanes, cruise ships, etc., etc., etc., because it can infect someone who may not show symptoms for as long as 14 days, if at all. And if you even bothered to read the piece from Bedford labs, you might understand that 1 infection becomes two and then four and so on, until you have thousands before you even know it.

If there had been an outright, and total travel ban placed on countries where the virus was located, then Patient 0 would never have made it to Seattle, and then gone to California, etc., etc., etc. Too bad if you feel like your liberties were interfered with, a whole lot of people in Washington State and elsewhere might still be alive right now. And the instant the virus got here, or wherever you are from, all sporting events are cancelled; Disney World---closed; all schools from K-1 to college---either closed or moved online. If an area starts showing large clusters of infections, quarantine or even total lock-down. Sound familiar? Yep, that's how the Chinese got it under control (at least for the time being), and the scenario is now being repeated in Italy. Look what happened in S. Korea. The government decides not to impinge on the right to have large religious gatherings; one infected person in the Shincheonji Church of Jesus congregates with a thousand or so members of their sect on 18 Feb, and by 23 Feb there were hundreds of new cases and something on the order of 100 new ones every day. By 11 March there were 7,700 confirmed cases of the virus with around three quarters of that total occurring in Daegu and about 63 percent directly linked to the Shinchonji religious group. Do the math. If religious gatherings had had a temporary ban, there would have been over 3,600 less cases. Same story in Iran. No ban on religious gatherings, no postponement of elections (because the powers that be wanted a large voter turnout to legitimize their brand). And look what happened. As of 15 Feb, there were no reported cases (although the virus was likely already there). In less than one month (as of 10 March), there are 8,042 reported infections (very likely grossly under-reported), and 291 deaths. New cases are coming in a a rate of almost 900 per day. Talk to all the families who lost loved ones about civil liberties. You just might find them willing to trade a few weeks of quarantine to have them in the land of the living still.

So....to hell with civil liberties in a situation like world is experiencing right now. Want to increase your chances of not getting sick or dying? Stay home and, you know, actually have a conversation, face-to-face with friends and loved ones instead doing face-time.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

"More than 125,000 people have been diagnosed with Covid-19 in 118 countries around the world, according to the World Health Organization. The total number of deaths is more than 4,600."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-51862347

This is just not OK, this is not "fear porn".

[Montmorency]

Samurai, sorry to say but North Korea is almost certainly affected. They have a lot of labor commuting to and from China. One take.

Good article about the dilemma of social costs in school closures, particularly for a big city like NYC. It's a no-win scenario. I do hope the mayor and governor have a plan to provision services to all the displaced kids when it does finally happen. You're going to see problems if half the kids are infecting their grandparents and half the rest are tying down parents from the workforce. How to keep healthcare workers on the job when their kids have nowhere to go is another issue.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

"More than 125,000 people have been diagnosed with Covid-19 in 118 countries around the world, according to the World Health Organization. The total number of deaths is more than 4,600."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-51862347

This is just not OK, this is not "fear porn".

Covid-19 is a significant global health threat. The media coverage of same is both legitimate information that we need to know, AND "fear porn." That "pornographic" effect is a by-product of the process of broadcast journalism and the 24-hour news cycle, not an attempt at manipulation or pandering.

Journalism teaches its practitioners to focus on the conflict elements within a story, as it is from the conflictual element that a story gains its power/appeal and because that is a primary tool for uncovering those facts that have NOT been revealed. So each story focuses on the problem and its potential damaging effects because those are, by the lights of journalistic norms, THE facts most important to the story. Couple that to not one hour of news from two hosts, but 24 hours of news from 12-20 hosts each of whom repeats those salient facts and THAT is what creates the over-the-top pornographic effect.

A good viewer has to factor this in and sift the facts for themselves to make a practical judgement as to their response. That is what journalism wants you to do and what you should be doing. But to suggest that the level of hype somehow means that the proximate issue is therefore NOT serious is a complete misjudgment. COVID-19 is a world health crisis of significant magnitude and it needs to be handled, at least here in the USA, a bit more definitively than it has been to date.

If anyone was pandering here it was the administration, which held on to the "Things are under control, no need to panic" mantra for a week (or three) too long. Or, even more stupidly, used that mantra while NOT getting stuff prepared to deal with the crisis that CDC and AMRID were almost certainly telling them was about to happen.

As a metaphor, "fear porn" is catchy, but you should remember that porn is, after all, sex and the sex isn't any less real for being hyped, well-lit, and over-produced.

[Montmorency]

Italians singing Bella ciao

https://twitter.com/NicholsUprising/...45438476730369
https://twitter.com/SARS_COVID19/sta...89996601122817
https://twitter.com/leonardocarella/...11958116175879

[Kurando]

This all sounds cranky.

Then I will put it bluntly: ability for a government to predict with certainty how it's population will react under a situation of martial law is beyond invaluable. That goes for a government here, there, or anywhere. For the record I'm not saying the virus is a hoax, just that it's overblown and moreover that it's an opportunity for governments which is right in front of our eyes is being ruthlessly exploited just like 9/11 was.

Funny but, I keep thinking back to the psychologist who more than a century ago invented the concept of Kindergarden. His though process was that if you surround a child with pretty toys and frivolity for the first 6 years of it's life that the child will be powerless to question authority later in life. We are proving him right and acting like a society of impotent sheep whenever authority tests those waters.

I don't want you to think I am not concerned for my circle of 50 close friends or for any of you guys, on the contrary, I am deeply concerned, just not about the potential impact of the virus itself. As I said in the first post "if" I lose friends and neighbours I will take the virus part seriously, until then this whole situation stinks to high heaven of something else. Something concrete which has had ongoing impact on all of our lives, not a sudden impact on them.

[Montmorency]

Then I will put it bluntly: ability for a government to predict with certainty how it's population will react under a situation of martial law is beyond invaluable. That goes for a government here, there, or anywhere. For the record I'm not saying the virus is a hoax, just that it's overblown and moreover that it's an opportunity for governments which is right in front of our eyes is being ruthlessly exploited just like 9/11 was.

What exactly is your theory, then? Describe it, step-by-step. Otherwise you may as well be saying that this pandemic is just an opportunity for mice to eat all our cheese. Lay out your theory and explain the steps.

Funny but, I keep thinking back to the psychologist who more than a century ago invented the concept of Kindergarden. His though process was that if you surround a child with pretty toys and frivolity for the first 6 years of it's life that the child will be powerless to question authority later in life. We are proving him right and acting like a society of impotent sheep whenever authority tests those waters.

That's not what Kindergarten was or is.

I don't want you to think I am not concerned for my circle of 50 close friends or for any of you guys, on the contrary, I am deeply concerned, just not about the potential impact of the virus itself. As I said in the first post "if" I lose friends and neighbours I will take the virus part seriously, until then this whole situation stinks to high heaven of something else. Something concrete which has had ongoing impact on all of our lives, not sudden impact on them.

If you're taking it seriously when your friends or family are dying then it is too late. That's like saying you'll take the threat of war seriously only when there are foreign boots in the capital.

Look at it objectively: if there is a threat, when is the time to begin addressing it? If it helps, start from the point where the virus is a serious threat and could be exploited by a nefarious government somehow. What then?

[Kurando]

What exactly is your theory, then? Describe it, step-by-step?

I already have at length, perhaps it would be better if I simplified it:

Fact: Civil liberties were decimated as legal concepts during and immediately following the 9/11 hysteria.
Theory: Civil liberties are being decimated in actuality during and immediately following the COVID-19 hysteria.

[Montmorency]

I already have at length, perhaps it would be better if I simplified it:

Fact: Civil liberties were decimated as legal concepts during and immediately following the 9/11 hysteria.
Theory: Civil liberties are being decimated in actuality during and immediately following the COVID-19 hysteria.

How, exactly?

We can name specific consequences of the 9/11 hysteria: Devastating wars, increased surveillance, police abuses, torture, unchecked executive war powers, less social trust...

And these were predicted at the time by astute observers, so you have no excuse in vagueness.

And how would you approach the scenario where your fears about civil liberties dovetail with a virus that is in fact a serious threat?

[a completely inoffensive name]

What if they take away freedom of association & Disneyland & team sports & Hollywood and all remnants of the things that made us who we once were? What will we do about it?

LOL, bro my city sets cars on fire and riots every time the Lakers win. YOu think people are gonna wake up one day and accept no more sports?

Bruh, where is your prepper bunker and 50 gallon drum of mac and cheese? I can repair your water filtration system, so you need me when society collapses.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

LOL, bro my city sets cars on fire and riots every time the Lakers win. YOu think people are gonna wake up one day and accept no more sports?

Bruh, where is your prepper bunker and 50 gallon drum of mac and cheese? I can repair your water filtration system, so you need me when society collapses.

Pah - I'm probably the only one of you who can shoot straight and maintain his IW - you wanna be in my bunker.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Pah - I'm probably the only one of you who can shoot straight and maintain his IW - you wanna be in my bunker.

I'm an American. Of course I've shot before. Nothing further than 500 meters though. And I am terrible at skeet shooting, so don't ask me to hunt birds.

But I do want to be in your bunker. Mainly because California earthquakes turn bunkers into cement coffins over here.

[ReluctantSamurai]

For the record I'm not saying the virus is a hoax, just that it's overblown and moreover that it's an opportunity for governments which is right in front of our eyes is being ruthlessly exploited just like 9/11 was

Ok, I'll bite. exactly who is doing the exploiting and exactly who are these nebulous opportunities going to benefit? So far, all your accusations have been rather vague as to specifics....so ditto what Monty said

[Kurando]

Ok, I'll bite. exactly who is doing the exploiting and exactly who are these nebulous opportunities going to benefit? So far, all your accusations have been rather vague as to specifics....so ditto what Monty said

I have no idea and I'm not in a position to even speculate, but similarly if a stranger walks up and starts punching me in the face; it's still self-evident that it is happening even if I can't identify who they are or what their motive is.

[ReluctantSamurai]

I have no idea and I'm not in a position to even speculate

That's what I thought